gpdc

1925 Master question.....

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Rod (& all...)

Many thanks for the time to take & post all the pics you've shared with us.

First time we've seen the drive nut that close & in "fine" detail like that.....

And the "cover" piece....first time ever for that piece.

If & when you should ever need to fix that worn drive pin.....methinks it'd be pretty

easy once you could get at it....ours is only a 3/8" roll pin (also known as "spring" pin)

& I'm betting you could get one @ any local hardware store.....if/when you ever have problems

getting one.....holler & I'll send you some...SAE (3/8") & 10 mm (slightly bigger)......

Our problem still stands & your pictures confirm what we think we know about this very simple arrangement...

and if/when we pull the radiator (possible for another re-core...we'll see) that whole crank drive assembly WILL be out

on the bench & I WILL know the reason why what we're doing is not working.....MIGHT happen today, in fact.....

Rehash: upon insertion over the protruding crank & subsequent engagement of the snouts' pin by the sockets (2) slots & further compression of the spring to engage the internal drive pin all the way to the bottom one of the nuts' helical "skislopes" (we can "feel" all that)............that breaker bar won't turn CW one iota....nada....zip......and yet, remove the breaker bar, push it all in by hand & crank the motor with the starter & the socket duly just begins rotating before the engaged helical "skislope pushes it right out back at ya......and right now......I just dunno..........................

again.....thank you!

It's almost like the there's been a one way clutch bearing machined for & then installed internally in the casted crank snout housing that would act to prevent manual starting & yet still allow the drive shaft to turn CCW to disengage the "skislopes".........and that makes no sense to me at all...............

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Benefits of AACA Membership.

hi again!.......

the weather caught up to us so we've been slow going on the '25....central NY snowbelt season & all,ya know....

Anyway.....Ignition problems....glowy orange exhaust manifold problems....timing problems & more are all being worked on & it seems like we get close on one thing & another two pop up......I'm guessing that's nothing new to most of you guys....

A question:The Marvel has a low speed fuel correction adjustment that was originally flowed & set @ Buick (I've read somewhere) & the book setting is one turn out to line up the round plate notch with the post.....all fine & good...but...full closed (gently!) is in the closed direction PAST the notch....perhaps 1/8 of a full turn......do we go past that setting post & the stop at the next rotation or are we to stop after that initial 1/8 turn or a little less.......need some input on that....that needle taper is very fine as are its' adjusting threads.....

The glowy orange exhaust manifold......anybody wanna take a guess as to how far retarded the timing might need be to cause that......the service manuals' initial setting of 7 deg ATDC dosen't make the glowy orange go away......and the cam seems right 'cause @ TDC on ignition, the proper feeler gages will fit between the valve tip & rocker arm....

This orange glowy exhaust thing can't possibly be correct........

thank all !

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The big knob on the Marvel should be set at the end of the tang just to make it start and idle. Warm up the engine first. Then turn the knob in until just before the engine slows. Then throttle up quickly and adjust it out until it no longer stumbles when increasing the throttle. Note: The big knob only adjusts the fuel/air mix.

That's all there is to it as long as you have the correct spring inside the big knob, your float level is correct, the heat riser tube has no holes, and your jets are not cracked.

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Mark.....it's the round brass plate @ the bottom of the carb that I'm talking about.....

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Without rereading this whole thread again, have you ever done a compression test?

Also, isn't the hole in the bell housing, that you've used to pry on the starter ring gear, also the where you can see the timing marks on the flywheel?

The ni-chrome wire thing you refer to is the ballast resistor. Just go to an auto parts store, (a good one, with guys that have grey hair, instead of acne), and ask for a ballast resistor for a 6V ignition. Or, use an ignition coil with an internal ballast.

You seem to have multiple problems that you're trying to solve simultaneously. For me anyway, that never goes well. Pick one problem, fix it, then move on.

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Jerry,

Thank you for your thoughts...&

...yes, trying to do the one problem at a time approach....concentrating on the ignition now....

New coil, points, condenser ,better crimps on the plug wire (cap) ends ,now pretty close to having all that installed for another try.....

This bellhousings' flywheel access hole points straight down, so it takes both of us to get it to TDC on compression.

The compression we've never checked...certainly is on the "to do" list.

That nichrome wire coil device @ the bottom of the coil is written up in the service manual as a kind of safety valve (my words),that prevents battery drain if the ignition switch is left "on" for too long (assumption here: left on with no other battery drain).....this maybe dosen't make full sense, but the book says that the nichrome (iron wire in '25, I'd guess) coil gets hot, turns orange (which I've seen 1 x) & dosen't flow battery power as well as when it's cold......if we can call that a "ballast" resistor, so be it. I've also read where 6 VDC coils do not require a reduction of power to the points at all.......so, ya....I'm confused.

Getting there....!

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Hi again Jerry.....

the news is SSLOOOOOW progress........

winter set in.....

The orange glowy exhaust manifold is a huge concern....that simply isn't right & I'm thinking that's been a problem with this car from the day my friend received it.....it always overheated & nobody ever picked the hood up.

We got to a point with it where we considered it a good nights' work if he could drive it back into the garage when we were done for the night.

The very last time for that weeks & weeks ago,the motor was just barely running with the throttle wide open and that was a result of a last ditch after dark timing change in one direction or the other...I forget which way I went with it....

And then it quit & would not fire.....no spark....which we'd been experiencing for some time.....

So, now we have a new coil, points, condenser, better clinched spark plug wires & a desire to more accurately set the initial timing.....and I can report that this engine dosen't like the service manuals' 7 degrees AFTER TDC.......

Bob (at Automobilia) has told us the coils on this particular vehicle are problematic......we were needing to clean burned points every time the engine ran & I tried a few nichrome wire combinations to replace the coil at the bottom of the original distributor.....

NOW......on another thread in Pre War....I read where Oregon Desert model 45 is deep into his Marvel & another fellow is carefully fitting the throttle plate to its' venturi block......and this interests me 'cause an orange exhaust manifold can be caused by a lean fuel mix........I'd been playing around with the low speed fuel adjustment of the carb & had actually realized some positive results when the motor would stay running.........

Prior to the new electrical parts (which are sitting on my bench awaiting install)...we'd seen a rather large temperature differential across the actual exhaust ports.....and that pointed to the ignition for problems....maybe.

So, as soon as we get all the new electrical parts on & operating, I will report our results !

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Compression test.

absolutely on the to-do list......new, rebuilt engine or not......

can you explain to me the mechanics of low comp = super hot manifolds?

Thank you!

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I haven't read all the previous threads, but my first thought when I read of a glowing exhaust manifold is a plugged exhaust system, usually caused by a mouse nest, probably at the end of the tail pipe. Just a thought in case you haven't already checked.

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I haven't read all the previous threads, but my first thought when I read of a glowing exhaust manifold is a plugged exhaust system, usually caused by a mouse nest, probably at the end of the tail pipe. Just a thought in case you haven't already checked.

ya Larry.....that was one of our early investigations on this thing....

and that led to a study-up on the intake & exhaust baffling including the heated

intake track.....

No Joy on any of that....

and thanks for the thoughts !

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WELL.......we've been back on it for a while now & great progress has been made.....

   orange glowy manifolds seem to be gone.....

   lot of carb stuff went on....

   ignition now seems to be working & dependable ( thank you Bob's A. for the discussion & the new parts!)

   timing issues persist & that's what brings me back here looking for advice/guidance.....

       I believe we advanced the timing just a bit too far & broke something in the starter gear train......

       likely candidate: the one way clutch/bearing in the STARTER GEARSET.....NOT the the one in distributor drive

Anybody have any experience here?.....we're having trouble removing the larger cross shaft from the top

of the separate cast  "drive tower" the bolts right on top of the bellhousing behind the S/G......with its' bolts removed,this "tower" is loose enough to

see the yoke piece that engages one of the starter drive gears, but with out removing that larger diameter shaft, we'll never

get the "tower" completely out of there as seems to be required to pull the starter gearset out.

Any ideas or help would be greatly appreciated!

As far as our progress so far.....I intend to document it all,add pictures & post for all to see.....there's stuff going on

that should be shared with everybody.

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Have you disconnected  the operating rod that moves the brushes in the starter? If not it wiil not alow the cover to  be removed.

 

To remove the idler shaft, first remove the cotter pin in the front,  the starter/gen may need to be removed, the shaft

 

 can then be pushed to the (rear? I think it only goes one way, don't remember which) to remove the gear. 

 

John

 

 

22-6-55 Sport touring

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John......I believe I've got that part all apart & out.....

              We blocked the starter pedal fully down & had just enough room to remove

              the "pointy" shaft & the cast piece that moves it and they are now sitting on the bench.....

              the advance rod & its' mounting bracket likewise on the bench....that ignition advance cross shaft is the smaller diameter one

             and we could push it easily over toward the drivers side to disengage it from the "tower" after a 'lil bit of dinking around...

         It's that much larger diameter shaft that also goes thru that tower we're having trouble with....cant slide it toward the driver side enough

         to get it to come out of the "tower"....

     I'll take pictures tonite & get them posted........the floorboard (s?) has been out since day one, now we talking about removing the

     very top floorboard piece to allow access to the starter pedal mounting bracket....3 bolts & move the whole mess to the drivers side....maybe

Thank you for your thoughts

   George

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here's a pic of the Drivers side of the problem shaft.....

the smallest circle shows the boss that I was hoping this problem shaft would provrude out of

after I loosened a (pinch bolt?) that I was hoping would allow free left/right movement....it didn't

the oblong circular marking shows the 3/8 extensions,,universal & 1/2 " socket we used to loosed it

the largest oblong circle shows the clear filter we installed after the vacuum tank......

more to follow shortly

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post-143310-0-75323300-1439342087_thumb.post-143310-0-61465800-1439342108_thumb.oops......win 10 newbie learning curve......I hate this shit.............

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the first pic shows the loosened tower....bolts are out....vise grip on problem shaft with the intent of moving it toward the drivers side to get it out & clear the "tower"....

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Remove the two bolts that hold the shaft bracket on the drivers side, if there are two bolts on the other side holding

 

 a similar bracket to the starter idler gear cover remove those also, ( 22 has 4 bolts, 2 on each side that holds

 

  the cross shaft to the back of the engine), you should be able to move the cross shaft more to the drivers side.

 

    John

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gpdc,   I can,t understand why you need  to remove that  tower.  If your able to depress the starter pedal and that shaft is turning  and the gears are engaging onto the flywheel, and the gear disengaging when the pedal is released, there is no need to remove it.  That one way gear (clutch) is meant  to only engage in one direction, and spin in the other direction,  you should be able to turn it with you finger in the other direction.

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Rod.....that gearset is not driving the flywheel......full foot pedal starter engagement results only in the s/g's pinion gear freely spinning at high speed while NOT turning the motor over.......we're thinking we've a damaged one-way clutch/bearing that's not engaging........and that MAY have come about from an advanced timing condition......not sure yet

Is the above picture of your gearset for a right hand drive car?

 

jbbuick22: yup.....that's our conclusion......the '25's starter pedal crosshaft brackets are a little different, essentially it looks like we're going to be doing just what you suggest.......we'll see.....I'll report in........

 

I think the advanced timing returned to the starting gear an opposite rotation force.....while it was cranking at engine starting speed.......and (maybe) destroyed the surface the one way clutch bearings engage for starting......

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THE PICTURE FOLLOWS THIS POST......my bad.....

Here's a pic of some of the things that we've done to this car.....mostly to stop the orange glowy exhaust mainfold problem......all of the exhaust manifold shown here was glowing orange within a couple of minutes of start up.....now, about 700 F is max that we've seen so far with out leaving the driveway.

Moving from left to right:

   The vertical silver shiny thing is a piece of 1/8" dia. tig rod bent & installed to keep the exhaust butterfly in the manifold/exhaust pipe junction open.

   The shiny plate plate behind the updraft intake casting is a piece of stainless that is serving as an exhaust blocking plate.

   The airvalve/dashpot mounting block.....a pot metal piece.....was distorted/warped & swollen.....it was machined square & carefully so that now the air valve blade just rests against the throttle bore in the static position.....previous to this work, it was upwards of 1/4" open.....anybody familiar with this problem will recognize what I'm talking about.....careful removal & being machine square fixes it.

  In another post here in prewar, we found mention of (2) different gas metering jet lengths that were both used in this carb & model year (thank you Marvel !)....this is the long small dia. needle with a taper on the end that is linked to and moves with the throttle and allows fuel enrichment somewhat porportional to throttle position.......using the existing link we had (from the throttle linkage) and the metering jet that was in the car, at "0" throttle opening this jet was positioned up & off its' internal seat somewhere around 3/16" or so......which we think was contributing the fuel flooding condition......NOT the internal fuel bowl float which seems good especially after we resealed it.....so.....I made the 'lil brass connector barrel that you see with the (2) cotter pins sticking out & now, at idle, that metering rod is down just touching the internal jet & starts to move up with the throttles' movement.

  The carb float chamber cover looks too thick because it's a clear polycarbonate piece we made & installed for diagnostic purposes.

  We've yet to re assemble the complete vacuum tank assembly & simply manually fill the firewall tank for our setup & testing requirements.......adding a clear filter (for visual fuel flow) below the tanks' shut off valve was also a good thing........

  The float bowl fuel level is set to 1/16" below the top of the low speed jet tube which is internal to the carb........

On the opposite side of the engine bay.....the original coil, points & condenser were all replaced with parts from Bob's....and now the plugs show spark very consistantly.......Bob was very helpful with that.

  The timing remains a sticking point......partly because the spark advance/retard linkage only allows about half of the total available due to slop & wear in the many linkage connectors & the teeth in the gear segment underneath the steering column that drives it all are well worn....

I'm thinking now that maybe the initial service manual setting of 7 degrees ATDC is correct and may be required for starting gear longevity & then, once running, you manually advance it as required.......we've a ways to go on that point, fixing the broken gearset is #1 toward that.........

all comments/suggestions/critiques/other are welcome!

 

OOPS......just added the picture after this....next page, I think

Edited by gpdc (see edit history)

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