1925 Master question.....

[gpdc]

Jim B in southern Vermont,

    My friend the car owner is interested in your flywheel.....

can you confirm that your flywheel has an Outside Diameter of just about 15 7/16" and has 122 teeth ?

The only difference would seem to be in the casting #'s and would appear to be  -1 and his is -2 at the end.

and if your diameter & tooth count are the same, he's willing to drive to you for purchase if you'd give us a

price and your location or similar contact info as he's

close enough to you for that....... just north of Syracuse, NY

thank you,

  George P.

[Jim Bourque]

George

Both of the flywheels I have are 15 7/16 diameter with 122 teeth. I don't have any idea what the perfect one is worth... I have attached pictures of the other one. Call me at 802 380 2410

Jim

[gpdc]

Hello All......one mystery solved:

    The new/rebuilt engine in this car has a HUGE amount of "stiction" break-away force....enough so that my 250# on the end of a 1/2" breaker bar would NOT MOVE the crank using the front manual crank snout....not one tiny bit.

 Anybody following this thread has read of my pleas for help regarding this.

Last nite, in mounting the new flywheel (thank you again to Jim B !), we HAD to turn the flywheel to get its' (6) bolts in from the backside....as we had to do to remove them (just like the book says....LOL) I used a bar between the (3) clutch-pak towers and rotated the crank in the direction of its' normal rotation & noticed something I hadn't when removing those bolts last week......after the initial rotational break-away using the bar, and if I did what I could do using my third & fourth hands to loose the bar & get hands on the clutch towers, I could keep the engine rotating! BY HAND!!!

This caused me to return to the front crank snout, insert our new to us crank handle (again, thank you Jim B.) & put more force on it than I ever had, broken pieces be damned...and bam.....once broken free, I could turn that motor over fairly easily using the hand crank........

GREAT sighs of relief here as we'd committed to pulling the radiator/front engine mount & crank snout to get this problem FIXED.

All that being said......the rear main cap has yet to go back on, so we'll see what that brings us......neither that bearing nor its'

journal look heated or stressed in any way.

Now......we're looking for thoughts on the main culprit here, which, right now anyway, I believe to be oil related as I've seen this problem before involving the ways of manually operated machine tools.........once you get the table moving, you float along like it's on a bed of marbles......another thought is we simply need to add in some more break-in time to the front & rear seals & babbit bearings.

 We think this motor had very little run time before the vehicle purchase......and maybe 50 mikes since.

   Is there something unique about (poured?) babbit material that might require a light(er) or special purpose 1oil at break-in time?......sounds crazy, just asking.

So....thats the deal thus far.......

We're getting there.

[Larry Schramm]

Hello All......one mystery solved:

    The new/rebuilt engine in this car has a HUGE amount of "stiction" break-away force....enough so that my 250# on the end of a 1/2" breaker bar would NOT MOVE the crank using the front manual crank snout....not one tiny bit.

 Anybody following this thread has read of my pleas for help regarding this.

Last nite, in mounting the new flywheel (thank you again to Jim B !), we HAD to turn the flywheel to get its' (6) bolts in from the backside....as we had to do to remove them (just like the book says....LOL) I used a bar between the (3) clutch-pak towers and rotated the crank in the direction of its' normal rotation & noticed something I hadn't when removing those bolts last week......after the initial rotational break-away using the bar, and if I did what I could do using my third & fourth hands to loose the bar & get hands on the clutch towers, I could keep the engine rotating! BY HAND!!!

This caused me to return to the front crank snout, insert our new to us crank handle (again, thank you Jim B.) & put more force on it than I ever had, broken pieces be damned...and bam.....once broken free, I could turn that motor over fairly easily using the hand crank........

GREAT sighs of relief here as we'd committed to pulling the radiator/front engine mount & crank snout to get this problem FIXED.

All that being said......the rear main cap has yet to go back on, so we'll see what that brings us......neither that bearing nor its'

journal look heated or stressed in any way.

Now......we're looking for thoughts on the main culprit here, which, right now anyway, I believe to be oil related as I've seen this problem before involving the ways of manually operated machine tools.........once you get the table moving, you float along like it's on a bed of marbles......another thought is we simply need to add in some more break-in time to the front & rear seals & babbit bearings.

 We think this motor had very little run time before the vehicle purchase......and maybe 50 mikes since.

   Is there something unique about (poured?) babbit material that might require a light(er) or special purpose 1oil at break-in time?......sounds crazy, just asking.

So....thats the deal thus far.......

We're getting there.

 

I have read your post a couple of times and I am not sure exactly what the condition is.

 

Can you turn the crankshaft over with the crank easily?  If you can not, then the first thing I would do would be to remove the oil pan and start loosing up the rod bearings and main bearings some ONE AT A TIME until you can easily turn the crankshaft over easily with the hand crank.  It does not take a lot of loosening up to determine if that bearing is causing the tightness.

 

I plastigauge all of my babbitted bearings just like inserts to be sure they are the correct size and shim them to get them about .002" +-.

 

If you still have a tight engine then I would probably start looking at the rings assuming the pistons have not been changed.  If someone re-rung the engine and put in rings too large they might be touching on the ends and exerting pressure outward causing excessive drag on the piston, etc.

 

If the pistons were ever changed they might be too big.  You can easily check by putting a .001" piece of shim stock in the cylinder and try to put in the piston without the rings.  It should go in the hole.  If not it could be too large for the engine.

 

With all of that said,  I bought a vehicle that I had the same problem where someone had earlier rebuilt the engine that had never been run.  I did all of the above and the final cause was................some one had put the front crankshaft pulley on backward......   When the pulley was tightened down it contacted the front timing cover and caused the engine to be very hard to turn over.  Once installed fixed all of the rotation problems.  This was not an obvious problem that just jumped out and said "fix me"

 

The engine should always turn over easily by hand with the hand crank.  IMO

 

 

I use GM EOS/ Engine Oil Supplement when I rebuild my engines.

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-88862587?seid=srese1&gclid=COrPyuvG4sgCFQgXHwodwsQOaA

Edited October 27, 2015 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[gpdc]

Thanks for that Larry,

  All of that is good info & ideas.....

Your backward (ly) installed crank pulley is the kind of thing we thought

we'd find if &  when we took the crank snout out & apart on this engine.......won't happen now....yippee!!

I'd started thinking about one way clutch bearings as crazy as that would be in there......

I've seen tight rings nearly instantly gall the cyl walls & start the engine smoking real bad...this engine blows no blue....

I've also seen tight front & rear rope type seals that weren't trimmed properly tighten a new engine...for a while.....

That GM break-in oil seems like a good idea.....with unknown time on the engine (but still thinking it has very little) it

   might not be a bad thing to dump a quart in there.....not a bad idea at all, methinks.....

[Larry Schramm]

Usually use it on the bearings when rebuilding.

[Larry W]

Okay, FWIW, my second car was a '65 Mustang with a 289 cid and 3 speed manual shift. Besides having a clutch chatter, every now and again the engine would be hard to crank. It wasn't due to the battery or starting system, the engine would just seem to bind up. The only way to get it going was to roll along and "pop" the clutch. All this was driving me crazy. I took the clutch apart and resurfaced the flywheel and replaced the disc (twice), also checked flywheel runout and crankshaft end play, all within spec. I never fixed the problem and eventually sold the car. Some years laterI drove a Ford stake truck with a 6 cyl / stick that had the same clutch chatter. The only thing that I can figure is that even though the crankshaft end play was in spec (barely), the lateral position of the crankshaft would shift enough to cause the engine to bind up. I believe that a tighter end play spec would have solved this problem. I don't know if you have a clutch chatter, but the engine binding sounds a lot like my Mustang. My suggestion would be to check and maybe tighten up on the crankshaft end play. I invite others to weighin on my theory. Larry W

[gpdc]

wow......never gave tight end play a thought.....

the pan is still off so I'll check it tomarrow.......

fwiw dept:

      I bought a used '70 Mach 1 'Stang in  '72........pretty 'lil thing with a Cleveland, 410 locker, Hurst ontop of the BW T10

      The car had been parked for months by the original owner when I bought it......

      much later I heard the thinking was it had bent crank......evidenced & experienced by me everytime it wouldn't turn over

        fast enough to start when warm.....

      I learned to carry cables, not to start it warm & always park it pointed downhill.......

      I lived with the inconvience......

     Then one day I installed Hooker headers, street cam, bigger Holley on an Edelbrock intake & a hot ignition.....

        and drove it to Florida the next day......

     The car NEVER had starting problems after that.........

  Can anybody guess why?......

SPOILER ALERT:

       The stock CI exhaust manifolds were transfering too much heat to the starter motor......the headers were routed to minimize that

        and also too..... there may or may not have been a missing heat shield involved from day one....

[Larry W]

Excessive end play (which is what I think I had) can be just as bad, if not worse, than too little end play. At any rate, neither condition is good, so it's worth having a careful look at. Good luck; let us know what you find. Larry W

Edited October 29, 2015 by Larry W (see edit history)

[gpdc]

Well....we're getting closer & closer now........

the tight/hard turning (manual) crank problem may have had something to do with a hard turning distributor shaft....probably a pot metal  dist. housing problem.....

a recent stumbling block is shown in the attached pic.....does anybody want to take a guess as to what function the black wire with the small white paint spot on it has?.......both ends have ring type sta-kon crimp ends (avail 1925?....kinda doubt it).....the larger ring terminal is fixed to the case (a ground) by the hex bolt shown.....the small ring terminal end goes onto the threaded stud that sits above the lifting starter brush & is kinda buried out of sight.......the mystery is in the fact that w/o that wire, the s/g arm won't "motor" at low speed like it needs to.......

we put that wire back in to get the "motoring" & the starting system never engaged so smoothly, effortlessly or smoothly.....we're there on that...

stay tuned!

[ROD W]

gpdc,  The wiring looks different to the shop manual.  But I expect if it all works thats what is important. The blue wire from the top commutator brush goes to terminal  A and then the ignition switch.  The field coil wire comes into terminal  F and then to the ignition coil  and then to the ignition switch.  Power comes from the battery terminal through the amp meter to the ignition switch.  The field coil,  commutator brush and power are all connected through the ignition switch.  When I bench tested my S/G you can see I connected terminal  A and F ( yellow and black wire )  which could then receive power from the + battery terminal.   I don,t know why you have that black earth wire there.

[gpdc]

ya Rod, your pictures, directions & the schematics in the shop manual for a bench test for the "motoring" function were what I was going on.....

couldn't get it to run....then, desperation move.....stuck that black wire back in & it motored......

The car started, ran & charged when he first got it & it had that wire installed....so....methinks a call to Jason is in order next week......

[gpdc]

Hello all......'lil update on the car :

       put it up for the winter around Turkey day last November....ya, 'bout 6 months ago......

     prior to that & more recently, thrash sessions installed a new , 90 yo old flywheel (with the teeth cut into the solid as the original),

   new ignition components included properly crimped 8mm wires & their proper spacer sleeves in the cap, 90 degree terminals on the plugs,etc, etc

new cap & rotor, points & (a biggie, me thinks), the capacitor ( ref here: L Bibarlows' problem with burned points....we had it) & a (correct) replacement distributor (more thanks Jim B ).......and various other bits, pieces & parts.......so.......we're now successfully driving around the yard with it & dealing with the over amp draw seen when "motoring" the s/g......which (it seems) has a possible field coil short to ground problem.

 The motor sounds so sweet at idle, it'll make your heart melt.........the whole system will get a super tuning once we get this amperage draw problem figured out & solved............

& I'm not sure if I voiced it, the problem with the hand crank was system "sticktion".......I could turn it with the pan & the rear main cap off......

   in installing the new flywheel....I had to.............& I could turn it from underneath the car using (gently) a bar between the clutch towes......AMAZED, I was !!

I believe now it's an oil problem that the starter motor easily overcomes....truth be told, we don't really need to hand crank it any more............(maybe!)

The orange glowy exhaust problem and subsequent (associated?) water overheating SEEMS to be history.....contributing factors could include accurate ignition timing, proper Marvel carb settings & carb heating component adjustments comlimentary to todays available fuel. 

again, thanks to all who chimed in........

GPDC

   

[AzBob]

GPDC, That's great you've got '25 master up and running and have solved most of the previous problems. 

[gpdc]

seems it !!!!......now, onto other stuff....so,....I'm asking you, or any other reader if the S/G coil from a Delco 249 S/G (from a '23 6 cyl) is

the same as the coil in the # 268 S/ G for our Master 6 ?..........