gpdc

1925 Master question.....

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Rod......THANK YOU...!!!!

Your crank pic is printing as I type so I can show the car owner.....we'd made one last nite from an old spark plug socket and 1/2" breaker bar....knowing we were going to use it to set the timing today......stuck that baby over the snout, pushed the spring in & NADA..........that shaft could NOT be turned........out comes the service manual which shows an engine section view & it's too simple to screw up......but we couldn't get the motor to rotate..........so we gave up & went back to laying underneath the vehicle, screwdriver/prybar against the flywheel teeth thru the access port......and I can now say that @ full manual retard the #1 plug fires exactly @ 7 degrees ATDC.........and we'll seewhere that takes us tommarrow, hopefully.......thank you.....

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Benefits of AACA Membership.

Rod......or anybody......this is the modified 13/16" (20.6mm) spark plug socket that will not allow us to turn the crank of the '25-45....as it sits now.......I'm thinking I need to remove the metal shown highlighted with a magic marker flow pen and maybe that'll clear what ever it is that preventing rotation now....Rod, I can see from your picture that there's something else going on at the very end of your crank.....would I be close with this modification?

thank you......!

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This is just a guess, but, it looks like the milled slots in the socket might be just a little on the deep side. The end of the socket pushes the washer and spring in OK but the shaft is not being pushed in enough to engage the starting nut. Like I said - this is just a guess.

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas Doo Dah

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I think you might find it difficult to turn having made those holes so wide on the crank handle - on the original they're probably about 7mm. The real one does have a flat top on it so you shouldn't need to cut it away for that reason, however it is also about half the length of the one you've made there. I assume that it's still loose and floppy if you try and spin with it?

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Terry & _Hunter.....

I took about 1/16" off the front of the socket (in a lathe, so it's a nice square cut), leaving the pin proud of the edge just a few thousandths when it's pushed in against the spring.....maybe .030" or so.......that way I KNEW I was pushing on the pin as far as it would go......experiment: tool full pushed by me with no breaker bar....just a short 1/2" extension & engaging the starter by a second person will spin the socket CW slightly then spit it right out toward me to disengage the internal drive pin as the starter motor picks up speed enough.....& I'm thinking that's exactly what should be happening.....

This socket/tool started out as a standard 13/16" spark plug socket.....I drilled a (slight) clearance diameter (13/16") internally almost all the way to the 1/2" square drive in it (no loose "wobble") .......thinking I boo boo'd by going that deep.....I made a 3/8" (or so) long spacer to just fit into the bottom of the drilled cavity & put a 5/16" tapped hole thru it to use a bolt to contact the very snout of the crank & push it it at the same time the slots engaged the drive pin...STILL....no joy............the drive pin is 3/8" diameter (about 1/2mm shy of 10 mm) & my slots are just clearing that for good, solid engagement.....WHAT on earth am I missing....gotta be something so simple that I'll kick myself when we figure it out............HELP....!!!

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and I haven't cut the "ski slopes" /clearance away (marked in red in my picture,above) 'cause a second real close look at Rods' crank shows none of that.........

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Mr Hidden......good thoughts on the loose & wobbly....I just re-looked @ my pic & it does give you that impression (wide & loose slots).....I used a 5/16" endmill to cut the slots & that gives the impression of wide slots looking at my picture......the actual slots are a very nice fit over the pin & the internal hole (drilled in a lathe) was made with a 13/16" diameter drill which provided a hole that just clears the crank snout........so....no loose & wobbly....WHATam I missing here........

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when you go to use your crank handle is it loose and floppy even when you try and have it pushed in? On the original it will feel loose and floppy until you push it and it will have a fairly strong amount of resistance when you try to turn it

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Mr Hidden:

The socket/extension "feels" right when I put it over the crank snout, engage the sockets' slots over the outer drive pin & push further in.....if I push in slowly, in stages I can feel forward motion stop at the end of the helical drive nut, then as I turn it a bit I can feel it push in further and twist slightly as it settles into the bottom of the driven slots of that helical drive nut.....all that is against the compression of the return spring.........I then attach the breaker bar or a 1/2'' ratchet to turn it CW & I can get absolutely no movement....none.

I'm looking at the service manual (supposedly for this vehicle) right this minute & seeing their engine section showing this assembly & it is different from what we've got......our snout sticks out some, then the outer 3/8" diameter drive pin, then a washer to distribute the compressed springs' load....the service manual shows the cast housing extending out even with or maybe a bit longer than the drive snout....such that any manual crank "socket" would need a small diameter than the internal diameter of the extended cast housing snout............maybe there's something there that we're missing on & I'll study that......hard to believe though, given that engine rotation using the starter will push the socket/extension out toward me as I'm pushing it in before starter motor engagement happens..............man......something so simple & I'm missing it.........

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gpdc, Am I misunderstanding something here but are you sure it's supposed to be timed at 7 degrees ATDC. I don't have the specs for 25 but in the 24 owners manual it says 7 degrees without reference to before or after TDC. I think if it doesn't say the assumption is that it's BTDC. Having it timed after TDC could make it overheat and cause the exhaust manifold to get red hot. Also I believe once you have the engine started you should advance the spark lever fully. Thus your timing will end up closer to 17 BTDC. This is probably clear as mud but that's my 2 cents.

On another note I may have a crank handle that would fit. What is the diameter of the "crank snout?" I'll measure my spare crank handle too.

Dave

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post-101117-143142808994_thumb.jpgDave B...#1: thank you for responding....

your comments re timing are not "mud" & very clear to me.....we've a chart in one of our books/service manuals that notes 7 ATDC.....& YA! that seems way off....NEVER seen a motor with the initial ATDC ......that said, supporting info for that could be the actual marks on the flywheel (7 deg ATDC) & following the correct rotation of the crank, the fact (as you've noted) that the manual advance can adjust timing to BTDC...& our book chart.....

we've only got 5 or maybe 7 degrees available from the manual adjust when the lever is @ its' built-in stops.....not the 10 that your post implies....it's taken up in the linkage & the meshing gear segments' "slop" methinks.....we may need to get that back somehow......testing should (re)commence this afternoon & I'll report back in then......the attached picture is from Rod W (in Queensland, no less!) & just about matches our snout....it mearsues a very few thousandths shy of 13/16" (.8125") diameter.....interesting is that we have a return (out) compression spring behind the 3/8" dia. drive pin AND neither his nor ours match the service manual section view......still working on THAT one for sure.....imo, we need a manual crank, period & we'd sure be interested in your extra/spare piece..

thanks again...!

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Maybe a bit off base, but the manual on my '18 6-45 says first:

PLACE THE SPARK LEVER IN THE FULLY RETARDED POSITION. (Very important if you ever hand crank the car - you dont want to fire before TDC. )

Then time to the 7° mark (approximately 1" past top dead center).

So.. given that when the car is running you advance the spark to a more normal position, thus giving you the typical BTDC firing when running. Whatever that might be.

I expect your '25 is the same

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Don,

Thank you for the reply......

& yes, that is exactly where we're at & what we've done for initial timing.....that initial 7 degrees is AFTER the TDC mark....IF the flywheel was positioned correctly @ re-assembly....and we believe all is well in that regard based on #1 piston position.....we'll be starting it @ the confirmed-with-timing light initial timing (the 7 deg ATDC) later this afternoon....I'll report back if the cherry red exh manifold problem goes away of not...!

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gpdc, I stand corrected re the timing. I got the 17 BTDC from the '27 manual. Only two years later but way different, I guess.

I have attached a couple of pictures of the crank handle. The ID of the business end is just over 7/8 so should be a good fit. I'll send you a PM

Dave

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Been reading my Shop Manuals from different years. The top pic on the left is from 1925 Master six, Operation and Care, It just says to set at the 7 degree mark on the compression stroke, with the spark lever retarded.

Top right is from 1919 - 20 Reference Book. Saying to (turn engine to 7 degree mark which is approx one inch after dead centre) with the spark lever in the retard position.

Bottom Pic is from 1926 -27 shop Manual , saying to fully advance the spark lever and set at the 17 degree mark and not to confuse between the 7 and the 17 degree marks.

But this is what Dave B said when the spark lever is advanced it is 17 degrees BTDC.

Does this only make it more confusing.

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Guys,

Thank you for the info & pics.....

Where we've left off for the night is:

after several starts, it looks like the exhaust manifold still heats to much & too quickly......the heat gun is showing 700 + degrees w/i a minute & it quits reporting at a temperature much higher than that.....can't remember the number exactly.....

We developed an ignition coil problem that has to do with the coiled iron wire wrapped around & in the ceramic disk @ the bottom of the coil....namely, the wire is old, fragile & has burned thru a # of times.....& I've taken the broken ends & carefully twisted them back together.....ever shortening them.....tonite.....no joy on that fix.....so......I made up a coil from a roll of .030" Ni Chrome wire I had, substituted it for the original & repeatedly burned the points to where they were uselessly burned & failed to get the spark to the plugs.....tomorrow, I'll take some time & get the proper length of the same Ni Chrome wire to reduce the 6 volts from the battery to about the 2.5 that I previously measured after the first ("fix").....can you say "cobb job"....lol.......

Probably the biggest problem today was the Marvel float bowl running dry.....& we finally proved that to ourselves by concurrently letting the engine starve to death & die AND closing off the valve @ the bottom of the vacuum tank....then removing the top of the carb float bowl & observing the low,low fuel level.......ergo, we've got a delivery problem to be investigated this weekend........we'll start by manually filling the vacuum tank & seeing how it wants to run......gotta be thinking that ANY impediment to flow in the fuel line from the tank to the vacuum tank line is a bad thing....& we've already removed an in-line fuel filter that was after the (restorers') electric fuel pump (near the gas tank) ......that was used ONLY to initially fill the vacuum tank & nothing else........and tomorrow methinks that pump & its' regulator are gonna go bye bye.......especially if the motor wants to run off the manually filled vacuum tank.......

So...the jury is (still) out on the initial timing 'cause we can't get it to run long enough.........

and Dave B....I don't understand the PM process very well.....but I'm sure we'll make a deal on your spare manual engine crank....& I'm about 50/50 on whether the correct piece will work or not & want to give it a shot....

thanks again all.......gpdc

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Bubba.....just saw your post & pics.....many thanks...especially helpful is the tape measure.......

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gpdc, As the engine is starting and running, I feel you have the timing fairly close. I think you need to look at why the engine is so difficult to turn by hand. I can turn my engines using the crank handle with the spark plugs in, and with the plugs out no effort is required at all. Your socket to go over the crank handle shaft should work. Photo shows starter shaft fully pushed in, there is still room for the spring to be pushed in further, so if the slots are a bit deeper it shouldn,t be a problem. The inside of the crank handle shaft is the same as the outside, that you can see. ( a pin going through the shaft ) When you push the shaft in it engages with the nut that holds the crankshaft timing gear on. I was hoping to take a photo, but could,t find one. This nut is similar to the crank handle slots, But it engages only going in the clockwise direction when shaft pushed in, you can turn the crank handle anti- clockwise ( it does not engage ) Which is important when hand starting so you don,t break your wrist or arm when the engine starts. You can push the crank handle shaft in by hand or using your socket and feel it lock in when turning clockwise, turning anti-clockwise you will feel the pin lift over the top of the nut then drop into the next slot. There is nothing complicated in how it works, just difficult to explain. If your engine was rebuilt you would expect it to be tighter, but you should still be able to turn it by hand.

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Rod,

Thank you for the pic......

What do you think the pin that stands proud of the starter shaft housing is?......up 'till now I've been thinking it's another zerk fitting we see all over this car.....maybe not so......

The feature or "thing" that prevents rotation (or, perhaps,won't allow manual rotation) is what we need to identify.....w/o removing the radiator & some of the front end, (I hope!)....lol

Under the car, I can EASILY rotate the crank using a screwdriver against the flywheel teeth thru the bell housing hole that is (probably) there just for that....

thanks, gpdc

Also too......anybody know what a good, points compatible/safe voltage between ground & the contact points wire should be?

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gpdc,

The pin on top that stands proud of the starter shaft housing is to hold the cover on. There is a tubular cover that goes over the crank snout and that pin holds it on.

Dave

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gpdc,

The pin on top that stands proud of the starter shaft housing is to hold the cover on. There is a tubular cover that goes over the crank snout and that pin holds it on.

Dave

HMMMM.......possible first clue as to our problems......imo...........

can I assume that this "cover" piece is missing from both our car and Rods' ? (check his pics)

AND....that this cover piece "hold-in" pin is possibly a press fit (roll pin or other)

in the housing proper.....& that MAYBE the farside (internal) end of that pin is

causing the no-rotation-upon-insertion problem we're getting...?....YA.....I know it's a reach,

but then what's obvious here is NOT....somehow.....

thank you for the input....gpdc......(mechanical contrivance detective)

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and maybe the "tubular cover" has a keyhole/slot "lock-in" feature that keeps it in place...?

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gpdc, Internals of crank starter shaft. the pin in pic 3 doesn,t look very healthy, The pin in pic 4 loks better. Pic 5 is the cover Dave B was talking about. The slot is on the other side.

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Edited by ROD W (see edit history)

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