gpdc

1925 Master question.....

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Rod & Tony & ALL.....

I feel that with your help, we're getting closer.....the owner/operator tells me that it's ALWAYS ground badly upon starting since day one of his possesion & a part of that problem has to be the high rpm engagement speed that we're seeing WHEN we see motor rotation at all.....it's a sometimes thing......so, I'm thinking the comm needs a good cleaning...sanding with light sandpaper & the biggie must be the timing of starter pedal location to brush movement.....any ideas as to how we change or set it to specification?....something off the "pointy" shaft maybe?.....

we've gotta get the motor comm turning by that ignition switch first, I'd guess.......

working on that tomarrow afternoon as time allows.....

I did get pics posted last nite.....more & better one's to follow for sure...

thanks again for your time, advice & guidence....!

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gpdc, The sliding gear connecting the starter and the flywheel ring gear should start to engage before the starter brushes actually come into contact with the commutator so there is a minimum of crunching as the starter gear is only turning slowly. Possibly if new starter brushes have been installed, they may be too long and the starter motor is operating before the gears are engaging

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from memory there is no adjustment on the pointy shaft the adjustment is done by bending the arms that make contact with the shaft which is part of the brush holders you can adjust starter motor and generator bush individually best to do this with battery disconnected

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Rod & Tony......you guys are the best..!

With your help & a reread of sections of the Shop Manual, I'm getting a much clearer mind set as to how this whole thing works.....NEVER would I have thought to bend something on a 90 year old car to make an adjustment...and I'm certain that's what we're goning to find is required and the new starter brushes that require that bending procedure are a definite possibility because this car was a total rebuild....SO......later today, we get to explore the simple, mechanical elegance of 1925..!....lookiing forward to it.....& we'll let you know what we find......

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hi it would be good to now how you get on I would remove battery before playing inside starter generator it would be a shame to short something out and do damage tony

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hi it would be good to now how you get on I would remove battery before playing inside starter generator it would be a shame to short something out and do damage tony

Guys, yesterday was breakthrough day.....it's all coming clearer.....the motor/charger top brush (on the smaller diameter comm) is very worn (short) so I bent the brush holder down and that was a step in the right direction as the motor is now turning slowly with the ignition paddle switch in the "on" position.....just like it should be....the "timing" of the starter gearsets' engagement & top STARTER brush contacting the comm was off, so I am adjusting that gearsets' engagement position by moving that shaft that has a bolt & locknut adjustment holding it in place....guessing that shaft is direct to what must be (or act as) the throw-out yoke to move the starter/ring gear engagement gearset. I elongated the (2) mounting screws for the top MOTOR (not STARTER)brush & we were in the midst of working with that when we ran out of battery.....charger time for the battery & new brushes for the whole gen/motor will get ordered today....& I'm betting they'll be a bunch longer than what we're working with now......

GETTING THERE...!!....YIPEE!!!

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All.......waiting for new brush set now.....have them Tues or so....."Frank" (in CT?) has sold all his stock of them to another fellow in one of the upper mid west states (USA) .....and it makes sense to install brandy new ones rather that cob around with worn out brushes....we'll see....

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gpdc,

When adjusting brushes , the gen brush must lift before the starter brush contacts the armature. Sometimes new gen brushes are too long.

Good Luck,

JB

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gpdc,

When adjusting brushes , the gen brush must lift before the starter brush contacts the armature. Sometimes new gen brushes are too long.

Good Luck,

JB

and the above noted info may have been the most important info we rec'd to correct the badness.....

anyway......I hope the this will bring this to the top of the forum posts...we'll see....

Attached are some pics of the vehicle....clearly showing WOOD froes/spokes on this 1925 Master 6

& that bit of info is for the Canadian dig people......cool work....I wish I was you......

This car was purchased restored/rebuilt from the north mid west by the owners' son as a present his dad....the restorer did a hell of a fine job...all the " 'lil bit stuff" is in place & operational.......

That said, from day of delivery, it's run hot...as noted in the restorers' working notes......

and then one bad day.....It simply wouldn't start & there is sat for months......tear in its 'lil eye ball....

Enter me....FOO (friend of owner)......the s/g needed attention that was way more the learning curve on our part than anything else.....long story short....we got it.....kinda......mostly......

Next up was the discovery that the distributor rotor can freewheel unless the bolt/nut "under" the knurled nut at the bottom of the distributor is tight......and you better have the rotor pointed at the correct plug wire when you snug it.........

Now it turns over & actually runs......kinda....mostly.......

THE BIG PROBLEM: CHERRY red exhaust manifold & associated problems......

We did find the heating butterfly in the exhaust tube was (we think!) about 90 degrees out of position......its' link from the "throttle plate" allows that misassembly......

What we're seeing is (we THINK/thought) fuel delivery problems associated with the vacuum tank type gravity feed fuel supply to the Marvel float bowl.....the fuel delivery to the vacuum tank had been augmented by a low pressure electric fuel pump (with a dash on/off switch) that is used ONLY for initially filling the vacuum tank after the vehicle has sat for a while (I suspect).....this fuel line also had a filter after the fuel pump.........which equals more impediment to the suction flow of the fuel........

Also I put a clear bowl filter in the GRAVITY feed line to the Marvel........more impediment...????

FWIW dept: the carb has been apart as much as we can a couple of times now & no crap/obstructions were evident.........the low speed vertical tube is a clear hole...small, yes....but it's clear......

Still....we get that crazy heat from the exhaust manifold........

Today, we're going to advance the ignition timing incrementally & see what happens......

SO.......all thoughts on WHERE that initial timing SHOULD be (book setting of 7 degrees ATDC 2aside) & how much flyweight advance is in the distributor would be GREATLY appreciated......

and large thank you's to Mr Earl,Mark Shaw,hidden_hunter,Rod W from Queensland,DonMichelett,Tony Buick & jbbuick22 for all the previous help......we used it all...!

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gpdc:

Just caught this thread. You have now graduated into the antique Buick technical expert club. Most of the course is trial by fire! I know personally I could not have gotten this far on my 1925 Standard if not for the help of all the wonderful generous people on this forum. The only thing that cured my overheating was to do a re-cored radiator. The honeycomb radiator that was on the car was supposedly cleaned and was pronounced good for service. A short drive (around the block) would have it boil over. Motometer topped out. I could not touch the radiator without being burned. One could feel hot and cooler spots on the face of the radiator. After new core. Drove the car about 10 miles today and after 40 min of stop and go driving the red on the motometer was just barely visible. Touching the face of the radiator it was comfortably warm. I fought with this for over a year and a half re-cleaning the complete system several times till I had the new core done. post-79073-143142800406_thumb.jpg Back flushing the block.

It seems most people who restored these cars seemed to like Red. Mine is to be Brewster green and a local fellow with a 1925-45 originally painted it the correct Cobalt blue. Then repainted it light blue. post-79073-14314280043_thumb.jpg On the other hand the one you are working on is a great looking car!

Best of luck:

Larry

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Larry,

Thx for the radiator info.....a re-coring has always been in the picture.....

And the biggie now.....what timing do you run initially?...if memory serves, & I'm not near

our service books right now, both the Standard & Master 6, for '25, are supposed to be set @ 7 ATDC

& then the centrifugal mechanical advance kicks in with increased engine speed.

Can you say you're seeing/feeling a lot of heat in the exhaust manifold?........on my friends car, you can't hold

your hand over the tail pipe outlet @ the back of the car.....way too hot for that.......

Also to...in the model designation (1925-25, in your case).....where does the second set of two digits (the -25) come from....what do they mean...??

Thank you!

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All Buick has a second numer as well as yours.I scanned some years of them just to show you how it works.

Leif in Sweden.

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Thank you Lief......but I can't read it...the print is too small even after screen captures & zoom-ins & the like......

can you just tells us what the last two digits for a 1925 "Master 6" could/would/should be?

many thanks......

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Lief......WOW.....& thanks!......NEVER would'a guessed that they're 27 different models associated with 1925 Buicks....thats incredible........printing those jpg's now for the owner to review later today.........

Thank you!

gpdc

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Therfor it`s very importen ALWAYS tell what year and model it`s when asking for help or asking for parts! Not only tell it`s a Master or Standard.

Leif in Sweden.

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gpdc, As you can see from Leif,s scan, your car is a 25- 45, the 45 means it is five seat master tourer on the 120" wheelbase chassis. If you have not already done so, it would be a good idea to disconnect all that carburetor heating mechanism, it is unnecessary with todays fuels. Remove the carburetor and heat riser as in pic 1, and block off the back with a thin sheet of metal where the heat enters from the manifold. Ensure the inner tube has no holes ( you won,t be able to get the car to run properly if it does) these can be replaced. Also block off the other end where it enters the lower end of the manifold. These cars were,t designed to have an electric fuel pump ( too high pressure ) My 1920 Buick had one when I bought it, causing flooding, no problems once removed.

Rod

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Rod.....ya....we did remove the carb/heat riser & found the heat butterfly possibly out of phase about 90 degrees or so.....the linkage allows for that mis-assembly....so....we freed up that butterfly (it was stuck in the almost closed position)...cleaned up everything as much as possible & reassembled it & started the engine after verifying all the linkages doing what we THINK they should be doing in the carb heat OFF position......again & as always, WAY too much heat from the manifolds right off the bat.....we don't run it too long like that 'cause I'm allergic to glowy exhaust manifolds.........

And I'm thinking this is indicative of very late timing.........

So....today, and for the first time, we went at it with a timing light to try to identify the exact firing point of #1 cylinder......& we weren't even seeing the 7 ATDC (white paint) mark on the flywheel......so.....I reset the rotor its' width (or thereabouts) to advance it & STILL weren't seeing the flywheels' timing mark......

SO......it's a PITA to crawl under the car & use screwdriver against the flywheel teeth to lever the crank around to TDC on compression.....so....I took a 13/16 hex deepwell socket & cut a slot in it to match the drive pin on the HAND CRANK snout and can't move the crank using it & a breaker bar................so....I'm here surfing tonite to try & figure out just what's up with that failure....& it all looked so simple to do....lol......

Now, to return to your suggestion of blocking the (2) heat sources to the riser tube.....ya, I can & will make some thin stainless steel plates for that.....and....are you saying this is a requirement to use todays' fuels......do we need to do that or are those plates an option....?

MANY THANKS for your time......

we'll get there......

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Rod/Anybody, also too.....that electric fuel pump is for initial fill only & not for running......and I just saw a whole bunch better idea that will happen this weekend or sooner.....the OutBoard motor squeeze bulb.....that WILL happen

Do you (or anybody) have any input on the initial timing of the 25-45 motor?.....anything ATDC is (to my mind) crazy.....especially with a steering wheel mounted spark advance/retard....unless the distributor itself has a BUNCH of centrifugal advance in it.....& I've no info re that.......

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Any....while I'm on a roll here.....floor boards are out......we put a knife edge type battery cut off manual switch in weeks ago while we work thru these problems.....seems to have been a very good idea

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gpdc, Yes the Shop Manual says 7degrees. I remove the spark plugs when turning the engine over with the crank handle, makes it much easier. If the engine has been rebuilt maybe the camshaft timing is out or the flywheel has not been put back on in the correct position. A cracked head gasket will cause over heating. Check the compression on all six cylinders.

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Could somebody please post a picture of the business end of the manual crank of a '25-45 ?

thanks, much appreciated...!

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gpdc, With the spark plugs removed and no compression, the engine should turn very easily by hand ( using the crank handle )

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