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1925 Master question.....


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new guy to the site here....

A friend has a really pretty restored '25 Master 6......that has overheated from day one of his possession...the overheating is even noted in the restorers' notes......so...long story short, I'm working to help him get away from that......does that engine even have a t'stat in the water line anywhere?....I can find no diagram showing it & no mention of it in either the original shop manual for it nor the "Reference Book".......gotta start somewhere..!

It has also just recently developed a starting problem where the ammeter shows a 30A draw when he turns the key on & the starter gear shaft needs a hammer tap to retract it......so, its not running @ the moment.......

Many thanks in advance for anything you can offer us...

gpdc

Phoenix, New York

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Just a few possibilities of what might cause overheating, taking into acccount that the restorer noted it.

Is the water pump too effective? By that I mean if the impeller has too many vanes it might be pushing the water through the radiator too fast for it to be cooled properly.

Was the engine block cleaned out completely when it was restored? Crud in the water jackets will block the water passages and radiator.

Is the radiator doing its job? Assuming it had a new core at restoration time it should be ok, but if not....

Is the valve and the spark timing correct?

Re the starter I wonder if the armature is bent?

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Mr. New Zealand....

Wow, I do thank you for your reply !

And I can tell you this:

"Is the water pump too effective? "....could be, I'm told that with the motor running, the water really churns looking down into the radiator.....that was behind my question of where/if there's a thermostat in the system....

The restorer has added an over flow tank under the drivers' side running board area....we found a kink/small leak in that line yesterday.....not to sure why or how that would/could be related to the over heating.....

Blocked water passages....always a concern...probably need to look a little deeper into that one as just eyeballing the churning water in the top of the rad isn't conclusive....

Spark timing is stock @ the required TDC setting then manually reset from there by the driver...SHOULD be ok, we be looking # that too, for sure......

Valve timing would/could affect the engine temp?.....if it were that far off, would the motor still start & run correctly?

Last: The bent armature thought is a good one.....I'll put a dial indicator on it asap & find out.....90 years has a way of creeping up on mechanical stuff in new & unexpected ways, for sure......

So: thanks for those thoughts & ideas & I keep posting..........

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Simple and cheap checks for overheating:

Verify that the bottom hose into the pump is relatively new and has a spiral wire in it. This will keep it from collapsing while running.

Advance the timing a bit so it will still run OK, & check to see if it runs cooler.

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Simple and cheap checks for overheating:

Verify that the bottom hose into the pump is relatively new and has a spiral wire in it. This will keep it from collapsing while running.

Advance the timing a bit so it will still run OK, & check to see if it runs cooler.

Thank you Mark for that.....I will certainly look @ that when next it runs.....

still looking for a thermostat, either installed location or existance.....haven't settled on either one as yet..... I'm that green to this car......

Tonite we found a loose (imo) fan belt....this car has the "V" belt conversion & a torsion spring belt tension adjustment....and the fan will turn easily with only hand pressure on a blade.....not the hot set-up methinks......BUT.......gotta get it running first.......battery way up to snuff....no starter shaft "whirring" sound with the dashs' "ignition" switch engage (but a 20A draw noted on the ammeter)...and the starter footpedal, when depressed by my foot, will give you a couple of engine rotation "grunts" then nada.....except the sound of my hammer taping on a shaft of some purpose the stays out, protruding toward the passengers' feet from its' housing ..(floor board removed)......

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Mr Hidden......Is a "Motometer" what I might know as an ammeter?.....a current draw indicator....an analog device with a needle that moves when you turn the lights on?.....IF SO....YES!....the car has one.....and it's reporting a 20 amp draw from simply turning the "ignition" dash switch to on.....which (I'm told) SHOULD cause the start motor armature shaft to begin turning....and it is not....do you (or any reader) think we have a brush problem..?........there is a tin cover over the end of the Delco unit that hides where the wires go....we'll remove it tomarrow nite......

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Mr Hidden......Is a "Motometer" what I might know as an ammeter?.....a current draw indicator....an analog device with a needle that moves when you turn the lights on?.....IF SO....YES!....the car has one.....and it's reporting a 20 amp draw from simply turning the "ignition" dash switch to on.....which (I'm told) SHOULD cause the start motor armature shaft to begin turning....and it is not....do you (or any reader) think we have a brush problem..?........there is a tin cover over the end of the Delco unit that hides where the wires go....we'll remove it tomarrow nite......

Hey mate, a motometer is the temperature gauge a lot of cars had fitted to their radiators (it screws in the top) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyce_MotoMeter They were an optional accessory here in Australia

Is it the pedal not retracting? from memory (I'm at work) it essentially just pushes down on a button on the top of the starter - what happens if you just press down on that

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gpdc, Firstly you need to get the starter pedal so it is retracting properly. There are three oiling points for the starter shafts and pedal/button. Remove your wooden toe boards so you can get to them. You can see the oil hole in pic 1 for the starter pedal. In pic 5 at the bottom centre you can see the oiling hole for the shaft. There is a spring inside which returns the pedal to the up position (non starting position). The third hole is at the back of the starter /generator, at the top right of pic 5. This is for the shaft that engages and disengages the starter and generator brushes. As you probably know, the stater and generator are one unit. When you turn on the ignition there should be a clicking sound , this is the clutch at the front of the distributor. Remove that plate at the back of the S/G and you can see the brushes. Generator brushes on the small commutator and starter brushes on the large commutator. When the starter pedal is disengaged the gen brushes are engaged and starter brushes disengaged. Get somebody to stomp on the starter pedal and you will see the gen brushes disengage and the starter brushes engage. If this does not happen there is a problem with the linkages.

the linkage arm can be seen in pic 4. There is an earlier thread, I think by Hentzee talking about the operation of the brushes. There is also a small black wheel that runs on the starter shaft, which can be seen in pic 4.if this is not turning properly on the shaft it will be more difficult to depress the starter pedal and operate the brush mechanism. As this S/G is out of the car the there is no round shaft.

I don,t think 25 had a thermostat I have a newer radiator which has a thermostat pic 3. I think thermostats came out in 27. Mark might let us know if his 24 has one. As far as over heating goes, carry out the steps mentioned in previous posts. When I turn on my ignition switch the amp metre shows a discharge of 10 amps

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Rod.....thats a world of info for us...THANK you..especially for the pics...today was an "off" day for the '25....this weekend we'll get to it...on step @ a time.....

Mr HIDDEN: re the Radiator "cap", there's a very elaborate/ornate screw in top that has a chain- like dangly thing hanging down from it that might go into the water stream.....we can't guess what it is/does or how it might work.....is THIS the motometer you're asking if the car has?

Gonna take some/a lot ! of pics shortly so you guys know what we're dealing with.....

AND...thaks again ALL....!

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How clean is the radiator and does the water flow freely. I had a '32 that had been stored for years. It would run hot when I first got it going. While the radiator looked OK at first, after a little running a bunch of crap was pumped into the top of the radiator. All I did was remove the radiator, turn it upside down, back flush it with water and an incredible amound of crud came out. The car ran very cold after than and I had to connect the front shutters up (the '25 doesnt have those) to get the engine to proper running temperature

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For some info about motometers and what the Buick ones look like. Check out this link http://www.tonepro.net/Tone_Productions/My_Albums/Pages/Moto_Meters_Automobile_Makes.html

WOW......never been aware of these things.....very cool device & ya, I can see where you might want one unique to your vehicle......thank you for that link...I printed every Buick motometer & this weekend we'll compare pic's to the real piece on the car.......this is cool....

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WOW......never been aware of these things.....very cool device & ya, I can see where you might want one unique to your vehicle......thank you for that link...I printed every Buick motometer & this weekend we'll compare pic's to the real piece on the car.......this is cool....

They're a nice finishing detail on the car, there are some debates around the accuracy of them but mine seems accurate enough. They pop up on ebay quite often, and some of the buick suppliers like bob stock them

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They're a nice finishing detail on the car, there are some debates around the accuracy of them but mine seems accurate enough. They pop up on ebay quite often, and some of the buick suppliers like bob stock them

yup, his "cap" is definitley a "MotoMeter".....and he's telling me the internal fluid dosen't rise up in the tube very far when put into boiling water.....does anybody rebuild these?....there is still the question of the chain link "thingy" that looks like it's just a couple of brass chain links hanging down into the water stream....what is that all about...?

Also too....this car does NOT have the thermostat housing up high & motor side at the top of the radiator.....so.....no thermostat & we'll look elsewhere to solve overheating problem..."V" belt conversion looks like it runs the belt too loose.....we'll see......

Much bigger stuff......the car will not start...and we've never seen a correct starting procedure for it.......

SO....questions: should the "Ignition" (paddle) switch that is on the dash, when switched to the "on" position (CW rotation a few degrees), begin the starter motors' low speed rotation?.....if so, upon starting the motor, should that switch be returned to the "off" position..?

The starter footpedal seems to have (2) positions in its' downward travel.....sometimes, the initial push will start the starter motor rotating & sometimes not.....if down travel continues to the footpedals' end of travel, we hear really ugly gear grinding & the motor stops trying to turn over....it's almost like a gear, when contacting & maybe even engaging the flywheel is freezing everything & preventing further rotation..........the motor is NOT set-up........we then need to tap a shaft that moves out into the passenger footspace with the footpedal travel with a hammer & it returns in smartly......

If we actuate the footpedal its' full stroke with a battery cable off, it looks like all the movements are correct.....the top brush moves down to contact the armature, the shaft linkages all move in unison & return when the starter foot pedal is allowed to return back up.......

WHAT is the problem with this starting system..?

I have marked up pictures of all this & no way to post them for you guys to better understand what were up against...workin on that......

Can anybody offer an idea of where to start looking?....we think we've got everything well greased & lubed.....where's the bind coming from....if it IS a binding problem......

Again, THANK YOU all for your ideas & help.....it was a sweet 'lil old timey touring car & it's gonna be again.....

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you need to look at it as a starter motor and generator its not just a starter.

and the armature has 2 sets of windings and 2 comms one for generator and one set for starter with its own comm (its like 2 armatures put onto the one shaft

also there are 2 field windings as well

talk about generator first

if you took a generator with 1 wire out from any old car and put battery volts onto it the generator would turn slowly like a motor not much power on shaft though

so when you turn your buick on battery volts go to the generator part of the starter generator and it should turn slowly like a slow motor. remember there are no cut outs or relays on these cars. other cars have cut outs to stop the generator motoring like a motor

there is a one way clutch between the end of the generator and the distributor so when the generator is motoring like a motor the timing does not change ie the starter gen shaft turns only

when the car is going the shaft coming from the front of the engine turns the water pump and drives the distributor the one way clutch engages and drives the starter generator shaft if all is ok the generator will generate and charge the battery on the same wire that was driving it like a motor

Edited by tonybuick (see edit history)
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starter motor side of starter generator

there is no bendix drive and the shaft of the starter generator does not slide in or out like some big starter motors

on the end of the starter generator shaft that goes into bell housing it has a gear on it. also

in the bell housing there is a set of gears two gears and they have a clutch in them as well and these gears can slide on a shaft

the foot pedal in the car works these gears and a pointed shaft which goes into the starter generator

I will try and get this part right its been a while since I played with mine once they are working they go for ever

when you put your foot on the pedal it it will slide the gears one gear will engage with the gear on the end of the starter generator shaft the other will start to engage with the ring gear

the pointed shaft works on the brushes inside the starter generator

(so pushing the pedal in the car will move the 2 gears and the pointed shaft)

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so turn your buick on you should hear the starter generator motor like a slow motor (and it does no harm to leave it running like this)

push on the pedal the gears should be moving on the shaft and will start to engage with the ring gear and the gear on the end of the starter generator

sometimes the gears will not engage as they will not align and the pedal will not go all the way down or they may grind lift your foot and let the starter generator motor a bit more then have another try they should align as the gear on the starter generator will be in a different place now you should feel the pedal going down more when these gears are just engaging or started to engage the pointed shaft which is also driven by foot pedal will lift the brushes of the generator comm and drop the starter brush onto the starter motor comm

it will crank engine and the starter generator is now working as a starter motor .car should start when foot taken off pedal starter brush is lifted and generator brush is dropped back on to allow car to be charged don't turn your buick off until you want to stop engine

if you are slow at lifting your foot off the pedal the clutch in the 2 gears works to stop engine driving starter motor backwards like the bendix drive found on most cars

you don't have to stomp on pedal or go fast a nice smooth movement is good

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if you are hitting things looks the gear shaft in your pictures then maybe the 2 gears are sticking on the shaft and not disengaging.

the other thing to look at is when the brushs lift from generator and drop onto the starter comm this part is important to needs to happen when the gears are in there correct position sometimes its best to pull it all apart and check everything hope you can understand my writing thanks tony

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gpdc, Here are some photo,s of what tonybuick is saying.Remove the plate so you can see the gears moving. The starter gear needs to completely disengage as soon as the motor starts. Pic 4 is when the starter pedal is not depressed, the top gear is the starter gear ( when the ignition is turned on you will see this turning and hear the clutch clicking). The lower gear seen in pic 4, connects the starter gear to the flywheel. When the starter pedal is depressed this gear slides backwards engaging the starter gear with the ring gear on the flywheel,this can be seen in pic 3. Oil the shafts and get somebody to depress the starter pedal a number of times until they are engaging and disengaging properly. Without the starter gear turning you will need to turn the lower gear with your finger to align the cogs while depressing the starter pedal. Post some pics of the car.

Rod

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Edited by ROD W (see edit history)
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Rod & Tony & ALL.....

I feel that with your help, we're getting closer.....the owner/operator tells me that it's ALWAYS ground badly upon starting since day one of his possesion & a part of that problem has to be the high rpm engagement speed that we're seeing WHEN we see motor rotation at all.....it's a sometimes thing......so, I'm thinking the comm needs a good cleaning...sanding with light sandpaper & the biggie must be the timing of starter pedal location to brush movement.....any ideas as to how we change or set it to specification?....something off the "pointy" shaft maybe?.....

we've gotta get the motor comm turning by that ignition switch first, I'd guess.......

working on that tomarrow afternoon as time allows.....

I did get pics posted last nite.....more & better one's to follow for sure...

thanks again for your time, advice & guidence....!

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gpdc, The sliding gear connecting the starter and the flywheel ring gear should start to engage before the starter brushes actually come into contact with the commutator so there is a minimum of crunching as the starter gear is only turning slowly. Possibly if new starter brushes have been installed, they may be too long and the starter motor is operating before the gears are engaging

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from memory there is no adjustment on the pointy shaft the adjustment is done by bending the arms that make contact with the shaft which is part of the brush holders you can adjust starter motor and generator bush individually best to do this with battery disconnected

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Rod & Tony......you guys are the best..!

With your help & a reread of sections of the Shop Manual, I'm getting a much clearer mind set as to how this whole thing works.....NEVER would I have thought to bend something on a 90 year old car to make an adjustment...and I'm certain that's what we're goning to find is required and the new starter brushes that require that bending procedure are a definite possibility because this car was a total rebuild....SO......later today, we get to explore the simple, mechanical elegance of 1925..!....lookiing forward to it.....& we'll let you know what we find......

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hi it would be good to now how you get on I would remove battery before playing inside starter generator it would be a shame to short something out and do damage tony

Guys, yesterday was breakthrough day.....it's all coming clearer.....the motor/charger top brush (on the smaller diameter comm) is very worn (short) so I bent the brush holder down and that was a step in the right direction as the motor is now turning slowly with the ignition paddle switch in the "on" position.....just like it should be....the "timing" of the starter gearsets' engagement & top STARTER brush contacting the comm was off, so I am adjusting that gearsets' engagement position by moving that shaft that has a bolt & locknut adjustment holding it in place....guessing that shaft is direct to what must be (or act as) the throw-out yoke to move the starter/ring gear engagement gearset. I elongated the (2) mounting screws for the top MOTOR (not STARTER)brush & we were in the midst of working with that when we ran out of battery.....charger time for the battery & new brushes for the whole gen/motor will get ordered today....& I'm betting they'll be a bunch longer than what we're working with now......

GETTING THERE...!!....YIPEE!!!

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All.......waiting for new brush set now.....have them Tues or so....."Frank" (in CT?) has sold all his stock of them to another fellow in one of the upper mid west states (USA) .....and it makes sense to install brandy new ones rather that cob around with worn out brushes....we'll see....

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  • 4 months later...
gpdc,

When adjusting brushes , the gen brush must lift before the starter brush contacts the armature. Sometimes new gen brushes are too long.

Good Luck,

JB

and the above noted info may have been the most important info we rec'd to correct the badness.....

anyway......I hope the this will bring this to the top of the forum posts...we'll see....

Attached are some pics of the vehicle....clearly showing WOOD froes/spokes on this 1925 Master 6

& that bit of info is for the Canadian dig people......cool work....I wish I was you......

This car was purchased restored/rebuilt from the north mid west by the owners' son as a present his dad....the restorer did a hell of a fine job...all the " 'lil bit stuff" is in place & operational.......

That said, from day of delivery, it's run hot...as noted in the restorers' working notes......

and then one bad day.....It simply wouldn't start & there is sat for months......tear in its 'lil eye ball....

Enter me....FOO (friend of owner)......the s/g needed attention that was way more the learning curve on our part than anything else.....long story short....we got it.....kinda......mostly......

Next up was the discovery that the distributor rotor can freewheel unless the bolt/nut "under" the knurled nut at the bottom of the distributor is tight......and you better have the rotor pointed at the correct plug wire when you snug it.........

Now it turns over & actually runs......kinda....mostly.......

THE BIG PROBLEM: CHERRY red exhaust manifold & associated problems......

We did find the heating butterfly in the exhaust tube was (we think!) about 90 degrees out of position......its' link from the "throttle plate" allows that misassembly......

What we're seeing is (we THINK/thought) fuel delivery problems associated with the vacuum tank type gravity feed fuel supply to the Marvel float bowl.....the fuel delivery to the vacuum tank had been augmented by a low pressure electric fuel pump (with a dash on/off switch) that is used ONLY for initially filling the vacuum tank after the vehicle has sat for a while (I suspect).....this fuel line also had a filter after the fuel pump.........which equals more impediment to the suction flow of the fuel........

Also I put a clear bowl filter in the GRAVITY feed line to the Marvel........more impediment...????

FWIW dept: the carb has been apart as much as we can a couple of times now & no crap/obstructions were evident.........the low speed vertical tube is a clear hole...small, yes....but it's clear......

Still....we get that crazy heat from the exhaust manifold........

Today, we're going to advance the ignition timing incrementally & see what happens......

SO.......all thoughts on WHERE that initial timing SHOULD be (book setting of 7 degrees ATDC 2aside) & how much flyweight advance is in the distributor would be GREATLY appreciated......

and large thank you's to Mr Earl,Mark Shaw,hidden_hunter,Rod W from Queensland,DonMichelett,Tony Buick & jbbuick22 for all the previous help......we used it all...!

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gpdc:

Just caught this thread. You have now graduated into the antique Buick technical expert club. Most of the course is trial by fire! I know personally I could not have gotten this far on my 1925 Standard if not for the help of all the wonderful generous people on this forum. The only thing that cured my overheating was to do a re-cored radiator. The honeycomb radiator that was on the car was supposedly cleaned and was pronounced good for service. A short drive (around the block) would have it boil over. Motometer topped out. I could not touch the radiator without being burned. One could feel hot and cooler spots on the face of the radiator. After new core. Drove the car about 10 miles today and after 40 min of stop and go driving the red on the motometer was just barely visible. Touching the face of the radiator it was comfortably warm. I fought with this for over a year and a half re-cleaning the complete system several times till I had the new core done. post-79073-143142800406_thumb.jpg Back flushing the block.

It seems most people who restored these cars seemed to like Red. Mine is to be Brewster green and a local fellow with a 1925-45 originally painted it the correct Cobalt blue. Then repainted it light blue. post-79073-14314280043_thumb.jpg On the other hand the one you are working on is a great looking car!

Best of luck:

Larry

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Larry,

Thx for the radiator info.....a re-coring has always been in the picture.....

And the biggie now.....what timing do you run initially?...if memory serves, & I'm not near

our service books right now, both the Standard & Master 6, for '25, are supposed to be set @ 7 ATDC

& then the centrifugal mechanical advance kicks in with increased engine speed.

Can you say you're seeing/feeling a lot of heat in the exhaust manifold?........on my friends car, you can't hold

your hand over the tail pipe outlet @ the back of the car.....way too hot for that.......

Also to...in the model designation (1925-25, in your case).....where does the second set of two digits (the -25) come from....what do they mean...??

Thank you!

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Thank you Lief......but I can't read it...the print is too small even after screen captures & zoom-ins & the like......

can you just tells us what the last two digits for a 1925 "Master 6" could/would/should be?

many thanks......

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