Horch

[SC38dls]

If that car is in southern Florida in July you could cook five or six people at a time. That thing would be a giant pizza oven. 
dave s 

Edited October 29, 2022 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[alsancle]

The Horch  fire truck is pretty cool. I think it’s actually a coachbuilt  body, although the coachbuilder escapes me right now. I would be fine with owning it. It’s amazing how many fire truck guys are out there.

[George K]

I’ve had experience with fire trucks. A short summary. Big, red and valueless.

[George K]

Out cruising in Prague. Here’s the specs if you read Czech. Got a face that’s hard to admire.

[George K]

Much more tasteful cloaking of a Horch chassis. 

[George K]

Achille Varzi and his Horch.

[alsancle]

 

[George K]

On 11/30/2022 at 6:11 PM, alsancle said:

 

Just came across these photos. Now that’s what I’m talking about.

[John Bloom]

I believe this is a Horch???   My apologies and please correct me if I’m wrong.

Edited September 27, 2023 by John Bloom (see edit history)

[prewarnut]

That appears to be a Horch staff car for Erwin Rommel (standing, arm outstretched). The flag is his war-flag or battalion associated with him. The WH license plate registration is for the army by what I can tell. There's another photo of a Horch of his with different plate in the era on-line.

[John Bloom]

1 hour ago, prewarnut said:

That appears to be a Horch staff car for Erwin Rommel (standing, arm outstretched). The flag is his war-flag or battalion associated with him. The WH license plate registration is for the army by what I can tell. There's another photo of a Horch of his with different plate in the era on-line.

That is the context of the photo. I took the picture of it as it is displayed in the Overlord Museum.   I’d like to see a side profile of the car. 

[prewarnut]

There are photos online but likely copywrited. If you search for him and a Horch 951 by Erdmann and Rossi, Cab D there's a couple of photos but one is from a distance and another is at an angle. Also his license plate seems to be WH 948205 but of course multiple cars could have been used but this plate in multiple photos differs from the one on the car you showed. Good luck!

[John Bloom]

Certainly not as beautiful, but interesting none the less. This vehicle was displayed at the museum, and shows how the war turned many industries into a different role as they became part of the military industrial complex. Again a Horch, but less likely to pull the elite of society into it for a ride. 

[alsancle]

Typically you might see one Horch for sale in a given year.   We have 3 for sale at once.   The 855 Roadster is probably the cleanest best provenance Horch roadster known to exist.  Expect huge money. The 853 is an engine swap with older restoration and artillery wheels.   The 780 is very cool and missing parts.  

 

https://rmsothebys.com/auctions/rk24/lots/

[John Bloom]

26 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Typically you might see one Horch for sale in a given year.   We have 3 for sale at once.   The 855 Roadster is probably the cleanest best provenance Horch roadster known to exist.  Expect huge money. The 853 is an engine swap with older restoration and artillery wheels.   The 780 is very cool and missing parts.  

 

https://rmsothebys.com/auctions/rk24/lots/

When it rains it pours.  It will be interesting to see the prices if a sale is made 

 

have there been any at Pebble Beach in the last few years?

[alsancle]

24 minutes ago, John Bloom said:

When it rains it pours.  It will be interesting to see the prices if a sale is made 

 

have there been any at Pebble Beach in the last few years?

They will sell.

 

Last Horch at Pebble was Aaron Weiss's 853.

 

 

[edinmass]

What is the over/under number on the special roadster? Best guess? 
 

 

I like the 780. A quick look at it shows an easy restoration………just add five years and 1.5 miles.

Edited September 19 by edinmass (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

"…just add five years and 1.5 miles." 

 

And worth it...

[Su8overdrive]

Get the impression if it's European and swoopy body, it's something you want.  These Horches are well crafted, but for perspective: 120 hp (net/advertised) @ 3,200 rpm, SOHC inline eight, 302-ci (4.944 cc), 3.425 x 4.094 bore/stroke, 6.1:1 compression lugging, typically,   5,700+ lbs.  on a lengthy 136-inch wheelbase.      Top speed, 80 mph.

 

 Maybe there's a reason these are trailer queens traded from one collector to another. A late friend, who chiefly owned a procession of Gallic fare; Delahaye 6s & V-12s, Delage D8S, Bugatti, Talbot Lago, Hispano Suiza K6 & J12, deviated to own a few domestic cars, Lincoln K, Packard Super Eight, Weymann-bodied Stutz SV16, Auburn 8 & V-12,  also briefly owned and showed a Horch like the above and a Maybach Zeppelin.  He was emphatic that all his cars, show winners every one,  run as well as they look, and they did.   

 

 A late '30s LaSalle, Buick, Packard 120, Hudson or Chrysler 8 would dust such a Horch.  But if craftsmanship by Black Forest elves is worth that much more to some than one of the aforementioned Detroit production jobs, so be it.

 

 For more perspective, remember that in the years just before War II, Rolls-Royce was annually disassembling a new Buick Limited to glean the latest Detroit production methods.

 

 In a Road & Track Salon in the '90s on a pair of 1938 Delage D8Ss, Hill & Vaughn's president, Raja Gagour remarked, "They are not as satisfying as a Packard of the era," and he was probably talking about a 282-ci One-Twenty at that, whose i.f.s. Rolls-Royce/Bentley copied nut for bolt after the war, Lagonda using it at the rear.

 

Edited September 19 by Su8overdrive (see edit history)

[alsancle]

9 hours ago, Su8overdrive said:

Get the impression if it's European and swoopy body, it's something you want.  These Horches are well crafted, but for perspective: 120 hp (net/advertised) @ 3,200 rpm, SOHC inline eight, 302-ci (4.944 cc), 3.425 x 4.094 bore/stroke, 6.1:1 compression lugging, typically,   5,700+ lbs.  on a lengthy 136-inch wheelbase.      Top speed, 80 mph.

 

 Maybe there's a reason these are trailer queens traded from one collector to another. A late friend, who chiefly owned a procession of Gallic fare; Delahaye 6s & V-12s, Delage D8S, Bugatti, Talbot Lago, Hispano Suiza K6 & J12, deviated to own a few domestic cars, Lincoln K, Packard Super Eight, Weymann-bodied Stutz SV16, Auburn 8 & V-12,  also briefly owned and showed a Horch like the above and a Maybach Zeppelin.  He was emphatic that all his cars, show winners every one,  run as well as they look, and they did.   

 

 A late '30s LaSalle, Buick, Packard 120, Hudson or Chrysler 8 would dust such a Horch.  But if craftsmanship by Black Forest elves is worth that much more to some than one of the aforementioned Detroit production jobs, so be it.

 

 For more perspective, remember that in the years just before War II, Rolls-Royce was annually disassembling a new Buick Limited to glean the latest Detroit production methods.

 

 In a Road & Track Salon in the '90s on a pair of 1938 Delage D8Ss, Hill & Vaughn's president, Raja Gagour remarked, "They are not as satisfying as a Packard of the era," and he was probably talking about a 282-ci One-Twenty at that, whose i.f.s. Rolls-Royce/Bentley copied nut for bolt after the war, Lagonda using it at the rear.

 

 

European gearing makes a difference.   The 853 is a 4 speed or optionally a 4 speed with an extra "Cruising Gear" which was basically a two speed mounted behind the transmission and controlled by an extra shift lever behind the transmission shifter.    The rear end ratio was designed for the Autobahn.    They are perfectly content at 65mph.   The cabin experience is superior to most American luxury cars.

[alsancle]

10 hours ago, edinmass said:

What is the over/under number on the special roadster? Best guess? 
 

 

I like the 780. A quick look at it shows an easy restoration………just add five years and 1.5 miles.

 

Over/under is 5 and I would bet the over.

The 780 is missing parts but certainly very cool and a worthy project to make usable.   All the estimates are designed to draw you in.  They are purposely on the low side.

 

Use see 2 or 3 853 series cars for every 780.  They are rare.

[edinmass]

10 hours ago, Su8overdrive said:

 

 

 For more perspective, remember that in the years just before War II, Rolls-Royce was annually disassembling a new Buick Limited to glean the latest Detroit production methods.

 

 

 

 

In 1934, Rolls factory in England bought a 1934 V-16 Club Sedan and had W. O. Bentley dissassemble it and use it as a basis for the PIII V-12 platform. The car was completly disassembled down to the frame. Years later the car was sold and reassembled. It was just restored and finished this year, and is now available for sale. Would make an interesting addition to any Rolls collection. The horn button is inscribed as delivered to Rolls Royce of England. All 1934 horn buttons on V-16's were engraved with the owners name.......see photo below. 

 

 

[Su8overdrive]

  That's right.  Ex-R-R, then  quarter century with GM, Maurice Olley's i.f.s., of course.  R-R had a long history cribbing from Motown, as with their "Small Horsepower" owner/drive 20 introduced for 1922.  It and its engine -- which became the basis of all R-Rs/1933-on Bentleys 'til the '59 V-8, other than the complex, troublesome 727 1936-39 Phantom III V-12s-- was deemed by Laurence Pomeroy and other English motoring journalists of the day, "based on the 1920 Buick Six, though not so good."   

 

 When the R-R V-8 introduced in 1959, its well lubricated chief engineer blurted out, "It's bloody near as good as the Chrysler."

 

  Of course the Horch's cabin would be finer, more sumptuous than one of the upscale production Detroit cars of the late '30s cited, which is why I mentioned the Horch's sole draw being craftsmanship.   But we're forgetting the   v a s t   variance in price.   If that's worth it to some collectors today, again, so be it.  Only providing oft missing perspective.

 

   Relaxed 65 mph understood, but the top speed was still only 80.  120 hp at most to haul 5,700+ lbs.?

Any of the mentioned period domestic cars would be a snappier road car.  So wear a cashmere sweater and/or Harris tweed sport coat to take the sting out of not blowing quadruple the cost on the Hun.

Edited September 20 by Su8overdrive (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Stude8……….its not always about power or speed. Quality bespoke motorcars have something special that’s hard to describe unless you have spent years around them. Personally, I’m an American car guy. You couldn’t give me a 540k……..well, you could so I can sell it and buy several much more interesting cars……… the Horch always had the quality and good looks, without the useless compressor. Having always wanted one since seeing them for the first time back in the mid 80’s I have a soft spot for them. Having driven 500/540’s and three Horch’s it’s no contest…….I’ll take the Horch. 

Edited September 19 by edinmass (see edit history)

[prewarnut]

A interesting comparison is the 780 against the 370S Mannheim. Both (to me) have ungainly looks but I wonder which performed better? For the MB it probably was all about the gearing.

[alsancle]

5 minutes ago, prewarnut said:

A interesting comparison is the 780 against the 370S Mannheim. Both (to me) have ungainly looks but I wonder which performed better? For the MB it probably was all about the gearing.

 

The Manheim has a much smaller engine.  They screwed up the side window line which is not like them.   Neither are blazingly fast cars.

[alsancle]

45 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Stude8……….its not always about power or speed. Quality bespoke motorcars have something special that’s hard to describe unless you have spent years around them. Personally, I’m an American car guy. You couldn’t give me a 540k……..well, you could so I can sell it and buy several much more interesting cars……… the Horch always had the quality and good looks, without the useless compressor. Having always wanted one since seeing them for the first time back in the mid 80’s I have a soft spot for them. Having driven 500/540’s and three Horch’s it’s no contest…….I’ll take the Horch. 

 

You have never driven a sorted 540K because they almost don't exist.   However, your point about the Horch not having the blower, and the complicated fuel system that powers it is a good one.

 

I love all cars.   American cars as well as European cars.   But if you get in to the higher end,  the hand built European cars are much more sophisticated than their American counterparts.  Find me an American car with an interior like this.   Although in fairness, this is an American body.

[trimacar]

I agree with the “sorted” comment.  I have a basically original 812 Cord phaeton, heavy to drive.  Then, I put interior and top in/on a Bill Pettit car, same car but restored by the late Harry Van Iderstine.  Oh. My. Gosh.  Not even night and day, what a wonderful car to drive, just easy everything.

 

Few people in the hobby realize what a delightful early car, any make, can be, if “properly sorted”, and restored to new, not restored to “good enough”.

[prewarnut]

39 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

The Manheim has a much smaller engine.  They screwed up the side window line which is not like them.   Neither are blazingly fast cars.

AJ, hi that may be so but the reason I ask: 

370S: 75 hp / 3.6 l / 1500 kg (per MB data)  versus 780: 100 hp / 4.9 l / 2200 kg (from what I can tell online and weight is only estimated - can't find proven actual)

The Horch has a quoted higher top speed but for "streetable" performance? In the end maybe no replacement for displacement.

[John Bloom]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

 

That is a cockpit..

 

[Su8overdrive]

Prewarnut, which i largely am, too, is right about the 4.9-liter/302-ci Horch's sohc straight eight rated by some respected sources only 100 hp.  Of course, gearing can work wonders, hence a relaxed 65 mph when people in the US were still using the expression "going like 60" for really traveling.

 

Edinmass nails it regarding that "something special" in certain bespoke cars on well wrought chassis, which the Horch surely was.  That's why i used the term "sumptuous" for their cabins.  Ensconced in such, with that silky feel of the controls, is a delight.  (Missing in the Railton 8 tourer we took out but that car nonetheless had a rorty aspect that was addicting.)  Was only reminding that that delight set you back quadruple one of the increasingly sophisticated late '30s Detroit barouches.  Which brings us to Trimacar's point that any premium or even mid-priced car of the era well sorted --which few are today, sadly-- is wonderful.   That's why friends in the old plane game called such "paint overhauls."  A late friend whose shop often turned former Pebble best in class winners back into the automobiles they once were, remarked if you returned in time to a 1940 US showroom and drove anything, a Nash or Stude 8, something relatively prosaic, you'd be amazed how quiet, unobtrusive behind the wheel.

 

 But i'm surprised, Trimacar,  that your '37 Cord feels "heavy."  Good grief, been out in three lifelong Cordites' Westchesters and Phaetons, and the last thing we'd say about them was heavy.  No such feeling remotely in any of them.  The four-speed version of the Bendix "Electric Hand" optional in 1935-36 Hudsons works just like that--step on the clutch and you're in the next gear.  We always babied first gear, which was beefed up in the Cord transmissions used in the overrated, over-hyped, tail-wagging-the-dog (70% rear bias) Tuckers.   Your Phaeton weighs what, all of 3,700 lbs. with a short-stroke, sturdy 288-ci V-8 about the same hp/torque as Packard's 282-ci One-Twenty, good handling, and a  l o n g - legged  2.75:1 fourth gear.  Sure Cord was hiding from the SEC in England citing concerns for his teenage son and daughter knowing the Lindbergh baby kidnapping still fresh in the public's mind, an already back-burnered A-C-D out of money and another year's development would've helped.  But y'are too hard on your car.  In good order, such a Cord as yours is a low-slung  runner.

 

 Alsancle, i've driven auld caleches from both sides of the Atlantic and Channel, but never a 500/540K Merc.  But a racer/rocket tech at the Cape uncle and various old friends have, and concur that the draw was, as above, craftsmanship, comfort, and look-at-me aspect.  They look bloated and comic opera to some of us;  like the Horch, another sohc inline eight hauling 2 3/4 tons.  Don't know how the swing axle rear suspension behaved at winding road speed.  Perhaps my Brit ancestry makes it hard to warm to Teutonic fare, if i might be forgiven for liking XK Jags over the better crafted Porsche.  Sir William Lyons no doubt upset his board members when, in the late '60s, he said in an interview with one of the motoring press, "We could never get our XK quality near Porsche levels."

 

   For me, any of the previously mentioned late '30s domestic straight eight "road cars," as such then termed, esp. with overdrive, well fettled, well tuned, and wear a soft sweater.  The FDR-era domestics for me, and that's still my party.

Edited September 21 by Su8overdrive (see edit history)