1924 Panhard et Levassor - sleeve valve engine

[Guest 246gts]

Hi All, I am new to this forum and am already looking for advice.

I have a 1924 Panhard fitted with their version of the Knight sleeve valve engine, in this case a 4 cylinder 3200cc.

Since purchase about 5 months ago I have had problems with water getting into the oil.

I tracked down one source as a pin hole in the cylinder head on No1 cylinder. This had previously been brazed up but a new hole had appeared thus linking the combustion chamber with the water jacket above.

I have refitted with new junk rings and gasket but am still getting emulsified oil appearing in the oil return pipe to sump as soon as I start engine up.

Does anyone on here have any experience with this type of engine please?

Thanks,

Dave

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Edited April 2, 2014 by 246gts (see edit history)

[Guest cben09]

Is this an X series engine?? I have an earlier X-7 ,,,,2hours north of Boston USA

Where are you located?? Cheers,,Ben

[Guest 246gts]

Is this an X series engine?? I have an earlier X-7 ,,,,2hours north of Boston USA

Where are you located?? Cheers,,Ben

Yes this is an X46 from 1924.

I am based in UK quite a way from you!

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[Guest cben09]

Lets go as far as we can,,,Keep the thread alive,,

What can you tell us about the hole/crack,, Did the braze dammage anything,,

Is there any active group there for P-L,,I also have a 35CV [with valves][and chaine]

There is little information on these machines here,,,AND,,the original manuals leave out pages ,,,, in the English manual,,,like compression braking around 1906,,,and a watercooled

countershaft brake !!I also need to find old style metric nuts,, fun and games

Cheers,,Ben

[MochetVelo]

Here is a thread a while back about the sleeve valve engines. Is yours the same as the Willys Knight motor? I believe PL was licensed by Knight to produce them. You might also consult the Willys-Overland-Knight Registry. They seem active; each year I see them at Hershey.

Phil

[Dandy Dave]

It is not uncommon for a sleeve, or in this case, a cylinder/sleeve wall that the sleeve rides against to get a pin hole. It can rust though from the water jacket in. Sounds to me like you need to take it completely apart and check every inch for holes or cracks. By the way, Very Nice car and well worth fixing. Dandy Dave!

[Guest 246gts]

Thanks all for your comments.

I am wondering if there are any coatings that could be put on the junk head to a) seal the combustion chamber from the inside and protect the water side of the cylinder head from further corrosion.

I did enquire about vacuum impregnation but the experts said the casting was not thick enough at the crown of the combustion chamber for this to be successful, it appears that system depends upon a good thickness of metal for the compound to seal off the imperfections.

I don't think that the brazing has damaged the heads, certainly some of the previous brazing has been in place for many years and seems to have stood the test, as you can see the new pinhole was just adjacent to the previous brazing.

Do any of you know what the purpose of the strange shaped funnel in the oil filler flap on the side of the engine near to the water pump (here in UK we would call it the offside of the car). It has a strange needle arrangement with a cork float attached and when this float is lifted by oil level presumably this allows the oil flowing down from the return pipe to go through the needle valve, but where does this go to??

I will post a picture in a minute via my phone.

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[Guest 246gts]

Oil is filled into the engine via two letterbox type flaps one on either side of the engine and the sump is a wide structure fitting across the whole width of the engine compartment.On the offside of the engine when you open the flap you can see a funnel type arrangement with a cork float sitting in it.

This is the funnel inside the sump of the engine. The oil level is supposed to be to the top of the outside of the funnel.

Feeding into this funnel is an oil pipe which can be seen at the top of the picture just below and between the two screw heads with white emulsified oil in the tip of it.. But where does this pipe come from and if it feeds into the funnel and raises the float with a needle on it presumably this opens the drain hole at the bottom of the funnel, but then where does this oil drain to down the funnel?

This picture is with the cork float removed showing a needle valve type arrangement that fits into a hole at the bottom of the funnel.

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Edited April 3, 2014 by 246gts (see edit history)

[Guest 246gts]

Here is a picture of the engine showing the letter box flap where oil is filled and levels checked, just at the side of the brass water pump

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[Guest cben09]

The 4 screws at the corners of the flap appear to hold something,??

Do I read that this carries a very hi oil leavel ??

On one of the earlier engines , it is necessary to loosten the flywheel bolts to get the [sump] pan down,,,This is the same engine that has NO way to check the oil leavel !!!

REALLY I took the pan down to be sure,,,,,Grrrrr,,Ben

[Guest 246gts]

The 4 screws at the corners of the flap appear to hold something,??

Do I read that this carries a very hi oil leavel ??

On one of the earlier engines , it is necessary to loosten the flywheel bolts to get the [sump] pan down,,,This is the same engine that has NO way to check the oil leavel !!!

REALLY I took the pan down to be sure,,,,,Grrrrr,,Ben

Hi Ben. The four screws simply hold the filler flap frame down on to the sump casting. In one of the documents I have read it says to check the oil level by lifting the flap and then the level should be just to the lip of the funnel arrangement shown on the picture.

When filling it says put 10 pints in the sump and a further 2 pints are to be poured down the breather pipe in side of the block so that you get some oil to the upper parts of the engine before starting the engine.

As there is no oil pump I understand that there is a system of "buckets" on the chain that connects the main crankshaft to the auxiliary crank which operates the sleeves, these buckets pick up oil from the sump and deposit it in a gutter at the top of the engine. Maybe the return pipe I showed in the photos carries and excess oil from this gutter back to the sump??

Dave

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[Guest cben09]

You speak of reading,,,,is the reference in English or French,,,

Assume the book came with car?? are there any other sourses of information,,

Seems I recall an English P-L club,,,but not a club in France,,oh my,,

My X-7 and 30 both have small total loss sight drips I think,,pump on end of camshaft,,

Mention of pints,,,Assume British pints not US,,,but they did have an established market here headquaters in NewYork city,,and their winning the Vanderbuilt cup in '04 was major,, Marvelous car,,,Someone is reproducing the handbooks and parts books,,

but i have lost the address,,,All for now,,,,Ben,,,,oh what buttn did i hit now

[Guest 246gts]

You speak of reading,,,,is the reference in English or French,,,

Assume the book came with car?? are there any other sourses of information,,

Seems I recall an English P-L club,,,but not a club in France,,oh my,,

My X-7 and 30 both have small total loss sight drips I think,,pump on end of camshaft,,

Mention of pints,,,Assume British pints not US,,,but they did have an established market here headquaters in NewYork city,,and their winning the Vanderbuilt cup in '04 was major,, Marvelous car,,,Someone is reproducing the handbooks and parts books,,

but i have lost the address,,,All for now,,,,Ben,,,,oh what buttn did i hit now

There is a UK P&L Club but it deals mainly with the cars from the 1950's. I have found one other owner of a 1930's six cylinder car but there are many differences between the two engines.

I have a photocopy of some pages of a manual for a car from same era. This is in English. Doesn't cover the bit I need.

Dave

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[paulrhd29nz]

Have a look at this thread, It may be what you need to do. It is a very interesting fix.

http://forums.aaca.org/showthread.php?t=358946&p=1215533#post1215533

[Guest prs519]

Has anyone reading this tried the new nano-technology leak sealing products that are now available? This might be a possibility, but one would have to somehow clean any oil residue, as they declare in the instructions quite certainly, that even the antifreeze must be totally flushed out. I think one also must remove the thermostat to make sure the flush cycle gets everything.

[Curti]

'nano-technology leak sealing products' What is this ?

[Dandy Dave]

Here you are... http://www.crcindustries.com/files/Nanotechnology%20Blockseal%20Tutorial.pdf

I'm not sure if this stuff will work in a combustion chamber leak where there is a lot of pressure, expansion, and heat transferring happening constantly. Dandy Dave!

Edited April 5, 2014 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Guest cben09]

Getting the job done with no heat sounds good,,,,Cast iron tends to crack on cooling

after the job is finnished,,,major item,,,

This has to be a small crack or it would blow water out the filler cap, like a geiser,,

Sounds like extra time to flush the block would be well spent,,,

AND I wouldnt hesatate to call the product engineers and give em a heads up on

the preposed use of their product,,and ask for help and comments,,,

Post some more pics if convenient,,,It looks like a real gem,,

Cheers,,Ben

[Guest prs519]

'nano-technology leak sealing products' What is this ?

Curt, It is the 21st century's answer to Aluma-Seal, or other leak-sealing substances, according to those who sell it. I bought a bottle, and thought I might give it a try on my Ford Ranger, which is passing water into number one cylinder. Supposedly, it works because of the extreme (nano= .000,000,00X meter tinyness of its active (plating ? perhaps) ingredient which therefore fills up a crack in a more dense manner (not as many, if any, empty volumes supposedly result within the crack). I have not tried it yet, and I have no economic interest in it. The pint I bought at Walmart was about $20. Anybody know anyone who has tried this?