alsancle Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Nobody is arguing that belts in a modern car designed by real engineers will improve your survival probability. What I find funny is the certainty that belts installed in a car not designed for them by somebody who is not an engineer is absolutely a no brainer.Sometimes simply feeling safer is enough but they doesn't mean you are actually safer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLong Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 My '15 Chandler touring, my '25 Pierce Arrow touring, and my '26 Pierce Arrow town car are all open cars, with low door heights, and smooth leather seat cushions.. So, just driving too fast around a turn, or having to dodge some kid on a skateboard, or a swerve around a big dog, and I'd be sliding across the front seat. So how about putting self-stick velcro on the seat cushion and a matching piece or two on the seat of my pants ?? Instead of using a lapbelt?Again, as stated earlier, I'm not ever expecting a lapbelt to survive a 5G impact. What I do expect it to do is simply keep me behind the wheel, where I can still steer, brake, reach and yank on the parking brake lever if needed, or stand on the throttle if that is needed, or turn off the ignition. Nobody is saying installing a lapbelt in an early car is in anyway intended to make the car crashworthy, or survivable in a serious head on collision. But a simple lapbelt will help prevent loss of control of the car due to what might seem to be a very minor or normal maneuver.So yes, staying in the driver's seat is a 'no brainer'. If installing a lapbelt is a good way to stay in the driver's seat, then that too is a 'no brainer'.GLong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I have a problem with safety belts<st1:personname w:st="on">, </st1ersonname>air bags<st1:personname w:st="on">, </st1ersonname>and all forms of idiot protection. These devises stop mother nature from eliminating the stupid. We already have enough stupid people in the world lets do away with all these protections for a while please. The concern for our fellow man is sometimes staggering. So how do you feel about insurance rates?Back before we all became cowboys in the 1980s, there were ongoing debates about motorcycle helmet law repeal (which today I think no longer exist) across the U.S. When the repeal of helmet laws was first proposed in Pennsylvania I was a college student. The debate went on for several days, and it looked like a no-brainer...the repeal of the law had too much political support to fail. Helmet laws were going away, and Easy Rider types were celebrating in advance already.Then the state insurance groups issued their report. They said (essentially) "OK, repeal the laws. Statistically that will result in x number of additional head trauma cases, which will average x number of dollars each. The result will be a $20.00 per car increase in (legally mandatory) insurance rates annually." (That would be about $35/car today.) You can guess what happened then.It was another 5-6 years before PA successfully repealed it's helmet laws, in the go-go/"every man for himself" 1980s. It was one of the last states to do so.Not using your seat belt hurts me financially. Rationalize that all one wants, it's undeniable.:mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 If what I want hurts YOU financially it's well worth it.........................(Liberal words to live by)......................Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 DaveAlong with that argument, there should be a law that states all drivers and passengers of EVERY motor vehicle wear a helmet, and the speed limit on all roads should be 3mph. Or, better yet, ban cars and motorcycles altogether, but still require people to buy car insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 My 15 Buick does not have them. And I am not putting them in. If some idiot hits me, they better hope I'm not alive enough crawl out and knock some sense into their burned out noggin. If I'm Dead, it was one hell of a good ride. Dandy Dave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 The concern for our fellow man is sometimes staggering. So how do you feel about insurance rates?Here's another case where I agree with Dave. As I said, I'm a big believer in evolution, and normally I would be against seat belt/helmet laws, however so long as my insurance costs go up when these idiots take themselves out of the gene pool (or worse, don't but merely cause extreme injury requiring lifelong medical care), then I'm all for these laws. I don't know if this is still the case, but in parts of Europe the law was such that if you chose not to wear seatbelts and were injured or killed in an accident (and the lack of belt use could be proven), then your insurance payout was reduced by some set amount. Of course, given the thieving insurance companies, this would only result in increased profits and not reduced rates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 ............. Of course, given the thieving insurance companies, this would only result in increased profits and not reduced rates. Virginia took the insurance companies out of the mix. If you own absolutely nothing, you can purchase an "uninsured motorist" policy for $300.00 annually. For those that do not care about dying, that's a deal.Is this Obamacare at its best???:confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skyking Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 The cell phones, nav systems and every other electronic devices in cars continue........ I wonder what our insurance costs are for those plus the cost of 50 air bags in your new car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 The cell phones, nav systems and every other electronic devices in cars continue........ I wonder what our insurance costs are for those plus the cost of 50 air bags in your new car?I would think the electronics would increase the insurance cost. Airbags decrease insurance cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I would think the electronics would increase the insurance cost. Airbags decrease insurance cost.Airbags may decrease the cost of medical coverage, but I guarantee that the increased replacement cost has absolutely increased the cost of collision coverage. How much of the interior gets replaced when ten airbags go off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Airbags may decrease the cost of medical coverage, but I guarantee that the increased replacement cost has absolutely increased the cost of collision coverage. How much of the interior gets replaced when ten airbags go off?If there is enough force from the accident to deploy 10 airbags I would venture a good guess the car would be totaled out by the insurance company due to irreparable damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjamin j Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 The majority of states allow motorcyclist to ride without a helmet. I live in Ohio where I can ride my KZ1000 like a cowboy. Part of evolution is the weeding out of the weak whether they are weak of body or mind. If I can ride without a helmet what kind of logic does it make to force me to wear a belt inside of a steel cage? I was injecting a little humor into the mix with my previous post and I figured some people would not have a sense of humor. Some people want their freedom and some are only worried about money. I almost forgot I do wear chaps and a cup when I am bull riding just to keep my man parts in one piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) I was driving a brand-new SLP 1997 Camaro Anniversary Edition SS. Not paying attention, I ran into the back of someone at a stoplight late one night on the way home from work. I was VERY fortunate that the air-bags did not deploy. It was well-known at the time that the bags exploded with such force that the A pillars would bend. In each case, brand-new cars would be totaled, even if the front-end damage was minimal. The only thing I can think of as to why the air bags didn't deploy was that they were possibly disconnected (I didn't think to check at the time). All that to say that its hard to believe that air-bags reduce insurance costs... certainly for that car, anyway.Also, I would NEVER make a decision to buy a car based on the "safety" features built into it. I will always rely on the safety feature behind the wheel. What's behind the wheel will not guarantee I won't get involved in a serious collision, but it WILL reduce the possibilitiy and increase the odds of that collision ever happening, the odds of which are already staggeringly high. Edited March 28, 2014 by West Peterson (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 All that to say that its hard to believe that air-bags reduce insurance costs... certainly for that car, anyway.Also, I would NEVER make a decision to buy a car based on the "safety" features built into it. I will always rely on the safety feature behind the wheel. What's behind the wheel will not guarantee I won't get involved in a serious collision, but it WILL reduce the possibilitiy and increase the odds of that collision ever happening, the odds of which are already staggeringly high.X2. And just wait until someone gets hurt by an autonomous car... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 The belts do work. .I agree with this statement whole heartedly in "certain" collisions. Avgwarhawk, this is not directed at you, here I go to get flamed again ...However, to those who are obviously smarter than anyone else: the real problem is non of you/us have the luxury of hindsight, thus, we have no way of knowing where the impact will come from regardless of the federal statistics and ad nauseam articles any space case reaches for to prove his "OPINION". Statistics are nothing more than a "OPINION" of suggestive collected material that is usually biased for the business's that are doing the research, as we all know. Not paranoia, FACT ! Do seat belts save lives ? YES, absolutely in "SOME" CASES, NOT ALL ! But who determines that ? The seatbelt ? LOL, now that's funny !Seat belts DO save lives if you were collided with in the way that the shoulder harness keeps you from going through the windshield, I agree !Seat belts DO NOT keep you from a broken neck or severe whiplash, decapitation, limbs snapped off, being impaled by foreign objects, bleeding to death, waking up from a coma to find your wife or loved one dead because they were wearing a seat belt and you weren't.I see most on this board are glorified statisticians and it makes me smile but besides the humor, non of us can set our own destiny, with or without being strapped in by a piece of nylon. So, yes, HOLD ON TO THE STEERING WHEEL I SHALL ! LOLI am simply tired of hearing about respectful drivers who don't wear seat belts getting flamed for not having them in "THEIR OWN CAR" by "folks who side with idiots" who cannot obey speed laws. For those who want to take on European methods of enforcement, please, move to Europe ! You can go as fast as you like in some places I hear...You will NEVER EVER change my OPINION that seat belts are any " less or more safe ". If a classic car came with them, leave them, if they didn't then don't put them in (lest we lose track of the topic at hand ). Simply put - A 2000 lb sports car or a 40000 lb semi truck IS a death trap to be fully respected and has nothing to do with a piece of nylon. PERIOD ! Never will.... It's the chance we take when we get behind the wheel. Now stop playing God and move on...TOPIC - SEAT BELTSI say leave the seat belts in IF the car came with it from the factory, regardless of any "judging rules and standards" that any biased membership imparts. If not, then leave them out, unless you have the OPINION that it will save you, then put them in. Pretty simple decision really lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Good points. I have to disagree with you, though, in regard to none of us having the luxury of hindsight. I believe that most of us (not all) have the luxury of hindsight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) Now, let's get into the war stories shall we:I was once making a right turn in my "BIG BAD TRUCK" and seen a shiny new VW screaming up behind me that came out of nowhere. As I looked in my rear view and knowing he had no clue I was turning because he was in such a hurry he could care less what anyone else on the road was doing (yes, my turn signal was on and I was ready for impact, steering wheel firmly in hand ) I literally watched him slam right into my truck full force. Did I get a whiplash ? No, I was prepared and moved with the jolt.Did glass shatter? YES. Were people hurt? YES. Was it my fault because I wasn't wearing my seat belt ? NO.Well, sorry to say folks but the officer on the scene had a good chuckle, he had never seen this kind of damage to one vehicle and not the other because of shear stupidity. Needless to say my truck runs like a top and I still drive it daily, and meanwhile the VW was crush from grille to the top. Did the people live ? Yes.Were they wearing seatbelts ? NO ! There were 3 in the car that day, in hindsight I'm thankful it wasn't their time. At the time if it were up to me, I would have voted for them to be gone for being so stupid but I don't make those decisions. Only a matter of time till luck runs out on all of us. Edited March 28, 2014 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Good points. I have to disagree with you, though, in regard to none of us having the luxury of hindsight. I believe that most of us (not all) have the luxury of hindsight.I see said the blind man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/local/central-virginia/king-william/killed-injured-in-king-william-traffic-accident/article_c57519ac-b3b1-11e3-8091-001a4bcf6878.htmlI don't think seat belts will ever overcome stupidity. I had to drive through a very small back road on Monday to get by this mess. The accident happened near my home on a two lane road (route 30) that runs from Kings Dominion to West Point, Virginia. It's all 2 lane, always has been, always will be. The fellow killed was 19 years old, his passenger was his mother riding beside him. Do you not think I'd be beating him up beside the head for trying to pass 2, not 1, tractor trailers across a double line. Not to make light of this, but I would think he had bad driving habits before this happened, and his parents did a poor job of educating him about the hazards of the highways. Plymouth Neon's do not survive accidents with semi's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Well, first of all, the entire saying is "I see, said the blind man to his deaf wife on the disconnected telephone....."Second, yes, overall, seat belts save lives. Seat belts can also cause injury, it's easy to Google and see the tales of "hangman fracture" and separated vertebrae ..... But as previously mentioned, if you think you are safe from harm IN ANY CAR wearing restraints, then you're wrong.This is an endless conversation, I stand by my do/don't post..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Roth Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 We drive our old cars as much as possible, and live in a major metropolitan area.We also do as much cross-country TOURING as possible.Most of our old cars DO have seat belts, and we use them, even in the 1914 Buick B-37 Touring! Thus far we have found no reasonable way to install belts in the front seat of our 1934 and 1937 Buicks, but are still open to possibilities.Personal choice, of course, but....Years ago, a State Trooper Friend once told me he had never had to unbuckle a corpse!Couldn't hurt to take the precaution - in some ways similar to preventative maintenance on your brake system - it might not really be necessary, but the day that it saves the life of your wife or grandchild, you become a believer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Roth Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 The majority of states allow motorcyclist to ride without a helmet. I live in Ohio where I can ride my KZ1000 like a cowboy. Part of evolution is the weeding out of the weak whether they are weak of body or mind. If I can ride without a helmet what kind of logic does it make to force me to wear a belt inside of a steel cage? I was injecting a little humor into the mix with my previous post and I figured some people would not have a sense of humor. Some people want their freedom and some are only worried about money. I almost forgot I do wear chaps and a cup when I am bull riding just to keep my man parts in one piece. ...So, are you telling us that you wear "chaps and a cup" when bull riding, but do not wear a helmet when motorcycle riding?Does this mean that you value some parts of your body more than other parts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 However, to those who are obviously smarter than anyone else: the real problem is non of you/us have the luxury of hindsight, thus, we have no way of knowing where the impact will come from regardless of the federal statistics and ad nauseam articles any space case reaches for to prove his "OPINION". Statistics are nothing more than a "OPINION" of suggestive collected material that is usually biased for the business's that are doing the research, as we all know. Not paranoia, FACT ! Here's the part I don't understand. Can you provide an example of a case where a seatbelt would cause MORE injury than not? And please don't use the fire argument, as fire is a factor something under one half of one percent of all auto accidents. As an engineer, I'll take the possibility that seatbelt use will improve my odds of survival. At worst, they won't decrease the odds, so to me there is only an upside.As for statistics being an OPINION, well, I'm speechless. I work in a data-driven industry (aerospace). Can statistics be manipulated to "prove" one's point of view? Absolutely, as you just have. That doesn't make the hard data an "opinion". Polls can and are tailored to get the answer the poll taker wants. Data on crash survival isn't opinion, it's data that's been collected. On the other hand, I do agree with you that certain "safety" organizations like IIHS do manipulate data. For example, I always roll my eyes at "statistics" that claim that speed is a factor in 80% or so of all accidents. Yeah, maybe, but is it the PRIMARY cause, or was the primary cause the 0.25 blood alcohol level? This is why I get as much data as possible and form my one conclusion based on multiple interpretations of the data, or better, I look at the raw data before manipulation.Back to the topic at hand, as someone who understands the laws of physics and the principles of mechanical engineering, it is NEVER safer to not use belts. The "thrown clear" stories are one in a billion, but the "ejected from the car, which then rolled over him" stories are many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I should know better than to post in this but I can't seem to help myself.I spent 1978-1984 running at least a call a day with my local volunteer rescue squad. I spent 1980-2010 as a law enforcement officer. I retired as the Senior Lieutenant with my local police department in July of 2010. I am still a volunteer with the Police Department, although now I only play bagpipes in the Department Pipe and Drum band. I have dealt with a lot of dead bodies over the years. I can say that I never unbelted a dead one myself. I have seen the occasional crash that a driver would have been less injured without a seatbelt, but those are certainly rare. Generally, wearing seat belts is much safer than not wearing them. I always use seatbelts in cars that are equipped with seatbelts. For my antiques that did not come with seatbelts, I drive defensively and don't worry about it. Life is not riskfree. Personally, I am OK with the slight increase in my potential risk in those cars without seat belts. A little bit of common sense goes a long way. I try to be careful, but not to be paranoid. To each his own... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Seriously, though, Trimacar nailed it. There is no answer. If you feel safer with belts, by all means do it. If not, that's OK too and statistically, you're not likely to be in an accident in an old car (that's why old car insurance is so insanely cheap). Just be careful out there; your best defense is to be cautious and aware in an old car. You can't stop everyone else from being careless, but if you drive smart you'll hopefully see them coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) I see said the blind man picking up his hammer and saw, you do said the deaf mute? while the man with no legs got up and walked away. Sorry.......I can't help myself sometimes. I wouln not install seat belts in a pre war car. I do use them in my modern iron. To each his own, it's a semi free country depending on what state you live in. Edited March 28, 2014 by edinmass (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasJohn55 Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 One dark day in the middle of the night, two dead brothers got up to fight. Back to back they faced each other, drew their swords and shot each other. Deaf policeman heard the noise, came and arrested the two dead boys............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 The cat's out of the bag, it's loose in the kitchen, and someone's gotta put the broom to it.....I'd rather complete incomplete cliche's than debate restraint......But yes, Joe, do a little research, seat belts can in certain situations cause damage......in my hometown long ago, when seat belts were first being used, a young lady was wearing one and had a minor collision ....thought she was fine, died three days later of a ruptured spleen, caused by the belt....and not caught by doctors...There are too many odd circumstances in this world to say "never"..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 This is an endless conversation, I stand by my do/don't post.....Ey ey Captain. And the Beat goes on. Dandy Dave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 We drive our old cars as much as possible, and live in a major metropolitan area.We also do as much cross-country TOURING as possible.Most of our old cars DO have seat belts, and we use them, even in the 1914 Buick B-37 Touring! Thus far we have found no reasonable way to install belts in the front seat of our 1934 and 1937 Buicks, but are still open to possibilities.Personal choice, of course, but....Years ago, a State Trooper Friend once told me he had never had to unbuckle a corpse!Couldn't hurt to take the precaution - in some ways similar to preventative maintenance on your brake system - it might not really be necessary, but the day that it saves the life of your wife or grandchild, you become a believer!Amen Marty. Same thing with a 1915 Buick. Dandy Dave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 ...So, are you telling us that you wear "chaps and a cup" when bull riding, but do not wear a helmet when motorcycle riding?Does this mean that you value some parts of your body more than other parts?Awwwww Dude. Lead me to the mechanical Bull... Dandy Dave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 A little bit of common sense goes a long way. Truer words have not been spoken. Dandy Dave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I see said the blind man picking up his hammer and saw, you do said the deaf mute? while the man with no legs got up and walked away. Sorry.......I can't help myself sometimes. I wouln not install seat belts in a pre war car. I do use them in my modern iron. To each his own, it's a semi free country depending on what state you live in.Say Ed, I use em in my modern Iron as well. No denying it. Dandy Dave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 All that to say that its hard to believe that air-bags reduce insurance costs... certainly for that car, anyway.In the past year I purchased a new 2013 Toyota Prius. Also my wife had a bunion removed from her left foot. Guess which one cost more.....Wrong guess. They were almost the same price, within $500.00 of each other. The airbags (yes, there are exactly 10) came with the car. All of them.NEVER underestimate the billing power of a medical institution!:eek: That's why air bags save lives and money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 As for statistics being an OPINION, well, I'm speechless. I work in a data-driven industry (aerospace). Get used to it. All information is an opinion today, unless it is bunk which is most of the time, and bias is the force that binds us all together. The idea that something is right and something is wrong is no longer valid in this country any more. It's just too challenging to consider that the other guy may have a point. Best to dismiss and stick to your guns, sometimes literally.I used to work in what was an honored profession in the United States, environmental science. Now it's just part of the white noise of daily life. We all are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 What cha Say? Binds or Blinds us together??? Dandy Dave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick8086 Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 (edited) We added lap belt to some of our old cars. Edited March 29, 2014 by nick8086 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 ........That's why air bags save lives and money.Not my "airbag". she spends money like there's no end, and as far as saving my life, she has, on more then one occasion, threatened my life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Get used to it. All information is an opinion today, unless it is bunk which is most of the time, and bias is the force that binds us all together. The idea that something is right and something is wrong is no longer valid in this country any more. It's just too challenging to consider that the other guy may have a point. Best to dismiss and stick to your guns, sometimes literally.I used to work in what was an honored profession in the United States, environmental science. Now it's just part of the white noise of daily life. We all are.If what you say is true why do you speak in such an authoritative and absolute manner? ...........Just asking...................Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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