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New tires and their role in 2014 class judging

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Susan,

My point is that if they look identical to original equipment tires, I suspect that many judges will be unable to read markings on the back side of the tire. The judging guidelines state:

"Batteries, headlights, belts, tires, hoses and clamps may be of modern manufacture, but must be visually of the era of the vehicle and of the type specified by the vehicle manufacturer. Specific brand is not important."

I too have heard Herb Oaks discussing how we need to do a better job of finding incorrect items such as radial tires when cars are going for their first junior or their senior. It is not good for judges to fail to find such issues and then an owner being surprised when a major deduction is found on a car going for its Grand National award.

When I have seen these "new" tires, I will have a better idea. I doubt there is a radial tire that looks 100% authentic. If it looks 100% identical to the original, and I don't see obvious markings to indicate it is incorrect, I don't see where there is a problem. If it does not look 100% authentic, it is quite clear that an appropirate deduction will be taken. I think we all need to actually see what we are talking about before we stake out positions on the issue.

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Good morning, I normally don't spend any time on the forum because I have other things on my plate that need to get done. Last night the phone rang and I was informed that a tire thread was making a run and maybe I should chime in.

I've just read each of the entries and I believe Susan has done a pretty good summation. I wish to add this.

We have an AACA General Policy that says we are to ensure that our vehicles look the way they did when accepted from the dealer with factory authorized accessories and intended for road use.

We are the club that focuses on authenticity first and workmanship second.

That takes time. I can build a street rod in 90 days but it takes 2,000 hours or better to restore a vehicle.

Our members have a choice. If they want to restore, they show in class judging (like our 1953 Kaiser). If they want to take a deviation or two and still "look" authentic, we have DPC (like my Barracuda)

In class judging, 98% of the people understand this and go to great lengths to get it right. Look at class 36 for example and these folks are right down to the inspection marks.

In class judging we also have the 2% who don't get it and say," It's up to the judge to catch me". I would like to just buy them a trophy out of my own pocket and send them home because they have completely missed the spirit of the club.

The wrong tire situation has been pretty much a post WWII vehicle situation and two suppliers have changed that situation. Their sales reps are knowingly selling our members the incorrect tires. This is not illegal. I personally think it is unethical. I have already found other places to by my next set of tires.

We as judges do the best job we can to verify that the car vehicle was restored correctly. With over 2,800 manufacturers, this is a big job. When I get down on two knees (one knee doesn't work in my world) and see no markings on the sidewall, I look on the backside of the tire for size / type just to be sure. Yes, Mr Burgess, you can see the backside of the tire in most cases.

I also ask the owner for documentation. That is usually when the owner says the tires are "dimensionally correct". Where do you think the owner picked up that language?

I've rambled on so let me close with this and then I'll go back out to the garage.

We are arguably the leading club in the old car hobby. We attract membership based on quality. Quality can be defined as conformance to the specification. Our specification is our AACA General Policy.

These vehicles are pieces of our history. An authentic restoration is a statement of respect for that history.

See you down the road, Rick Marsh

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Thank you Rick for taking your time to clarify the AACA position regarding these new radial tires.

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If a radial tire has the same tread, sidewall profile, tread width and recommended inflation as a bias ply tire what is the advantage in the radial tire performance wise?

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I can't answer that question. Radial tires drive straighter on today's roads, but you will never convince me they are safer. I never had but one bias tire blow out in my 59 years of driving, but I've had many a radial tire blow out. I've driven bias tires I've had on my cars that were 30 years old with no fear of them blowing out, if they still had good tread. I've driven radial tires with new-like tread that were only six or seven years old that ply separated or blew out, and brother when they blow out, there goes your fender. We all know what the rules are, why fight the system? If you want to take a chance of a bent fender for a straighter drive and you don't want to buy new tires every six years, that's fine, that's your business. I have radials on my driver car, but they are new and made in a real factory that makes modern tires for modern cars. But, I also have a set of SPARE rallye wheels to put radials on my wife's 71 Riviera if/when we decide to not show but drive or in case we want to do both show and tour with the car just like Rick says you can do. I don't mind the cost of that nearly as much as I do the effort at 75 years old. :) Sometimes I can't fathom all of the rules, but I abide by them until they are changed. And, you won't get any rules changed by carping on the forum. Now one thing. Even though I do not believe bias tires age like radial tires do, I don't recommend using NOS tires. You simply do not know how they have been stored. AACA has accounted for that. If your size tire is not available, you are allowed to use the next closest size that is available.

Edited by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

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Can you tell me if this tire is a radial or bias?

What it looks like doesn't matter. What it is matters. How did you not get that from what Rick Marsh wrote? The debate is over. He clarified the rule.

If the rule ever changes officially then judges will judge according to the new rule. Until then we judge by the current rules.

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Tires are one thing. What about other items on a vehicle? What about the headlight bulbs? What about batteries? What about sedan top insert material? What about paint? What about upholstery material? Think about it.

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I just posted a picture of a tire to let everyone know what they look like. Yes, it is a radial tire and maybe when we see one up close and personal you might notice some differences with a bias, but they look convincing to me and may slip by many judges trained eyes, even with advanced warning.

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What it looks like doesn't matter. What it is matters. How did you not get that from what Rick Marsh wrote? The debate is over.

I guess that about says it all....

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Rick Marsh, Love your intregrity and knowledge, and you are one of the people I enjoy talking to every year at Hershey. Looking forward to seeing you in 2014 althought I've trade my spaces next to you to Alex and Rich I'll still be close by. You are without a doubt the 'AACA tire expert'. Thanks.

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Another though came to mind after I depressed the the 'Enter Key' on my previous reply, and here is: Get a 'JUDGING MANUAL', and read the bloody thing because it says it all concerning the AACA judging standards and what we as judges look for. By the way since you're on the Forum why not go out and read the 'ONLINE' copy of the judging manual, and save yourself a few bucks by not buying one from AACA headquarters, or better yet join the AACA judging program and learn what the judges look for.

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Another though came to mind after I depressed the the 'Enter Key' on my previous reply, and here is: Get a 'JUDGING MANUAL', and read the bloody thing because it says it all concerning the AACA judging standards and what we as judges look for. By the way since you're on the Forum why not go out and read the 'ONLINE' copy of the judging manual, and save yourself a few bucks by not buying one from AACA headquarters, or better yet join the AACA judging program and learn what the judges look for.

I agree. I have promoted folks going to the judging school and CJEs for years just to learn how and why we judge the way we do. And now with the Official Judging Guidelines available on-line for free they don't even have to buy one. Or if, as you suggested and I have in the past, they go to the class they get the book for free.

AACA judging is not a secret handshake closed group. Judges will help anyone that wants to learn. In the past at Hershey after the judging I would pick someone from the class I judged or was Team Captain for and go back and hand them my copy of the Guidelines. Not one person turned them down. Everyone took them and thanked me. Now I suggest they come here and read the book here.

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My concern would be this. Lets say it's a large meet. After bending down and "flashlighting" 10 cars fatigue may set in and the last few get judged a little more lax than say the first 6. However let me be quick to say I am one of those purists that insists everything be as correct as possible down to the letters/numbers on the tires. My wife says I'm OCD. I always say "no ,I just like things to be perfect.";)

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My concern would be this. Lets say it's a large meet. After bending down and "flashlighting" 10 cars fatigue may set in and the last few get judged a little more lax than say the first 6. However let me be quick to say I am one of those purists that insists everything be as correct as possible down to the letters/numbers on the tires. My wife says I'm OCD. I always say "no ,I just like things to be perfect.";)

billybird: I also agree with you to have things fair and perfect. What happened to me at last years Grand National at Moline IL is related to what you said. It was

raining on/off all day and the judges where really pushed for time. I was parked in the middle of the largest class last year. (Class 36b) Anyway after they judged my car the deluge came and never let up. I was unfornunate to be the last car that got the chassis judged. All the cars on my right got a "free ride" on the chassis.

Not complaining as the judges did the best they could do. I was just unlucky. Larry

P.S. Don't know the policy but I would like if this happens and not everybody is judged completely that the section not judge for all (chassis) should

be eliminated in the tabulation for all. It was not because I saw some points docked off when I got my scoring sheet back in the mail.FYI

Edited by llskis (see edit history)

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I too was at Moline. What happened to you was very unfortunate. Hang in there. I'm sure you'll rake that award in down the road. If it's any consolation to you, I missed on my first AGNM try then got it on the next try and have been winning AGNM Sr.'s since then.

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I come to this thread a bit late..

Seems to me that if the only way to tell that these new radials are actually radials (as pictured above) are the letters on the inside...it should be acceptable to AACA.

I too am a purist, and am proud to have achieved Grand National Senior status with my '72 Plymouth. (In fact, my former Superbird was the first to get a Grand National 1st.) As a Chrysler car enthusiast, I realize that the AACA just can't be as knowledgeable about each make and model as those at a brand specific event. I know certain cars are well known the AACA...but not all.

The times I went through the AACA judging, I understood that as long as an engine, color, option, etc was available on that car...it wouldn't be a problem for judging. Meaning, my yellow Plymouth could've been painted any 1972 Plymouth color, with a V8 (instead of it's 6)...and none of this woud have garnered a deduction.

Plus...when I went to AACA Judging School, we were told about the "one knee rule". Also, my memory recalls that batteries, headlights, belts, tires, etc need to look correct for the era".

All that being said, it seems to me that when some things are so lax...what is the problem with a tire (again, providing the only way to tell it's "incorrect" is to look on the inside of the tire) as long as it looks right from the outside?

Edited by Matt M, PA (see edit history)

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I was at a swap meet recently and saw one of the radial tires at a tire suppliers spot and on the whitewall side of the tire it does state that it is a "Tubeless Radial". That should make spotting them easier.

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I was at a swap meet recently and saw one of the radial tires at a tire suppliers spot and on the whitewall side of the tire it does state that it is a "Tubeless Radial". That should make spotting them easier.

If indeed this is the case...then a deduction would make sense.

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I have a problem with AACA allowing ANY type of paint and just saying it is OK to be OVER-RESTORED,

and also AACA sometimes allows items for safety.

WHY, WHY then does AACA nit-pik tires to death. Isn't the new tire just Over-Restored AND a safety item both?

Unless the average buyer (maybe even a picky one) would notice the difference on the lot, when they went to buy the car, I would allow them.

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If a rule is in the book ... then just follow the rule.

If the rule seems unfair or incorrect ... then bring it up at the correct forum and make your case for a change.

If we had machines doing the judging ... they would probably be 100% consistent. (no knee issues)

We are humans and are not infallible. We do the best that we can, in the situation we are in. It's about being period correct ... but also about being fun! If we are not having fun by getting all bent up about a judging topic ... well ...

I personally disagree with quite a few rules in the book ... but if I want to get a prize by having my car judged by the rules in the book, then I might as well play by the book and follow those rules.

I believe the ACCA is just trying to make the playing field static and as even and fair as possible within a dynamic hobby.

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