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New tires and their role in 2014 class judging


real61ss
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OK, it's been a long cold winter and things have been little too quiet here lately, time to get something going;)

Lets talk about tires and their role in 2014 AACA class judging, mainly the new radial tires that are designed to look like the old bias ply tires that came on our cars. I'm not talking about the widewhite radials that we have been seeing, most people probably know by now that Coker Tire Co. has developed a new radial tire that appears to be a bias ply tire, so much so that it received the Sema Best New product award this winter. It has a tread that looks like a bias ply tire, it has the "pie-crust" edge that the old bias ply tires had, it is tall and narrow like a bias ply tire. I checked the spec's. on a bias ply 8:00x14 verses the new 800Rx14 and they are virtually the same, the height is the same, the section width is actually narrower than the bias ply with a tread width that is just a little wider. Based on the section width and the tread width it is easy to see that they have created a tire with a straight (vertical) sidewall that will not have the bulge that we are accustomed to seeing. We are used to spotting a radial tire a mile away because they have always been shorter, wider and have that "flat" look. This is no longer going to be the case. These new sizes are available mostly for the fifties and sixties cars but other sizes are coming. Then, you also have Diamond Back Classic's with their own version of the new look radial, know as the "Auburn Deluxe Radial", These are available mostly in 16" sizes but other sizes will soon be available. They also have the "pie crust" edge and an even more realistic looking tread than the Coker tire does.

Having only seen photos of the new tires I can only wonder what markings are on the tires. Do they have the R that identifies the radial? I can tell you that in their advertisements, under tire labeling, Coker has a statement that makes reference to The Tread Act of 2000 and the fact that it requires certain information be labeled on the sidewalls of a modern tire. Coker makes it clear that these new tires are for use only on cars manufactured prior to 1976. Does this mean the tires will have nothing that identified them as radials? Don't know until I see one which will surely be at Charlotte next month.

I'm wondering....are we as AACA judges up to the task of identifying these tires? Or, if they look exactly like bias ply tires does it really make a difference anymore? What say? What do you guys and gals think?

I'm betting this will get some adrenalin flowing.....what you think :rolleyes:

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If they look like bias ply tires and aren't labeled as radials how would a judge know? I suspect they are R labeled in which case there would still be a deduction. Is there any real evidence that radials are safer on older cars originally designed for bias tires?

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By law all tire makers are required to put the proper codes and tire makeup on their product. This applies to big or small tire makers. The Mid-Year

Corvettes original tires had no D.O.T. markings on them. The Coker reproductions tires are required to have the D.O.T. labels on them. Of course the

NCRS and Bloomington Gold org. dock points for having that label. The way is should be because they are not original. Larry

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By law all tire makers are required to put the proper codes and tire makeup on their product. This applies to big or small tire makers. The Mid-Year

Corvettes original tires had no D.O.T. markings on them. The Coker reproductions tires are required to have the D.O.T. labels on them. Of course the

NCRS and Bloomington Gold org. dock points for having that label. The way is should be because they are not original. Larry

The following is a quotation from the 2014 Coker Catalog, pg 66

TIRE LABELING

"The TREAD ACT of 2000 requires that certain information be labeled on the sidewalls of a modern tire. Vintage car collectors desire their vehicles to have the most authentic look possible including vintage look tires. Thus, tires in the Coker Catalog with this notation are intended only for collectible motor vehicles having a gross vehicle weight (GVWR) of 10,000 pounds or less, that were manufactured prior to 1976 and are therefore exempt from the labeling requirement."

Diamond Back Classic's remove the markings from the sidewall of their tires.

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The following is a quotation from the 2014 Coker Catalog, pg 66

TIRE LABELING

"The TREAD ACT of 2000 requires that certain information be labeled on the sidewalls of a modern tire. Vintage car collectors desire their vehicles to have the most authentic look possible including vintage look tires. Thus, tires in the Coker Catalog with this notation are intended only for collectible motor vehicles having a gross vehicle weight (GVWR) of 10,000 pounds or less, that were manufactured prior to 1976 and are therefore exempt from the labeling requirement."

Diamond Back Classic's remove the markings from the sidewall of their tires.

Tommy: Looks like it a difference of language. Here is my e=mails from Coker. Larry,

Hello: Thinking of having my 1966 Corvette judged with the NCRS. As you know they look at everything closely.

Does your reproduction tires for the above have any markings on them eg. DOT Labels and etc. that where not

on the original tires back in 1966?? Let me know when you can. Larry

Thank you for checking with us at Coker Tire. Our tires are made in original molds but will have DOT dates as it is required for street legal tires made or manufactured after a certain date to have them. I suggest checking with judges to see what is accepted and allowed as many collectors and show participants use our tires on Concours judged shows.

Thank you

Richard Stephens

The only thing I can think of is they might have some tires W/O the markings for "Display" purposes only; not to be driven on the street.

I have seen a lots of reproductions tires that have been docked points from the premier judging org.

Larry

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  • 3 weeks later...

This was covered by the AACA recognized expert on all things "tire", Eric/Rick Marsh, at the Team Captain's school at the Hornet's Nest Region Spring Meet at Charlotte Motor Speedway this past Saturday.

We were alerted to these new tires with the markings on the inside wall of the tires vs. the standard markings on the outside wall.

1.) We were asked to reconsider putting the judge with the least amount of credit on as the chassis judge. If that person is experienced enough to know what they are looking for then it was okay. But if they aren't then put them on something else and have a more experienced judge handle that so that those tires don't slip through. At five points per tire we can't afford to get this wrong and hand out awards to cheaters.

2.) Eric/Rick suggested that we should go by our local Harbor Freight with the coupon they send out and get one of the free mini LED flashlights to be able to see the back side of the tires to look for the markings. And yes he had one of those flashlights in his pocket to show what size they are and how easily they can be carried.

So be warned....AACA is onto this new trend and they are out to penalized those that want to skirt the rule.

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Susan,

What does this do to the "old one knee" rule that chassis judges have long been preached too about. Got to be a pretty darn flexible to read the back side of a tire while holding a flash light and balancing on one knee :D I'm not criticizing, just having fun with it. Might need to issue chassis judges a periscope

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................. Might need to issue chassis judges a periscope

Personally, I think we should get back to what we have been taught all along. "As the dealer could have prepared the vehicle for delivery to the customer!"

If we can not see any non-authentic part of the vehicle while on "one knee", what is the point? The general public comes to us to see antique vehicles as they would have been back in the day.

No disrespect to Eric, but there has to be limits to what is expected of AACA judges.

Wayne

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I think that what Susan is talking about is using a small flashlight to see the markings on the back side of the tire on the far side of a car while you are looking at the chassis on one knee. Even with a flashlight my eyes are not that good anymore. If I can't tell that something is wrong with a tire by looking at it closely, I don't see a problem with it. If it appears to me to be correct that is sufficient for me.

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The idea is to preserve vehicles as they should be. Not seek ways to get around that. If people want to have radial tires and Halogen headlights then they can do that and still come to AACA shows and put their vehicle in the DPC class where those things are permitted.

This is not a game to see what owners can get away with. Correct tires and headlights are available. Buy them if you want to show in class judging. It really is that simple.

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I read this thread over and over and I still wonder what is the point. I'm a member of the HCCA and we have a very different attitude. We are just glad to see the cars in use and really don't give a damn about the correct tire, T3 headlights, or the like. Maybe, just maybe, the car owner wants the additional safety that a radial tire gives over bias and wants to take advantage of that. "This is not a game to see what owners can get away with." is petty at best. Sorry , but this thread is an example of why I don't show my cars at AACA meets.... I know many will come after me about this, but that's how I feel.....

Frank

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I understand and truly appreciate the HCCA's stance on keeping the cars on the road. I do have to wonder if it's really a comparable situation to the AACA. Which HCCA car owners use radial tires and t-3 headlights? Seriously though, is this very different than sharpeed spark plugs? Optimas clad in period correct looking boxes? If added measures are neccesary to uncover the cheater, How is this different than underdash wiring, engine internal modifications and improper padding in the seats. I prefer bias ply on the few cars we have that can possibly wear radials but if it, for all practical appearances, looks identical on the outside or in other languages "as it could appear at dealer delivery" Then why is there a problem? If National Awards are given to cars that have been knowingly and publicly rebodied (It's a sedan with a chopped off top, sleeve valves and all) cars Isn't it a bit hypocritical to attack someone for, while crawling on your belly with a flashlight, you were able to find a tiny detail that will knock a car out of competition while deifying, awarding and celebrating what is an obvious attempt to create an inflated value out of a desireless sedan that didn't even have the guts to compete on its' own turf (according to the manual, All Stearns Knights are full classics but that is a tough place to compete so the owner chose to register in a production class for an easier brass tab and to then validate with AACA awards to insure a higher value. It's a funny place to pick a battle'

Edited by sambarn (see edit history)
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It's a funny place to pick a battle'

:D

I smile each time I see Sam post something. Sam, you remind me so much of your Dad!

I foresee you going far in the AACA. Remember that Wayne said that!;)

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I understand and truly appreciate the HCCA's stance on keeping the cars on the road. I do have to wonder if it's really a comparable situation to the AACA. Which HCCA car owners use radial tires and t-3 headlights? Seriously though, is this very different than sharpeed spark plugs? Optimas clad in period correct looking boxes? If added measures are neccesary to uncover the cheater, How is this different than underdash wiring, engine internal modifications and improper padding in the seats. I prefer bias ply on the few cars we have that can possibly wear radials but if it, for all practical appearances, looks identical on the outside or in other languages "as it could appear at dealer delivery" Then why is there a problem? If National Awards are given to cars that have been knowingly and publicly rebodied (It's a sedan with a chopped off top, sleeve valves and all) cars Isn't it a bit hypocritical to attack someone for, while crawling on your belly with a flashlight, you were able to find a tiny detail that will knock a car out of competition while deifying, awarding and celebrating what is an obvious attempt to create an inflated value out of a desireless sedan that didn't even have the guts to compete on its' own turf (according to the manual, All Stearns Knights are full classics but that is a tough place to compete so the owner chose to register in a production class for an easier brass tab and to then validate with AACA awards to insure a higher value. It's a funny place to pick a battle'

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, why not accept it as being a duck? I've been in AACA for 52 years, and have been judging since 1970, and have a total of 215 National judging credits. Sealed beam bulbs not available (Chrysler bullseye) can be replaced with a pair of identical bulbs, Pantasote no longer available can be replaced with vinyl, they make alternators look like generators (genernator), base coat/clear coat is acceptable in the place of nitro lacquer or oldtime enamel. In times gone by you couldn't paint a GM car with enamel instead of lacquer. When it comes to tires, it is true that a car drives straighter on today's grooved roads with radials, but I disagree they are safer. I never knew a bias tire to ply separate or come apart and tear up a fender on a car. That's just a personal opinion you may not agree with, and beside the point as well. The fact remains that if the tire looks like a bias, the marking is hidden on the back side, then it gives the appearance of authenticity just as does some fabrics and basecoat/clearcoat. The one difference is the point can be made is that Coker and others still make the bias tire. Well, can't you still get lacquer from Europe? It's time to reload, and re-look at this tire question if truly in fact these new tires look exactly like the old bias tire. The one thing that scares me is that if AACA does that, then bias tires will become unavailable in some sizes and people like me with a 6.50x16 tire will be forced to use radial conversions and then I would live in fear of tearing up a very rare fender. I've seen on my Suburban and on my car trailer what a radial tire that blows out and comes apart can do to a fender.

Edited by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)
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The AACA has it's own rules and the best judges and Certified Team Captains/Team Captains follow them to the letter as written in the Official Judging Guidelines. Personal opinion doesn't matter when it comes to our judging system. Our club is about the preservation of the vehicles as they could have come from the factory, and the dealership, which includes any options for the year, make and specific model of vehicle.

Yes, there are items that have things like Sharpie applied to make them look correct. But as far as I have heard those things are permitted because some items are no longer available due to laws and restrictions. So owners are permitted to use an item that as closely as possible resembles the original piece to keep the vehicle looking as authentic as possible.

Tires don't fall into that. Correct bias ply tires, for vehicles that should have them, are still available. People just don't want to do what needs to be done if they want to ride on radial tires. And that is spend the money to have two sets of tires and rims. One set to ride around in and one set to put on when they show at AACA National Meets. So they are going to take the chance. Well folks, the AACA Judging Committee is now cautioning us to watch for these tires specifically. The penalty for having them is the full 5 points per tire. So you get to choose. Use incorrect tires and take the hit when we catch you. And we will. You might skate past a team with less experience. It happens. But don't wail and throw a tantrum to the V.P. of Class Judging when you get nailed for them. It doesn't matter how far you drove, or trailered your vehicle, or how much money you spent. Those tires are incorrect. They will be deducted for.

Many times the issue that people raise about radials being "safer" and been beaten do death here. As some folks have presented evidence that in truth the older suspension systems and the older wheels weren't designed to have the stress that a radial tire will put on them. So where does it end? How far back into the vehicle do you think they should allow owners to modify their vehicles to have radials. I vote for not at all.

Antique vehicles are like art that moves. Art should not be modified from the way the artist created it.

The rules of other clubs do not apply in our system. When someone comes into the AACA they need to check other clubs rules and ways at the door. If someone can not do that, then please don't get into our judging system. We judge fairly and honestly and to the requirements of the AACA standards.

P.S. The AACA does not require the use of specific brands of headlights, (ie. T-3 Westinghouse, FoMoCo, etc.) The headlights must be correct for the era and they must match by brand and era. GE is not the same as General Electric, they are two different eras. According to the new Guidelines, starting this year, we are now to deduct the full 3 points for headlights that are not the correct era. And we also deduct the full 3 points for any non-matching headlight. If a vehicle has four headlights and they are all different, then only one is considered correct and therefore the vehicle will lose 9 points. Been there and deducted that at the Charlotte Meet. The devil is in the details folks.

Also, brand of tire does not matter. But like headlights they should match, the spare doesn't have to but should be the correct size and type, and be of the correct era. If your vehicle could have had radial tires as a factory option then by all means get them. But be sure to have your factory issued documentation to show to the Team Captain when they ask for it.

It is the duty of all AACA members, not just those that judge, to uphold the rules of this club. If people want change then go about it the right way. Get your published proof together and submit it to the AACA judging committee and see what they say. I got one rule put into the book that had been known about for years but somehow was missed in putting it into the guidelines, the rule about the brand of headlights not mattering. And I got one rule changed because it wasn't fair, they went from us taking the full (at the time) 5 points off per headlight if someone had put Halogen headlights in that shouldn't have had them), to a mandatory 10 points off for even one Halogen headlight. I judged two cars, one had one Halogen out of four and one had two Halogens out of two. It wasn't fair to give them both the same deduction. So I sent and letter and outlined all this and suggested that they reduce the deduction to 3 points per headlight. That was accepted and is now the rule. I went about it the right way.

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................. So I sent and letter and outlined all this and suggested that they reduce the deduction to 3 points per headlight. That was accepted and is now the rule. I went about it the right way.

And that is the proper way to handle a change of policy. May I say though, telling another club's judges to not join us because of our rules, is just turning away new members. Someday that other club's rules may become our rules.

It's NEVER cut and dried when it comes to the AACA.

Policy, Procedure, and Yes!, even rules change quite often.

I had a former Board member tell me this past weekend that he could not advise a member about a certain rule now, because he was not on "the inside" anymore. It's a fact of life, things change.

Wayne

Edited by R W Burgess (see edit history)
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OK, it's been a long cold winter and things have been little too quiet here lately, time to get something going;)

...

Lets talk about tires and their role in 2014 AACA class judging, mainly the new radial tires that are designed to look like the old bias ply tires that came on our cars.

I'm wondering....are we as AACA judges up to the task of identifying these tires? Or, if they look exactly like bias ply tires does it really make a difference anymore? What say? What do you guys and gals think?

I'm betting this will get some adrenalin flowing.....what you think :rolleyes:

Since I already posted once, I might as well chime in again. I have not seen these tires yet. If they truly look like the original equipment bias ply tires, I don't expect to try to look for the small markings on the back of the tires. If they don't look like the original equipment bias ply tires, then I would certainly take the deductions as non-authentic.

A lot of this discussion is really speculation which is apparently what the original poster was looking for.

If these tires look 100% authentic, I don't anticipate them causing a problem. If they don't look authentic, then I expect a lot of people will find out that they spent a lot of money on tires that will cost them a lot of points on an AACA Showfield.

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..... May I say though, telling another club's judges to not join us because of our rules, is just turning away new members. Someday that other club's rules may become our rules. .....Wayne

Wayne, and others, that is not what I said. This is what I said. "...The rules of other clubs do not apply in our system. When someone comes into the AACA they need to check other clubs rules and ways at the door. If someone can not do that, then please don't get into our judging system." I specifically asked that those that can't ignore another clubs rules not try to be AACA judges. That isn't running anyone off that has the ability to put on a new hat and judge the way we do. Some people can't do that. Their other club's way of judging is so ingrained they just can't swing over to the AACA way without having a stroke in the process. Those people drive a Team Captain up a wall with their wanting to judge by rules and standards that currently are not in line with the AACA way of doing things.

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MCHinson, We were told by Herb Oaks and Rick Marsh to look for the incorrect new radial tires and deduct for them when we find them. We weren't told they were okay if they looked okay. We were told they are wrong no matter how they look.

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Susan,

My point is that if they look identical to original equipment tires, I suspect that many judges will be unable to read markings on the back side of the tire. The judging guidelines state:

"Batteries, headlights, belts, tires, hoses and clamps may be of modern manufacture, but must be visually of the era of the vehicle and of the type specified by the vehicle manufacturer. Specific brand is not important."

I too have heard Herb Oaks discussing how we need to do a better job of finding incorrect items such as radial tires when cars are going for their first junior or their senior. It is not good for judges to fail to find such issues and then an owner being surprised when a major deduction is found on a car going for its Grand National award.

When I have seen these "new" tires, I will have a better idea. I doubt there is a radial tire that looks 100% authentic. If it looks 100% identical to the original, and I don't see obvious markings to indicate it is incorrect, I don't see where there is a problem. If it does not look 100% authentic, it is quite clear that an appropirate deduction will be taken. I think we all need to actually see what we are talking about before we stake out positions on the issue.

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Good morning, I normally don't spend any time on the forum because I have other things on my plate that need to get done. Last night the phone rang and I was informed that a tire thread was making a run and maybe I should chime in.

I've just read each of the entries and I believe Susan has done a pretty good summation. I wish to add this.

We have an AACA General Policy that says we are to ensure that our vehicles look the way they did when accepted from the dealer with factory authorized accessories and intended for road use.

We are the club that focuses on authenticity first and workmanship second.

That takes time. I can build a street rod in 90 days but it takes 2,000 hours or better to restore a vehicle.

Our members have a choice. If they want to restore, they show in class judging (like our 1953 Kaiser). If they want to take a deviation or two and still "look" authentic, we have DPC (like my Barracuda)

In class judging, 98% of the people understand this and go to great lengths to get it right. Look at class 36 for example and these folks are right down to the inspection marks.

In class judging we also have the 2% who don't get it and say," It's up to the judge to catch me". I would like to just buy them a trophy out of my own pocket and send them home because they have completely missed the spirit of the club.

The wrong tire situation has been pretty much a post WWII vehicle situation and two suppliers have changed that situation. Their sales reps are knowingly selling our members the incorrect tires. This is not illegal. I personally think it is unethical. I have already found other places to by my next set of tires.

We as judges do the best job we can to verify that the car vehicle was restored correctly. With over 2,800 manufacturers, this is a big job. When I get down on two knees (one knee doesn't work in my world) and see no markings on the sidewall, I look on the backside of the tire for size / type just to be sure. Yes, Mr Burgess, you can see the backside of the tire in most cases.

I also ask the owner for documentation. That is usually when the owner says the tires are "dimensionally correct". Where do you think the owner picked up that language?

I've rambled on so let me close with this and then I'll go back out to the garage.

We are arguably the leading club in the old car hobby. We attract membership based on quality. Quality can be defined as conformance to the specification. Our specification is our AACA General Policy.

These vehicles are pieces of our history. An authentic restoration is a statement of respect for that history.

See you down the road, Rick Marsh

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I can't answer that question. Radial tires drive straighter on today's roads, but you will never convince me they are safer. I never had but one bias tire blow out in my 59 years of driving, but I've had many a radial tire blow out. I've driven bias tires I've had on my cars that were 30 years old with no fear of them blowing out, if they still had good tread. I've driven radial tires with new-like tread that were only six or seven years old that ply separated or blew out, and brother when they blow out, there goes your fender. We all know what the rules are, why fight the system? If you want to take a chance of a bent fender for a straighter drive and you don't want to buy new tires every six years, that's fine, that's your business. I have radials on my driver car, but they are new and made in a real factory that makes modern tires for modern cars. But, I also have a set of SPARE rallye wheels to put radials on my wife's 71 Riviera if/when we decide to not show but drive or in case we want to do both show and tour with the car just like Rick says you can do. I don't mind the cost of that nearly as much as I do the effort at 75 years old. :) Sometimes I can't fathom all of the rules, but I abide by them until they are changed. And, you won't get any rules changed by carping on the forum. Now one thing. Even though I do not believe bias tires age like radial tires do, I don't recommend using NOS tires. You simply do not know how they have been stored. AACA has accounted for that. If your size tire is not available, you are allowed to use the next closest size that is available.

Edited by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)
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Can you tell me if this tire is a radial or bias?

What it looks like doesn't matter. What it is matters. How did you not get that from what Rick Marsh wrote? The debate is over. He clarified the rule.

If the rule ever changes officially then judges will judge according to the new rule. Until then we judge by the current rules.

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I just posted a picture of a tire to let everyone know what they look like. Yes, it is a radial tire and maybe when we see one up close and personal you might notice some differences with a bias, but they look convincing to me and may slip by many judges trained eyes, even with advanced warning.

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Rick Marsh, Love your intregrity and knowledge, and you are one of the people I enjoy talking to every year at Hershey. Looking forward to seeing you in 2014 althought I've trade my spaces next to you to Alex and Rich I'll still be close by. You are without a doubt the 'AACA tire expert'. Thanks.

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Another though came to mind after I depressed the the 'Enter Key' on my previous reply, and here is: Get a 'JUDGING MANUAL', and read the bloody thing because it says it all concerning the AACA judging standards and what we as judges look for. By the way since you're on the Forum why not go out and read the 'ONLINE' copy of the judging manual, and save yourself a few bucks by not buying one from AACA headquarters, or better yet join the AACA judging program and learn what the judges look for.

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Another though came to mind after I depressed the the 'Enter Key' on my previous reply, and here is: Get a 'JUDGING MANUAL', and read the bloody thing because it says it all concerning the AACA judging standards and what we as judges look for. By the way since you're on the Forum why not go out and read the 'ONLINE' copy of the judging manual, and save yourself a few bucks by not buying one from AACA headquarters, or better yet join the AACA judging program and learn what the judges look for.

I agree. I have promoted folks going to the judging school and CJEs for years just to learn how and why we judge the way we do. And now with the Official Judging Guidelines available on-line for free they don't even have to buy one. Or if, as you suggested and I have in the past, they go to the class they get the book for free.

AACA judging is not a secret handshake closed group. Judges will help anyone that wants to learn. In the past at Hershey after the judging I would pick someone from the class I judged or was Team Captain for and go back and hand them my copy of the Guidelines. Not one person turned them down. Everyone took them and thanked me. Now I suggest they come here and read the book here.

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My concern would be this. Lets say it's a large meet. After bending down and "flashlighting" 10 cars fatigue may set in and the last few get judged a little more lax than say the first 6. However let me be quick to say I am one of those purists that insists everything be as correct as possible down to the letters/numbers on the tires. My wife says I'm OCD. I always say "no ,I just like things to be perfect.";)

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My concern would be this. Lets say it's a large meet. After bending down and "flashlighting" 10 cars fatigue may set in and the last few get judged a little more lax than say the first 6. However let me be quick to say I am one of those purists that insists everything be as correct as possible down to the letters/numbers on the tires. My wife says I'm OCD. I always say "no ,I just like things to be perfect.";)

billybird: I also agree with you to have things fair and perfect. What happened to me at last years Grand National at Moline IL is related to what you said. It was

raining on/off all day and the judges where really pushed for time. I was parked in the middle of the largest class last year. (Class 36b) Anyway after they judged my car the deluge came and never let up. I was unfornunate to be the last car that got the chassis judged. All the cars on my right got a "free ride" on the chassis.

Not complaining as the judges did the best they could do. I was just unlucky. Larry

P.S. Don't know the policy but I would like if this happens and not everybody is judged completely that the section not judge for all (chassis) should

be eliminated in the tabulation for all. It was not because I saw some points docked off when I got my scoring sheet back in the mail.FYI

Edited by llskis (see edit history)
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