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New to the Riviera -Part 2


DaveC6970

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Hello again,

As you may remember my thread from a couple weeks back, you all were advising me on 66 that I was trying to buy. Well, I have never heard back on my offer for their nicely preserved but non-running car, so I assumed that was a no. It's too bad because the car deserves a better fate that it's getting.

Anyway, not to be stopped on my hunt for a nice Riv I responded to an ad for a 64 one owner car. Crazy enough the ad was similar to the first car, one owner (mom) SoCal car, well maintained by father, but parents have passed and the car has been sitting. This car has been on the road as recently as 2012, but the car is not currently running. My buddy and I checked it out yesterday and it appears to be a pretty solid car. Wearing most of its original paint with the usual surface rust where it's thinned. It does have all the trim though it needs replating. No rust in the trunk or floors that we could find. The car has been sitting in the California sun for some time and that has taken its toll on the interior. Door panels are faded and it will need upholstery, headliner, package tray.

Asking price was $7500, which seemed fair enough? but I am not a Riviera expert (still learning). After sleeping on it I've decided to pass on this car, not necessarily for the money, but it's a bit bigger project than I want to take on. Below are few pics I took if anyone wants to see it. I can post a link to his ad, the owner is a nice fellow. I'm not sure what the policy is on links to ads though, don't want to get in trouble.

Thanks again, Dave

Dave Carter

roa# 14284 (still looking for my first Riv)

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I have to say this, though my viewpoint is probably different to you guys over the pond; I would take that car for that price in a second. If the body is as solid as you say, those interior issues are minor. Go for it mate.

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The '64 is a good choice. I'm sure you have recognized it is the best looking of all three years already.

This car comes under the heading of "benevolently neglected". Making it run, no matter what is wrong should be budgeted at $2,000, minimum. It looks all the mechanical consumables will need attention. Brakes, cooling system, and suspension will probably eat up around $3,000. I would allow $2,000 for the interior. New tires, glass beading the wheels will be another $1200. The body work will include all new rubber, I'm sure. You'll be just under $15,000 with a good driver needing paint for the summer of 2014. After paint you will be in the low $20's. But, you will have a car that you were in charge of the refurbishing job on. There is a lot of value in that part of it compared to buying a finished one.

$7500 isn't a bad entry fee for a sound project car these days. If you want a reference point, just take 75 crisp new 100 dollar bills down to the Buick dealer and fan them out. Tell the salesman you have "cash in hand". Wait until you see what you can buy.

Bernie

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Wow you guys are really making me rethink my decision on this.

I get what you're saying Bernie, the car I end up with will be a car I had 100% control of the restoration. When you think about it, I could make the car exactly like I want. Maybe I change the whole color combo to whatever I want. I had been looking for a car not needing much in the way of restoration but maybe this could be better in the end.

What to do, what to do...

thanks again fellas, Dave

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OK Dave: I like the car. Two issues are pretty simple. It's an easy cosmetic restoration. It's unmolested, original and it isn't a rust bucket. The interior is also easy because the original authentic pieces are available. It has a custom interior, a/c and power windows so that part's also covered.

The major problem? Everything is really expensive to do a nice job. Let's take the mechanical part. Let's say the engine will come to life after a brief hibernation. If you are going to use this car it is almost certain that it will need a rebuild sooner than later. A Nailhead rebuild is now pushing 6 grand after adding up all the tiny insignificant stuff like a carb rebuild, tune up parts, labor, etc. The interior? It's just money too. I can see at least $3,000 even with the Clark's kit. There's the trunk to also consider too. Paint? You have the very best start one could imagine. A quality paint job is 5 grand easy. Chrome? Pick a price.

So you can see that even if you are a master technician and can do most of the work yourself shaping this baby up will be way north of $20K. 20K + 7.5K +27.5. I'm positive you can buy a fantastic one for at least half of that. I have been there and done this a few times....recently. I feel this is a great car to start with but the asking price is ridiculous. I love this car at $2,500, perhaps a bit more running good. Bottom line, it's your dough. Mitch

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Guest clamshells

Find a dry car jump on it!

Bright work and re-chrome-able parts worthy of a driver or refinish are just icing on the cake. Pics are deceiving, but if the car is rust free (as 50 year old car can be) and no one hacked 6X9 speakers cutouts, etc............ you are doing very good.

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Hey Mitch, thanks for the advice.

My gut feeling was to pass on it because the car does really need a lot more work than I wanted to take on. We are in SoCal on a temporary assignment for my job and I'm not really set up for a major tear down. Not a lot of space and I had to leave most of my big tools (welder/hoist/eng. stand) back home. But I must say the idea of picking a color combo is enticing. Your statement about finding one for 1/2 that finished cost gives me hope. My budget was around 15k and I would think that should get you a decent car.

BTW, is it OK to link the ad for this 64? The owner is a nice guy and I thought maybe someone here might be interested.

Thanks, Dave

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You could always just clean it up and make it safe and drive it! The beauty of today's car world is it doesn't have to be perfect, just cool. And with a Riv you have that covered. I own a beautifully restored 1970 Chevelle and when I park it next to my Son's Riv nobody's looking at the Chevelle!

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My budget was around 15k and I would think that should get you a decent car.

BTW, is it OK to link the ad for this 64? The owner is a nice guy and I thought maybe someone here might be interested.

Thanks, Dave

YES you can find a beautiful car needing only minor TLC for 15k and even less. Patience is key.

YES post away. We love and encourage links to Rivieras for sale!

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I'm reminded of a 1964 Cadillac Fleetwood I looked at once. It was advertised as a one owner perfect original car, bought new by the owner's Uncle.

When I pulled a handful of body colored steel wool from under the wheel lip the seller almost had a stroke. 50 years is a long time for a car to exist without being molested.

I could slip a car off the a body shop for a peanut butter job and my nephews would never know.

Whatever the car don't expect it to be as represented. Expect to redo everything that was done. It looks like you are interested in a project. Buy a project.

When buying a car that is not supposed to be a project there are important questions to ask:

Is the car licensed and insured now? No is a bad answer.

How long have you owned the car? Less than 2 years should make one wary. If you think you see iron being sold by "flippers" on TV, wait until you buy the car an owner is trying to escape from.

Have you done any major work on the car? "No Sir, she's been reliable and faithful, never spent a nickle." Wrong answer, everything wears out. You get the deferred maintenance.

I bought my car when it was 15 years old. It was the special keeper driven by the owner of the car lot and ready to take to a car show. All I have had to do outside of regular maintenance is, paint it (color change from brown), remove the chassis, sandbast,and paint it, install all new springs and bushings, rebuild the engine, recore the radiator, remove the wiring harness, unwrap it and service each connector, then rewrap, install a new carpet and headliner, complete brake job with glass beaded and epoxied drums, install all new body mounts, and rebuild the driveshaft. This winter I am working on the new interior, repainting the whole car, detailing the trunk, and some routine fluid flushes and other things.

The thought of buying someone else's "restoration" work makes me sit here and shudder. Go in with your eyes wide open knowing nothing is what it appears to be, the most you can expect to get is what you pay for (never more), and that cars are so expensive some people can't afford to own one.

Then, sit down and concentrate. Think about who the first person would be to ignore Bernie's preaching........ My wife knows.

Bernie

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Well, the Riviera gods must be smiling on me. The owner just sent me an email saying if I was still interested I could have the car for 6k. After a short cell phone discussion regarding a few of my concerns I agreed to the 6k price. I'll pick her up next weekend.

Thanks again to everyone for their advice, I'm sure there's about 1000 more questions coming your way.... Dave

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You guys are cruel, goading poor Dave into spending his future life savings like that. Now he's hooked and will never be able to part with that clunker, and will end up dumping all his allowance into it from now on…. Wait! What was that noise? Oh, s#@!, that was Daves wife! Did you hear her too? Everybody HIDE!! Anyway, DaveC, we'll be talking to you. You can have your wife call my wife if she needs to. I would offer to let you crash in my toolshed but its full of old Riviera parts. Oh,yeah, you're going to need a shed. Possibly two. Drew

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You guys are cruel, goading poor Dave into spending his future life savings like that. Now he's hooked and will never be able to part with that clunker, and will end up dumping all his allowance into it from now on…. Wait! What was that noise? Oh, s#@!, that was Daves wife! Did you hear her too? Everybody HIDE!! Anyway, DaveC, we'll be talking to you. You can have your wife call my wife if she needs to. I would offer to let you crash in my toolshed but its full of old Riviera parts. Oh,yeah, you're going to need a shed. Possibly two. Drew

I had to laugh at this especially the toolshed full of Riviera parts.

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Not a shed more like a storage unit.

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You guys are cruel, goading poor Dave into spending his future life savings like that. Now he's hooked and will never be able to part with that clunker, and will end up dumping all his allowance into it from now on…. Wait! What was that noise? Oh, s#@!, that was Daves wife! Did you hear her too? Everybody HIDE!! Anyway, DaveC, we'll be talking to you. You can have your wife call my wife if she needs to. I would offer to let you crash in my toolshed but its full of old Riviera parts. Oh,yeah, you're going to need a shed. Possibly two. Drew

Or Family Room..........Riving Room?!??!?!

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Well, this story just never seems to end. The owner was pretty confident this car would run. So since he had a local mechanic that he trusts and is familiar with the car, I suggested we send the car to him so he could get it running. Plus I wanted to be sure it would really run as he said and I would prefer to drive the car home instead of towing. So the car has been at the Mechanics all day and no luck, he says the car is not getting spark. Replaced a 9 year old battery, new points/condenser, nothing no fire. This mechanic is a real ray of sunshine too, proceeds to tell me about how this car is full of rat s**t and is a real money pit. If I wanted to take it somewhere else go right ahead. Honestly, I think maybe I should take his advice, offer to pay for costs incurred up to this point, and pass on this car. I know, their all money pits, but at some point I should cut my losses and find a better car. Dave

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No matter if you pass on this car or not, get the car away from this guy now. As we know, attitude is a lot when we work on these things. He doesn't want to do the work needed, or even care if he looses your business with this car. Get it away from him as fast as possible. He will make this car into a money pit, even if it isn't already.

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Well, this story just never seems to end. The owner was pretty confident this car would run. So since he had a local mechanic that he trusts and is familiar with the car, I suggested we send the car to him so he could get it running. Plus I wanted to be sure it would really run as he said and I would prefer to drive the car home instead of towing. So the car has been at the Mechanics all day and no luck, he says the car is not getting spark. Replaced a 9 year old battery, new points/condenser, nothing no fire. This mechanic is a real ray of sunshine too, proceeds to tell me about how this car is full of rat s**t and is a real money pit. If I wanted to take it somewhere else go right ahead. Honestly, I think maybe I should take his advice, offer to pay for costs incurred up to this point, and pass on this car. I know, their all money pits, but at some point I should cut my losses and find a better car. Dave

You have a couple options from my perspective: Use the mechanics exact words to negotiate drastically lower the price. Like half of what you agreed to. Maybe he is right or just doesn't have a clue about old cars. Engine rebuilds start at $3000 and thats you doing some of the work. If it doesn't run the risk is all yours and you need to factor worst case into the decision. Being in Cali its not like you won't find other nice cars at decent prices.

You had mentioned you have up to a $15k budget for a car. You may want to pass on this car spend that or close to it and buy the best car you can. Your money will go alot further towards a car you can enjoy right away and a long time in the future and believe me, there will still be plenty of things that need TLC to keep you busy. Partial or full restorations on these Rivieras can be very challenging as well as fun but one thing is for sure, there will unexpected surprises and cost as you progress with the project.

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I just spoke with the owner and he was OK with me passing on the car. He does plan to get the car running before advertising again and I believe that is a good idea. Once this happens I offered to help him with the ad, what pictures to take, how to word it, because I do believe this car is worth saving. I'll be sure and post a link to his ad once this happens.

Thanks to everyone for the comments and advice, it is appreciated. Now the search continues....

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I agree w/ steelman/ it is imperative that you find a mechanic who WANTS to work on that car, not a guy who think's he's doing you a favor. I've been lucky finding guys who want to work on my 67- everything from " I just wanted to keep up on my old school skills". to "I like to show off my skills". to "We had one like that when we were kids". If you can spot a tear in his eye, he's your guy.

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It might be a good time to assess your motivation. Why do I REALLY want this car or an old car in general? Once you put your finger on your base motivation and recognized that this path is going to cost the whole $20,000 predicted, whole new vistas may open.

In 1984 I had been in the hobby for about 25 years. I had owned a lot of cars in various condition, many uncompleted projects. Lot's of subassemblies had been made perfect but never a whole car fully restored. At around 10 PM that evening I was in Moline, Il. under the lights in the back row of a second rate used car lot. (I'm a thrill to go on a business trip with.)

I was looking at an early 1970's big Mercury, black and very clean. The epiphany came that I really liked a sharp car, well maintained, at about 15 years of age. And that should be my goal for condition of my cars, not the 100 point show and better than new job. That night I became determined to maintain that level of condition as my standard. It was realistically achievable.

My whole car life changed and has been a pleasure ever since. Although I'm still fussy and go overboard on some subassemblies, the cars have been a pleasure. In fact, the whole fleet is licensed and runs.

This is a very adaptable hobby and has been in transition since James Melton drove the first collector car in the 1937 New York Easter Parade. Think about taking advantage of the living hobby. Maybe a really sharp 15 year old car will meet all your motivation and a fraction of the cost and be more readily serviceable.

The last car I bought was 15 years old and turns 20 this year. And the local police always compliment it when I get it out.

Bernie

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OK Dave: Please read my blurb again and again. I "think" I know what I'm talking about. If you are looking for a First-Gen Riv that might be a great buy that is similar quality to this try. I believe it's worth a call. The mechanic who looked at the car you wanted to buy is not to be trusted. If he can't gap a fresh set of points and trace down why there's no spark.....even check top dead center I mean come on now!

I think the only reason the owner of the car you committed to called you back is because you were his ONLY prospect because the dough he was asking way out of wack. I think you dodged at least a $3,000 bullet there. Mitch

http://spokane.craigslist.org/pts/4263614674.html

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Guest Dialtone
No matter if you pass on this car or not, get the car away from this guy now. As we know, attitude is a lot when we work on these things. He doesn't want to do the work needed, or even care if he looses your business with this car. Get it away from him as fast as possible. He will make this car into a money pit, even if it isn't already.

I agree with Steve , get the car and yourself away from that mechanic

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I passed on this car basically because of issues just like this, I would much rather sort this car myself vs paying someone else to do it. We are only here in California for a temporary assignment for my employer so most of my tools are stored back home. I'm just not set up here for a big project, which is what this car would be, plus our place is a rental with not a lot of space. I did consider buying the car and shipping it back home to restore once we get back, but I have enough stuff in storage and didn't need to add a Riviera. I'm back to search mode but this time I need to find a running driving car. -Dave

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Just in case anyone might be interested, I posted an ad in the Buick Buy/Sell forum for this car. The owner is nice guy and I thought the forum was more his target buyer. The car is running and driving now, I went and drove it yesterday. Needs a muffler and some other stuff before I would call it a driver though.

-Dave

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Look for the car that you really like, for me it was the 65 rivi, there are deals to be had. The economy is still not that great and I picked up my 65 all intact for 5k and that was back in 2010. Still doing alot of work and money to make it mine, but I would have been disapointed if I had gone after the 64 then kicking myself for not waitng for the 65.

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Adding my hosannas to the above good advice. Be patient and you'll find a good, solid car and your patience will be well rewarded. Bernie Daily is my kinda car guy. Find a car that's been well treated and fix what's necessary, drive and enjoy. Found my '63 after many years of on and off looking at first gen Rivs. Was not fixated on a Riv but when I saw this one I knew it was THE car. Perhaps, by some experienced Riv folks idea, I may have paid too much. Don't ask. It's a one owner, less than 25K mi and was stored for over 25 years so it needs some freshening of dried rubbers - brake hoses, water hoses, trunk seal, plus radiator replace, and surely there'll be other things but I'm having fun - well mostly - doing much of the work myself and imagining how much pleasure we'll have driving this Riv and getting compliments. So the car you seek is out there as my example reenforces. Dale

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Yes, I looked it up on the '63 Ditzler or PPG color chart and the sample looked much darker. Black interior? Speaking of Irish, my wife and I did a week-long walking tour near the Ring of Kerry last summer in SW Ireland. Some fine local brews and country inns! Oh, and the walk was good too!

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Dale (DrP), the car you found is phenomenal and gives us all hope that these cars really do exist. The real trick is finding them. I keep mentioning to everyone I can think of, co-workers, friends, barber, that I'm searching for an early Riviera. Just maybe, someone might know where that elusive car is sitting. I believe you are right about patience being the key. I also enjoy the search, that is part of the fun. -Dave

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