Hot rod take-over?

[Guest De Soto Frank]

A few more thoughts on the topic--<P>I've really had an attack of conscience on this subject; I realize that every one has the "right" to pursue their dreams and their hobbies, but it does sometimes sadden me to see cars that have gone down the "street-rod" path, never to return.<P>At the Scranton region show a couple weeks ago, I happened to walk by a red four-door sedan (circa'29-'31) street-rod, and had to turn around and go back and make sure that I was seeing the make correctly... yep, it WAS a Durant!<BR>Well, fancy that.<BR>To be fair, it was sharp looking, and nicely done, and from what I could tell, completed!<BR>I don't recall when (if ever) I've seen a stock Durant (I'm sure they're out there..).<P>I guess part of the attraction to the "street-rod" is that people want a "driveable" car, with all the creature comforts of their late-model Detroit-iron: A/C, PS,PB, Stereo. etc.<BR>I've even been investigating what sort of "improvements" I can make to my '41 De Soto, to make it more driveable for the 21st century; but that's probably going to be limited to the installation of a period overdrive transmission- something that's "bolt-on" and "reversible", if I need to put it back bone stock.<P>I have to admire the craftsmanship that goes into some of these projects- some of these guys are true craftsmen!<BR>I wish I had some of their body-shop skills to apply to my own restoration-oriented efforts!<P>I guess I feel the saddest when I see a "rare" car gone "street-rod"; it gets worse when I hear the proud owner say something like: "..we started with a straight rust-free original, chopped it 5 inches, ..." and so on.<BR>Okay, NOBODY (rodder or restorer) likes to fix rust, but I think I'd feel more kindly towards someone who created a masterpiece from a rusty old carcass than someone who went to town on a straight, solid relic.<BR>(So when WAS the last time someone saw a stock Willys 77 ?)<P>To each his own; hopefully there will always be interest in restoring cars back to stock, and hopefully us "stockers" (purists, whatever we're called) will bring our "old originals" out to shows and meets regularly, so that folks don't forget that there's such a thing as an antique car.<P>This is one of the reasons I enjoyed the Macungie show so much (it sure wasn't for the heat!): there were so many restored/unrestored old cars (pre-1940), in addition to the '50's & '60's cars that dominate the show field nowadays.<BR>I like OLD, and boy, I sure got it!<P>And, if someone is going to "rod" an old car, I hope they'll at least do so "reponsibly" and hopefully get those "unneeded" original parts into the hands of some restorer and not the dumpster!<P>Maybe we should plan a "restoration counter-takeover"! <p>[ 08-04-2002: Message edited by: DeSoto Frank ]

[Guest JT]

Here's the start of a project I hate to see. I posted this on the Packard forum previously and I hope it's still viewable:<BR> <A HREF="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1842278912" TARGET=_blank>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1842278912</A> <P>What's ashame to me is this car was probably not marketed in a way that someone who would have liked to see this restoration through got a chance at buying it.

[1937hd45]

I know this will annoy some people in the group. The reason many cars and parts go to the "rodders" is because they step up and pay for them. If an item is priced fairly nobody wants to listen to a song and dance by sombody trying to get it for less. Most rodders I hnow, know that time is money. If you start with a rust free car it will get finished quicker and for less money. Who in their right mind looks for a rusty project? Fords from 1932-34 have priced themselves off limits for many, that is why "rare??" Durants, and Willy-Knights turn up as rods, bet they drove home for less than five grand. If you want to try and stop rodding, start buying.

[Dave@Moon]

I think that 1937hd45's comments on saving rare cars from hot-rodding (and eventual meltdown into refridgerator bodies), while meritous, is unrealistic. At the same time it's a little short of what is necessary. <P>I think the majority of us who spend time posting on this forum are most likely financially involved in the hobby to our respective limits already. I know myself that if I brought another orphan car home tonight I'd be asking one of you guys if I could sleep on your couch tommorrow! There <I>is</I> another way to approach the problem.<P>I don't think that the appeal of the antique hobby is any less today than it was 15 or 20 years ago, when (in my view) it seemed to hit it's peak. It's as much fun to ride down the street in a Chevrolet 490 today as it was 50 years ago. It's as rewarding today to install a new clutch in a Terraplane as it was 30 years ago. And it as interesting to watch a Doble Steamer being fired up and run today as it was when we were kids.<P>But all of those are scenes that appear to me to be rapidly declining in frequency and (especially) visibility. <I>AND IT IS KILLING THE INTEREST OF THE YOUNGER GENERATION IN THE ANTIQUE FIELD!</I><P>How many times have people complained that this is becomming a "rich man's hobby" on this forum? Where does that perspective come from? How is it that the hot-rodders of this world seam to have such deeper pockets than the restorers and collectors, <I>and at the same time</I> exist in such obviously higher numbers?<P>The answer to that is (I think) very obvious. Authentic, older cars are rapidly disappearing from the streets. The only venues the general populace gains exposure to them is often national or local news coverage of high end events (like a concours or <I>The Great Race</I>), or the occasional museum visit. The guy down the street with the '35 Chevy who brings it out for weekend rides has all but disappeared from the landscape. <P>This is the point I've been trying to make for a long time here. This is what the "Agoraphobia" thread was all about. When the '35 Chevy doesn't come out of the garage any more, it ceases to exist. When none of them come out any more, we cease to exist.<P>If enough 16 year olds see Durants running up and down the street once and a while, one of them will want one. A few will have the money to buy one. And one more Durant is saved.<P><I>Don't buy more cars, make more owners!<P><B>Be visible or die!</I></B>

[ex98thdrill]

You can't get kids to take an interest in an American car, let alone a Durant. A year ago I had my step son lined up with a '76 Olds Cutlass 'S' that was black, fully loaded with a 455 engine in it with 30,000 miles on it with no rust for $2,000, and what did he want? A Honda civic. I had an '84 Camaro Z-28 with T-tops, with 22,000 miles on it for the same price, and the kid didn't want that either. I know I'm 34 years old, my stepson is 17. When I was 17, if you'd have offered either one of those two muscle cars, I wouldn't have thought twice about getting either one of them. The only reason I didn't get those two cars is because I feel for the money I would've paid, I could've had my '79 'Lil Red Express looking real nice. Needless to say my step son is driving a '94 Corsica that has over 100,000 miles on it, that he paid more for than what he could've had either car for, and I've washed my hands with it. Hopefully someday he'll learn. As for a Durant? I wouldn't know one unless you ran over me with it. If I had the money and had to pick between a '70 Chevelle SS, '55 Bel-Air, '72 Chevy pickup, '55 Thunderbird, '66 Mustang, '65 Barracuda, '49 Studebaker, or a Durant? No offense, but I wouldn't want the Durant. But I'd take a Durant over a Honda Civic any day of the week. I'm not promoting street rod building, but I can understand the value of spending $30,000 to have a car that's old and awkward to drive, or having a car tha's old and comfortable to drive. As much as I hate playing the Devil's advocate, this all boils down to dollars and sense. Wether you like street rodders or not, they are our allies when it comes to keeping the environmentalists from outlawing our cars, because although their cars are different, their interests are the same. Times, generations and tastes change.

[1937hd45]

The horse is dead, quit beating it!

[R W Burgess]

Evening Pat, Should've got that 17 year old to listen to one of those big blocks with a set of flowmasters on it. That generally gets their attention. A little rubber left on the road every now and then don't hurt either, as long as you don't pick up the local cops attention in the process. Wayne

[Dave@Moon]

Try <I>not</I> standing on it's neck and it <I>could</I> get back up! <P>Or has everyone given up on the future of antique cars?

[rocketraider]

Wayne, it's a tribal thing with 17 yr olds and rice-rockets. All their buddies have them or a mini-truck and to fit in, they have to have one too. (Fitting in is paramount to a teenager.) They'd rather listen to a 4-cylinder screaming at 10000 rpm thru a tailpipe you can stick your fist in than a big rumbly American V8. They say, "Dude, listen to that power!" I say, "Dude, it sounds like a weedeater on crack."<P>Reminds me of the night two of them showed up at our local hotrodder hangout with some mutant Honda and challenged us- "$500 says we can take anything you got on this lot".<P>They didn't see the orange 71 Challenger lurking over in the corner in the dark...<P>When it fired up, the driver turned to his navigator and mouthpiece and said, "what have you got me into!"<P>Haven't seen 'em since.

[Ron Green]

Sorry to see the Durant chopped up. Went to the Amphicar nationals a few weeks ago and the town had a big car show along with the prop cars. I would say at least 50% of the cars had a least one major modification. They had six or eight 55, 56 or 57 Chevy's with only one having the correct engine. Most were tubbed.<P>Looking though one of my car magazines the other night and I saw a ad by a street rodder advertising coffee tables made out of a 39 Buick crank, rods and pistons that you look though (down) the glass to see the top of the pistons, etc. He welds everything together including other semi rare engine parts. Seems he makes more money making coffee tables then selling the parts outright.

[1937hd45]

Only an outright fool would bet money on a '71 Challenger put up against a built right rice rocket! Mazda rotarys eat Corvettes on a regular basis.

[Guest]

C'mon..guys...be honest...how many of us...would have wasted our time trying to make old cars run...if WE had Britney Spears dance videos..when we were kids....!<P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, AZ

[ex98thdrill]

Good morning Wayne!! I like the old stuff, and I like the good old all American V8 with a set of dual exhausts, but I hate those old shell casings running around with the modified chainsaw engines in them. Most of them have got more power in the dash than they do under the hood. To me, my symphony is that V8 with duals just purring. I'm not trying to shun the antiques, but some people have failed to realize that the muscle cars are now antiques too. As for the local law enforcement group, I told you once before that was my livelihood before I get sent across the big pond didn't I?

[rocketraider]

The Challenger in question is barely street legal and turns consistent 6.20 1/8 miles. I never said it was stock. <P>The Honda, on the other hand, demonstrated its prowess at Piedmont Dragway a few weeks later when the kid didn't know I was there watching, and the absolute best it could do was 7.60. Was I an outright fool to put my Franklin on the Challenger?<P>And by the way- there's a <P><B>HELL</B> of a lot of difference between a Mazda twin-turbo RX7 and a Honda full of bolt-on aftermarket stuff. Let's compare apples to apples.

[1937hd45]

Sorry, I thought the Challenger was a restored original with the 01 painted on both doors.

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

That was a Charger.

[Guest]

Morning to you(day late)Pat, You think the rice burners are bad, think how I felt yesterday at the "Big day at the amusement part with my kids" when all I saw was kids. I looked down at myself thinking " no tattoo's, no earrings, no punched holes in body, no hair coloring, no pants hung down to ankles, my toenails weren't painted(hey, I had shoes on),geeze. I felt like "redneck" fish out of water, and I'll bet that's how those kids would have felt at one of our "old foggy people car shows". That's one advantage Hot rodders have over Antiquers, a little more pizzaze and excitement. That's the reason they're getting a few more young people than us---food for thought. wayne

[Dave@Moon]

Yes, but they'll probably never know the excitement of wondering whether or not they're going to get home the same way they left the house!

[Guest]

More on this business of cutting up classics:<P>The monthly magazine of the CadillacLaSalle Club came in the mail yesterday. I quote from the classifieds, parts for sale:<P>"'31 Cad 370A V-12. Compl. eng, starter, manifolds, carbs, etc. Trans, rear end, brake booster, 6 wire wheels, some guages and lots of other stuff. No body or trim parts. All left over from building resto-rod- I'm a bad boy! $6,000 takes it all. Bring truck and cash, will help load."

[1937hd45]

Just wanted to get in here first and state that some restorer will complain that the six grand is too much money for that pile.

[Guest c.johnson]

There are some old cars that seem they would make awkward hotrods, the Durant would be one of them. <P>I also heard about a rodded '28 Oakland from the POCI publication of Smoke Signals. The Oakland had a new modified V8, CD Player, chrome everwhere, ... you get the picture. The question was asked how much a restored Oakland would be compared to the modified - I don't think they got an answer. But of course the answer is always the same... whatever you can get out of it. <P>Anyway, it hit close to home maybe the garage at least), and pulled a few of my heart strings.<P>cj

[ex98thdrill]

It's my evening now Wayne, but it's still always good to hear from you. When you talk about that kind of stuff, you then think that maybe some of the younger generation have suffered the aftershock of listening to too much RAP music, at too high of a decible, at a range too close. BUT, on the other hand, you look at it like when we were kids, most of our parents didn't like our taste in clothing, music and cars, and now that we're that age, we don't like what the kids are doing now. Back then, we had all the answers, now as adults, these kids have all the answers. In 20 years, the kids will be doing something that today's kids don't like so I guess we can all attribute it as a part of evolution..... like the automobile. After having air conditioning, cruise control, better sound deadening interiors, better suspentions, fingertip controls, power locks, power windows, and CD players that sound like your sitting in front of the person making the music, can you really fault someone for not wanting all of those comforts? To go with mechanical brakes, vacuum wipers, AM radios, noisy, rough riding, vibrating machines, it is hard to justify spending $30,000+ for that. I still like the antiques, and to be honest with you, it took more of a man to handle those old cars back then as daily transportation, and it takes more of a craftsman to restore one. But you can't always stick to tradition either. If a person is that stuck with history, then they can tear the plumbing, wiring and telephones out of their homes (the internet too) so that it matches the period of their automobile. I love it when you hear people talk about "that's not how that came from the factory" yet if you want to hold things right to the letter of the law, then the car shouldn't be there at the show because very few AACA eligible show cars were ever sold new with unleaded gas in the gas tank, with silicon brake fluid, and non abestos brakes now were they?

[Guest]

Yeah...talk about the wierd ways of the younger generation...<P>I agree....who remembers how our silly antics disgusted OUR parents in THEIR day...!<P>I remember how disappointed...well..actually..revolted my parents were with me...(this was the summer of '55) when I came home with this stupid ugly old car ..and when they found out that I had paid hard earned TWENTY FIVE BUCKS for it...and ...it needed a battery....they seriously considered having me see a psychatrist. Especially, when they had offered to buy me a really NICE modern car...like a two or three year old Chevrolet or Plymouth... And they were right...in those days, it was socially undesirable to be seen in something like what I came home with...if you WERE able to talk a girl into going out with you in it...you'd usually find that the restaurant you wanted to take her to...would insist that you park out in back, where their regular customers couldn't see it to be offended by "that old thing".<P>Sadly...my parents are long gone. But that "disgrace" I came home with..for twenty five bucks....now has new battery....and IS STILL IN MY GARAGE (when I am not out on the road with it tearing up the place). Oh...the car... a '38 Packard V-12 Formal Sedan...)<P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, AZ

[Guest]

Oh...I forgot to mention...as an example of how each generation disappoints its elders......the Packard Twelve...has beautiful inlaid rose-wood door mouldings, and vanity cases. While the car was pretty near "mint" when I got it in '55...the clear lacqueer had started to haze over and crack on those elegant and aristocratic window frame mouldings. My dad was furious with me when he saw me carefully spraying and "color sanding" new clear lacqueer to duplicate the original factory finish..."What in hell is the matter with you"...he asked....explaining, that if I would just paint them with a dark colored enamel...the car would look more "modern"......<P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, AZ

[ex98thdrill]

Pete,<BR> What can I say. My parents were never critical of my first car because I grew up around it, and the nut didn't fall too far from the tree. A Packard?? WOW!! Boy when I hear my father talk about some of the iron that he let go just to get rid of it. At least I listened to him, I still have my first car. As strange a choice as it may have seemed back then, looking ahead you made a very wise move. Do you think these kids with the Japanese tin will have the same luck?

[R W Burgess]

ex98thdrill, Lets try not to bring up my past. I'm trying to forget that time of my life, and so is my mother, poor woman. Wayne

[Dave@Moon]

....like the automobile. After having <I>automatic</I> transmission, self-starter, <I>wind up</I> windows, door locks (or even doors for that matter), electric wipers, turn signals, and engines that'd lap the track at Indy faster than it was meant to be lapped, can you really fault someone for (wanting) all those comforts? To go with 2 wheel brakes, <I>no</I> radio, open-aired, high-wheeled, buggy-springed machines, it's hard to justify spending $2000 for that.<P>OOOOPS! I thought it was 1950 for a second there. What I meant to say was:<P><B>"..... like the automobile. After having air conditioning, cruise control, better sound deadening interiors, better suspentions, fingertip controls, power locks, power windows, and CD players that sound like your sitting in front of the person making the music, can you really fault someone for not wanting all of those comforts? To go with mechanical brakes, vacuum wipers, AM radios, noisy, rough riding, vibrating machines, it is hard to justify spending $30,000+ for that." </B> --ex98thdrill<P> <P>Kinda' makes ya wonder how the hobby got started in the first place, don't it? <P>[ 08-06-2002: Message edited by: Dave@Moon ]<p>[ 08-06-2002: Message edited by: Dave@Moon ]

[Dave@Moon]

There's one more bubble in this thread that needs popping. I'm a former state environmental inspector. I've been a professional environmentalist all my adult life. I worked with many hundreds of other environmentalists over two decades.<P><B>I've never met one real environmentalist who was in any way opposed to the car hobby. Period.</B><P>Most <I>real</I> environmentalists are intriguied and enthusiatic about the car hobby, though most can't afford to have a car of their own. This is because they're largely the type of people who approach life from a preservationist perspective. They also tend to be big supporters of historic building restoration (the real kind) and other activities that preserve or relate to the past. <P>The "environmentalists" that the hobby needs to be protected from are engineers and lobbyists who work for the oil companies and other polluting industries. They use trumped up old car emissions data to excuse low-cost (to them) programs to "clean" the air without having to actually do anything about what's coming out of their stacks. These "environmentalists" have the support of essentially all conservative, pro-business politicians, and therefore can hold far more sway with what they want than any real environmentalist ever could. They hold this sway largely because people refuse to see through the ruse. <P>It's a much less complicated world when Rush Limbaugh is always right. <p>[ 08-06-2002: Message edited by: Dave@Moon ]

[Guest]

Here in mid Michigan the Durants and Stars are not uncommon. Many Durants, when available, can be had for $7-8,000, in running order. I recently bid on a "26 Star, that sold for $6800.00 A Durant is a car that you can spend $8-10K restoring and still have a $10,000 car, on a good day. Recently a '26 Star was rodded, and the guy wanted $5K for the engine and chassis. I will bet he is in excess of $20K in the car to rod it. Just a thought.

[Guest]

i'm still not sure what y'all r calling a hot rod and NOt a hot rod???/<BR>My 56 Packard has Honda power brake boosterand cyl , toyota air-conditioning with the dealer installed Mark-IV Evap, Kraco AM/FM/CB stereo (circa 1975) and a Sunpro water temp gauge (where the clovk used to be), Tachometer, oil pressure gauge and 235-75 R 15 tires. Other than that its bone stock. DOES that make it a Hot Rod???

[Guest]

i almost forgot, 'Turbo performance' mufflers too.

[Guest]

PackardV8 ~ I for one would NOT call that a hot rod. I would call that a mildly mechanically modified production car [it goes in an AACA production class]. If entered for judging it would lose points for the modifications, but would not be disqualified.<P>If those modifications make it a hot rod, then my '14 Buick with the electric fuel pump, Carter BB1 carb, early '40s Buick ignition and a few other goodies is a hot rod. There are many other brass era cars out there with similar and even greater mechanical modifications. We use them for touring and not show. They are NOT hot rods. <P>I don't really know whether this helps clarify the issue or just adds to the confusion. ~ hvs

[R W Burgess]

hvs, Howard, How would that work,as in disqualfied. Would you have to remove the car off the show field. What would cause a car to have to be removed? Wayne <p>[ 08-07-2002: Message edited by: R WBurgess ]