Pontiac GTO Info needed

[Guest Chimmel]

I am a student at Bettendorf High School and we are doing a project over antique cars. I am doing the Pontiac GTO and i need a lot of information on it. So it would be very helpful if someone can comment back with information.

[alsancle]

Google "Pontiac GTO" and you will find lots and lots of info. Considered the first "Muscle Car" and a huge favorite of many.

[joe_padavano]

I'm still having a problem wrapping my head around the concept of a GTO as an "antique car"... :eek:

[TerryB]

How about 1988 model cars as antiques?? That is really scary!

Terry

[Terry Bond]

Chimmel-you came to a good spot for help with your project. I love to polish the brass on early cars, but I also love my 1967 GTO. We see a lot of GTOs at our events and that 1967 here in the garage is one of my favorites. I grew up with this stuff and was graduating from High School in 1965 when the GTO was becoming the top dog on cruise night in my home town. There were faster cars out there for sure but few with the charisma the GTO had. It's called "The legend" for good reason and is often considered the car that really began the 60's muscle car era. That idea will often stimulate a lot of debate, but few will not admit it's popularly recognized that way. As was mentioned, there is a lot of info and history on the internet for you to choose from, but it might be interesting to get some quotes from some of us GTO guys to supplement your work. You might also want to try one of my favorite GTO discussion forums -

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/

If you are going to give a verbal or powerpoint presentation of your project i'd also recommend a little background theme music be included -

It all began in 1964 of course, when some engineers at Pontiac stuffed the 389 into the Pontiac LeMans package to develop a car that would appeal to a younger market. The "Legend" was born when a couple of car mags did some road testing and reported on the hottest car you could by at the time. Everyone had to have one! i think years later we learned that a 421 had been stuffed into the test car for extra measure. But, the gates were opened and by 1965, it was one hot ride in many ways. Style-wise it was the best GM had on offer, and when equipped with Rally Wheels, Red-Line Tires, and a Tri-Power, it was every kids dream-car. By 1966 it was it's own brand of car, no longer just an option on the Tempest package. Sometime later in 1966, some GM big-wigs began getting worried about the emphasis on speed and muscle and decided to kill the Tri-Power, but still the GTO was an awesome package. By 67, it was retooled and made sleeker, and the new 400 Cubic inch engine was actually an improvement performance-wise. The High Output version with Ram Air was one honkin monster! it was completely restyled in 1968 but in my opinion, the great years came to an end. I love them but I think the 64-67 cars were the best. Sure, the later "Judge" version was a screamer performance-wise, and some of the last real GTOs with the big-block engines were brutes, but by then they were bogged down with smog equipment, and were loosing their punch and competitive edge to other factory muscle. At the end, it was just a re-badged version the Chevy Nova. For years, it was rumored that the GTO would return, and we waited patiently. 2004 came and went, and then, GM brought out something they called the GTO - a foreign made something that folks thought performed quite well, but it didn't even have a hood scoop! I've heard many car guys, even some GM dealers and at least one former engineer/executive I know who said that if Pontiac did to the GTO what Ford did in bringing back the Mustang, Pontiacs would still be around.

Well, enough of my own warped version of GTO history - do the research and do a great job and please share the results with us old-timers who like to stand when the anthem is played - "Little GTO, you're really looking good, three duces and a four-speed, and a 389..."

Tried to attach a photo of my 67 but am having some difficulty with the site presently Will try to put one up later, or send me a PM for one if you'd like it.

Keep in touch!

[Guest Chimmel]

I just want to thank all of you for commenting on my blog. You guys took time out of your day to comment on my forum. Thank you guys for all the facts that you gave me, they really helped with my presentation.

[Guest]

Chimmel-you came to a good spot for help with your project. I love to polish the brass on early cars, but I also love my 1967 GTO. We see a lot of GTOs at our events and that 1967 here in the garage is one of my favorites. I grew up with this stuff and was graduating from High School in 1965 when the GTO was becoming the top dog on cruise night in my home town. There were faster cars out there for sure but few with the charisma the GTO had. It's called "The legend" for good reason and is often considered the car that really began the 60's muscle car era. That idea will often stimulate a lot of debate, but few will not admit it's popularly recognized that way. As was mentioned, there is a lot of info and history on the internet for you to choose from, but it might be interesting to get some quotes from some of us GTO guys to supplement your work. You might also want to try one of my favorite GTO discussion forums -

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/

If you are going to give a verbal or powerpoint presentation of your project i'd also recommend a little background theme music be included -

It all began in 1964 of course, when some engineers at Pontiac stuffed the 389 into the Pontiac LeMans package to develop a car that would appeal to a younger market. The "Legend" was born when a couple of car mags did some road testing and reported on the hottest car you could by at the time. Everyone had to have one! i think years later we learned that a 421 had been stuffed into the test car for extra measure. But, the gates were opened and by 1965, it was one hot ride in many ways. Style-wise it was the best GM had on offer, and when equipped with Rally Wheels, Red-Line Tires, and a Tri-Power, it was every kids dream-car. By 1966 it was it's own brand of car, no longer just an option on the Tempest package. Sometime later in 1966, some GM big-wigs began getting worried about the emphasis on speed and muscle and decided to kill the Tri-Power, but still the GTO was an awesome package. By 67, it was retooled and made sleeker, and the new 400 Cubic inch engine was actually an improvement performance-wise. The High Output version with Ram Air was one honkin monster! it was completely restyled in 1968 but in my opinion, the great years came to an end. I love them but I think the 64-67 cars were the best. Sure, the later "Judge" version was a screamer performance-wise, and some of the last real GTOs with the big-block engines were brutes, but by then they were bogged down with smog equipment, and were loosing their punch and competitive edge to other factory muscle. At the end, it was just a re-badged version the Chevy Nova. For years, it was rumored that the GTO would return, and we waited patiently. 2004 came and went, and then, GM brought out something they called the GTO - a foreign made something that folks thought performed quite well, but it didn't even have a hood scoop! I've heard many car guys, even some GM dealers and at least one former engineer/executive I know who said that if Pontiac did to the GTO what Ford did in bringing back the Mustang, Pontiacs would still be around.

Well, enough of my own warped version of GTO history - do the research and do a great job and please share the results with us old-timers who like to stand when the anthem is played - "Little GTO, you're really looking good, three duces and a four-speed, and a 389..."

Tried to attach a photo of my 67 but am having some difficulty with the site presently Will try to put one up later, or send me a PM for one if you'd like it.

Keep in touch!

Pontiac GTO was a answer to the January 1963 GM ban on factory participation (cars or parts) in racing. Pontiac had a huge domination in drag racing and stock car racing from 1957 to 1962. This domination and the introduction of the Pontiac Tempest helped put Pontiac in the #3 sales spot. Suddenly after the ban on racing, Pontiac would not have a stage to help sell it's products. Up to that point Pontiac's image was geared to selling performance. What this ban did was force Pontiac to take it's products off the track and put some of it on the street. The Car and Driver road test against a phantom Ferrari GTO was a tool to get the performance word out. Back in 1959 Pontiac General Manager Bunkie Knudsen asked Pontiac's add agency's account executive Jim Wangers to find and set up a dealership who was willing to sell Pontiac performance. Wangers found Royal Pontiac to be a willing participant. Royal Pontiac did two things. One, they fielded their own drag race cars and drivers ( I think out of all the different dealers Royal was the first to have a direct connect connection to Pontiac engineering) and two, Royal prepped almost all of Pontiac's press fleet. The Royal prepped 1964 Car and driver car was a ringer as said before it was equipped with a H-0 421 with the super prepped Bobcat treatment. As just a FYI, all the traditional Pontiac V-8's from 1955's 287 to the 455 are what is known as a medium size block, there are no big or small blocks. A interesting note here is all the engines from 287 to 455 use the same dimension connecting rod @ at 6.625". A Pontiac 350 (really a 355) and a Pontiac 455 (really a 456) look identical and only a trained eye will know cylinder head casting numbers and that sometimes can be deceiving.....I put 400 Pontiac heads on my 455 to lower the compression for today's pump gas. All 1964 and 65 Pontiac GTO's body style are LeMans and never a Tempest unlike Olds 442 which could be had on a F-85 or a Cutlass. The car was restyled and had a engineering chassis update from 1968-1973. The track was widened and the front part of the frame was widened ( making ram Air 111 and Ram Air 1V factory exhaust headers easier to install. Also the wheelbase was reduced from 115" to 112" making the car a much better handler on the road course plus the wheel well openings were huge allowing Pontiac to offer the Rally2 wheel in seven inch widths.

Pontiac had been using multiple carburetion since 1956 as 2X4's and Tri-Power from 1957. It's no secret that Pontiac's Bunkie Knudsen, Pete Estes and John Delorean had issues with Ed Cole.

Cole, who was responsible for the OHV Cadillac and the Chevy small block ( in which Cole borrowed the Pontiac V-8's valvetrain ), the Corvette and the Corvair was in 1966 Executive Vice President and in 1967 President of GM. It was Cole's edict that banned Pontiac's multiple carburetion for 1967, and banned Oldsmoblie as well...You could buy a 1966 442 with Tri-Power, prior to that the Olds J-2 as it was called was a 1957 and 1958 Olds option. All in stating that it was for down playing high performance attention. The only catch was Ed Cole's beloved 427 Vette could have Tri Power and Cole's beloved Corvair could have multiple carburetion too. Talk about politic's!

This forced Pontiac to increase displacement of the 389 to 400 and the 421 to 428 for 1967 and to change the 326 to 350 in 1968. The cylinder heads valve angle was also changed to allow for larger valves and better flow to make up for the loss of Tri-Power.

GTO's and Catalina's were a formidable in street racing, yes there were cars that had more horsepower, but they were very few and far between and on the street those cars were too high strung and were constantly falling out of tune and when they were running good they had traction problems ( no slicks on the street ).

My first street race was in my 59 389 Tri-Power Catalina with a 4 speed Hydro.,( with slicks a high 13 second car @ 102mph ) against my friends new 1967 Hemi Charger with 2X4's and a four speed. I hole shot that Charger by 3 1/2 lengths and never looked back and if I could I would have never seen him......as my passenger said our friends car had gone up in smoke so bad you couldn't see him.

Edited November 29, 2013 by helfen (see edit history)

[Guest]

Another little tid-bit about the GTO. Originally Delorean had the car to be equipped with radial tires and disc brakes. Kelsey-Hayes had done all the tooling for the disc brakes so there was no cost to Pontiac. In a interview Delorean said Ed Cole killed both proposals! Politics!

The tiger theme actually started before the GTO. It started in the 1962 sales brochure saying for all you TIGERS out there a four speed stick shift is available. first applied to a car on the 1963 Tempest and LeMans model:

http://c590298.r98.cf2.rackcdn.com/YCD2_020.JPG

The GTO's nickname was originally the GTO TIGER;

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/general/images/pontiac-gto-ads-1965a.jpg

Jim Wangers next to the re-creation GTO Tiger race car;

http://kotv.images.worldnow.com/images/12820604_SA.jpg

Jim did more to bolster Pontiac's image than anyone period. Jim is considered not the father of the GTO, but certainly the Godfather of the GTO. A very generous and great Pontiac car guy to all of us Pontiac gearheads.

After the corporation banned the Tiger theme Pontiac became the GREAT ONE and Yes the 14th floor banned the Tiger theme and all advertising which showed aggressive driving and tire smoking burnouts :

http://www.autotraderclassics.com/images/a/cms/images/articles/guides/1964_pontiac_gto/169568.jpg

http://img1.imagesbn.com/p/9780760335154_p0_v4_s260x420.JPG

http://fineartamerica.com/images-medium-5/1-1968-pontiac-gto-digital-repro-depot.jpg

Don't know anything about the legend moniker except the pupublication of the GTO AA's magazine " The legend "

Edited November 29, 2013 by helfen (see edit history)

[Guest]

Another Tid-bit about Pontiac. Pontiac was the first car maker to use and advertise performance products on a factory car or factory equipped car with a performance aftermarket item. Pontiac executives and Jim Wangers finally got permission ( 1961 or 62 ) from General Motors corp to sell Pontiac's with Hurst M/T Shifters as a adjunct to selling more cars. George Hurst was a friend of Wangers and bringing Hurst together with Pontiac opened the door to many opportunities not only for Pontiac but for the rest of the corporation. Before this all happened it was against corporate policy. Think of it, no dual gate shifters, No Hurst/Oldsmobile 442's. And not just the Hurst products, no BOSE stereo's etc. The list goes on and also spilled to other car companies...even imports.

1962 Pontiac Grand Prix with factory installed Hurst shifter;

http://www.autotraderclassics.com/images/a/cms/images/articles/features/dare_to_be_different_1964_pontiac_grand_prix/200202.jpg

1967 GTO with factory installed Hurst dual gate A/T shifter;

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/pontiac-gto/images/pontiac-gto-ads-1967b.jpg

Edited November 29, 2013 by helfen (see edit history)

[Kimo]

I had a 1968 GTO - I bought it new back in the day. It had an 8-track cassette player in the dash. I don't know if you know what an 8-track is, but think of an old cassette player, then increase the size of the cassette by about 10 times and that is what an 8-track cassette was. It was the first practical tape player for a car. I remember blasting at top volume a Steppenwolf tape over and over again that included Born to Be Wild and God Damn the Pusher Man. My other favorite was an Iron Butterfly tape that included In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida - another real classic of those earliest heavy metal tunes that you had to play at high volume as you cruised down the road in your 'Goat' as we called GTOs back then.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Kimo (see edit history)

[Guest]

I had a 1968 GTO - I bought it new back in the day. It had an 8-track cassette player in the dash. I don't know if you know what an 8-track is, but think of an old cassette player, then increase the size of the cassette by about 10 times and that is what an 8-track cassette was. It was the first practical tape player for a car. I remember blasting at top volume a Steppenwolf tape over and over again that included Born to Be Wild and God Damn the Pusher Man. My other favorite was an Iron Butterfly tape that included In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida - another real classic of those earliest heavy metal tunes that you had to play at high volume as you cruised down the road in your 'Goat' as we called GTOs back then.

Sorry Guy, the first practical tape players used were the "Four Track" tape players. I still have one of my old Craig four track players...and no tapes to play in it!

[Kimo]

When were 4-track players around? Were they generally available as original equipment on cars like 8-tracks?

[Guest]

When were 4-track players around? Were they generally available as original equipment on cars like 8-tracks?

I got mine in 1967. Four track tape for stereo was first used in 1954 on 7 1/4 real to real tape machines, but not used for car players. The first four track player was built by Muntz starting in 1962. The limitation to the four track is available audio space for the size of cartridge and that's why eight track was developed later in 1964 even though they didn't become used in mass until 1967. Remember you could buy 4 track and eight track tapes in the same time period. Still more information (audio) and even smaller cartridges were preferred which led to cassette tapes. Because four track players use 1/4 inch width tape just like eight tracks there is less sound or material per given length of tape which translates into four track tape players have better sound quality than eight track players, and eight track players have better sound quality than cassettes. That is also why in a home stereo with a four track 7 1/4' real to real machine produces better quality sound than the most expensive home stereo cassette machine.

I cant remember of any new car that came with a Muntz four track, but I do know you could order a eight track machine on a 67 Pontiac.

[Kimo]

I think we may both be correct. I ordered my 1968 Pontiac GTO with a an 8-track from the factory. The dealer was touting them as the epitomy of high tech for the car.

[john2dameron]

When did radial tires become available? I ordered a '68 Chrysler 300 and tire wear was so poor that I switched to radials to improve the tire life and it also greatly increased the handling.

[Guest]

First patented in 1915, first on a passenger car by Michelin in 1946, a truck tire by 1952. Not widely used by auto industry until the late 60's.