Bill Stoneberg Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 After almost 100,000 mile and just when I had the car running good and shifting good, something let go in the engine while driving on the freeway.A horrible clatter ensued, and my car looked like a mosquito fogger.Dont know what it is yet, but the engine is coming out.Question, can the engine come out without taking the grill assembly off ? Is there enough room to do that ?Also, how hard is it to get to the upper transmission bolts without a lift ?Thanks all…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric's.64.Superwildcat Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Before pulling the engine you might want to check the 'easy' things first such as a failed water pump. A sudden release of coolant on a hot manifold might account for the fogging. When I say 'easy' I simply mean in relation to removing the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I agree with Eric. Do some troubleshooting before making costly (time and money) decisions. Tom Mooney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted "Wildcat65" Nagel Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I'm pulling the engine in my 65 - I will be working with grill intact, will try to get everything done on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lapham3 Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Sorry to hear, Bill. Yes, the engine can come out after the radiator/fan come off and the trans can be unbolted without a lift-of course, you have to get underneath for some of that and exhaust-mounts,ect. I figure you know the origin of the 'cloud' as to coolant or oil. If 100k original, probably has engine needs, but I'd also troubleshoot as much as possible before pulling-good luck-Dan Mpls. Mn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 The heads are easy to pull. Do a compression check and take the head off the suspicious side.You can drop the pan by lifting the engine 4 or 5 inches. Be sure to remove the fan shroud and you'll have to use a 1/4" drive socket set to remove the four pan bolts above the crossmember.Those two steps will get you inside so you know what happened.The short distance between the firewall and the crossmember makes pulling the engine and tranny together tight, but you can do it. Raise the car and lift from the front of the engine the assembly will be almost verticle when it comes out.When my piston disintegrated the rod didn't jam. It just rattled around in the bore like a little ball pein hammer and the car kept running. I thought it was a bent push rod; it sounded so innocent.Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted November 9, 2013 Author Share Posted November 9, 2013 I have every intention of troubleshooting first. Working on the suspect head now. Its not coolant, I wish it was that easy.I am thinking I dropped a valve or something worse. When I crank it for doing a compression check it makes a horrible noise.More later on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted November 9, 2013 Author Share Posted November 9, 2013 Now I am back from my morning Buick meeting and pulling the plugs from the other side. The side I thought was OK...This is never a good sign when a plug looks like the one on the right below. Looks like something came out and abused it badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted November 9, 2013 Author Share Posted November 9, 2013 Compression, what is compression…From the front on the passenger side150 lbs145 lbs10 lbs150 lbsAs was said about Marie Antoinette "Off with the head". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted November 10, 2013 Author Share Posted November 10, 2013 I am surprised I have any compression at all I only have 1/2 of one piston. A valve looks like it broke and took every thing else with it.Pictures soon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrlforfun Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 OK Bill: After rebuilding several 425's I have come to the conclusion that a quality rebuild with quality parts is really the only way to go. That would be .30 over and a parts list from one of the Buick parts vendors. The 425 was never that great to begin with and now it's equal with the 401's of 64, 65 and 66 vintage in the fact that Father Time has cast his giant shadow on the whole Magilla. The good news? If you wind up doing a quality rebuild you can really enjoy your 4747 for a long time. There ain't nothin' like a Nailhead that's hitting on all 8 with 150 pounds in every cylinder! Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
63 Rivi Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 Sorry to hear that Bill. Did it damage the cylinder wall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted November 11, 2013 Author Share Posted November 11, 2013 I Dont know if it damaged the wall as the piston is all the way up at the moment and I couldn't find a socket to turn the engine. I am hoping its not too bad.But considering it looks like grenade was dropped in the cylinder, I am not holding out hope.The other 3 look real good though.Here is a picture of what I found when I pulled the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob J Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 Ouch, yep, looks like a valve let go, and it was playing frog in a blender. Hopefully your block is not damaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DualQuadDave Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Is the rod still attached to the piston or did it yank the pin out the bottom? You might have gotten lucky, but you need to have that block fluxed/sonic checked if their are no holes in it. If it has a hole, it will need a sleeve. Is your car matching numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Make sure, whatever path your repair takes, that you thoroughly clean out the intake manifold for possible metal debris. When a piston is pumping metal around it can get into places which at first thought dont seem very likely. You dont want to "process" any of that piston thru your newly repaired engine. Tom Mooney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted November 12, 2013 Author Share Posted November 12, 2013 Matching numbers, is there such a thing on the Riviera's ? I have the original motor in it. I have not gotten far enough into this to tell if the rod is still attached. I think so as I did a compression test and it registered on the guage.Tom, thatnks for the advice on the intake, I will make sure I check that. That would suck (literally) to get metal into a rebuild engine.I cant wait to pull the pan and see what the part of the intake valve looks like and how much more stuff is in the pan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DualQuadDave Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 I ask about the matching numbers because if that is the case, I would rebuild that motor to keep it original. If it's a replacement, I would build/buy another motor. Hopefully the rod is still attached to the piston. If it is, you have a good chance of saving that block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted December 15, 2013 Author Share Posted December 15, 2013 Got the motor out today and on the stand. Then pulled the pan. I got a baggie full of metal that looked like piston, rings and other assorted parts. Oil filter screen is full of metal shavings. Like someone said up above it looked a frog in a blender. This will be a fun one to pull apart and diagnose.Engine was actually pretty easy to pull, a lot easier and lighter then the Straight 8's I am used to in my other cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted December 16, 2013 Author Share Posted December 16, 2013 Check out the worst of 3 pistons This is the one where the valve dropped into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnulfo de l.a. Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Check out the worst of 3 pistons This is the one where the valve dropped into. [ATTACH=CONFIG]227133[/ATTACH]could a timing chain failure been the cause of the valve tearing up that piston? What would cause a valve to just let go? I have a numbers matching 65 rivi gs and i shudder at the thought of the block being ruined beyond repair.arnulfo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john hanson Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 If by chance your block is still good I have some new standard pistons for a 425 John Hanson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted December 16, 2013 Author Share Posted December 16, 2013 (edited) could a timing chain failure been the cause of the valve tearing up that piston? What would cause a valve to just let go?Adnulfo, The valve stem broke in half right above the valve, dropping it into the combustion chamber. There it acted like a large ball bearing in a dishwasher full of glass. It broke at least 3 pistons and I dont trust any of the rest and it broke the bottom of some cylinders. I still had compression and I am hoping I dont have to have them sleeved. Will know more after I take it to the machine shop.John, I will keep you in mind for the pistons as I dont know what I will need yet. I would perfer not to go oversized if I can avoid it.Good news is that the crank looked good, no scoring or scratches on the rod bearing surfaces. Going to pull the mains tonoght and look at them. Oil pump screen was full of metal particles though. I pulled a baggie of metal out of the bottom of the engine. Edited December 16, 2013 by Bill Stoneberg (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnulfo de l.a. Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Bill,the one valve that broke also got into thre other cylinders? Wow! Any idea how the debris from the one broken valve got into the other cylinders or is there a possibility that other valves failed? Trying to learn as much as i can about these beautiful old classics.gracias,arnulfo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted December 17, 2013 Author Share Posted December 17, 2013 So the valve broke, beat a hole through the piston dropped into the bottom end where it bounced off the crank and hitting pistons and breaking chunks off the bottom of the bores. At least 4 of the bores will need to be sleeved and I may just go ahead and do all of them to be safe. This way I can stay with stock pistons.. more to come after visiting machine shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrlforfun Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 (edited) OK Bill: You would know what pistons to get after the machine shop makes it's rough cut but, if the block is chewed up I would look for another core. Matching numbers is meaningless mythology and it ain't gonna get ya from a to b. BTW, Falcon Global's master kit of which I'm considering is about $1050. including shipping. I have checked with some Buick specialists and they offer much more bang for much more buck.....if you need more bang. Mitch Edited December 17, 2013 by lrlforfun (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnulfo de l.a. Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 So the valve broke, beat a hole through the piston dropped into the bottom end where it bounced off the crank and hitting pistons and breaking chunks off the bottom of the bores. At least 4 of the bores will need to be sleeved and I may just go ahead and do all of them to be safe. This way I can stay with stock pistons.. more to come after visiting machine shopThanks for the reply bill. I get it now. Hope all turns out well for you.arnulfo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted December 17, 2013 Author Share Posted December 17, 2013 Believe me I am on the hunt for a block...I also have a built 401 sitting in the garage, it was meant for another project but plans may change. We will see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DRM500RUBYZR1 Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Believe me I am on the hunt for a block...I also have a built 401 sitting in the garage, it was meant for another project but plans may change. We will seeYour 64 obviously knew about that " built 401", and knowing, simply could not help but damage itself in order to get that motor transplanted into itself.i would be very careful around that car, particularly if you don't give it what it so obviously wants.By the way,you don't happen to call her Christine do you?Either way, I would not suggest lending it to any kids for prom night.On a more serious note, sorry to hear of your valve with a death wish, and wish you the best.Of course, it had to happen right before the holidays.Save the money and scrap the other project and up the performance ante for the 64.Then if you still need a motor for another project, use the one at the machine shop.Best of luck, and have a great Holiday and a Happy New Year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted "Wildcat65" Nagel Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Hi Bill, I have a KW engine that ran OK but needed to be freshened up here in OHio .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lapham3 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Too bad about the damage, but stuff happens especially with aged engines. I've seen the most failures with pistons. I'm not a 'numbers' guy, so I'd use your other engine or another one to build-sleeving is an expensive proposition-good luck, Dan Mpls. Mn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Riviera Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 No sleeves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted December 19, 2013 Author Share Posted December 19, 2013 Why no sleeves ? What is wrong with that ? Pleas explain yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Riviera Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Why no sleeves ? What is wrong with that ? Pleas explain yourself.Over the years I have heard of many problems doing this . Dont know if it is the concept or workmanship or both . There are blocks available - that would be my choice . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 4 bufords Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Over the years I have heard of many problems doing this . Dont know if it is the concept or workmanship or both . There are blocks available - that would be my choice .wondering what kind of block you have ted,4 bufords Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 Much work has been done in the last months. I pulled apart the spare 401 and I am glad I did. It was built as a Chevy engine. Timing was set to the wrong front cylinder, it was supposedly balanced but pistons wer 12 grams apart and the cam bearings were in wrong.Now I have the block and lower end back and am going to start putting it together myself. It may take longer but this way if anything is messed up I only have myself to blame. More coming later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JanZverina Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Thanks for the update - pix please as you go along. Inquiring minds want to know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest clamshells Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Sure glad you steered away from sleeving the cylinders ;-) Matching #'s on a KW, LX or MZ yes but anything else doesn't matter, you made good a decision and a greater decision to check that pesky cam bearing. This story has all the making to produce a warm fuzzy as another Rivi lives on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted May 19, 2014 Author Share Posted May 19, 2014 It will live again, dont worry about that.Spent the day today cleaning threads and grinding flash off of castings. There are a lot of bolt holes on the block.Off to get the block hot tanked again and then get new cam bearings in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 Spent yesterday putting the crank back in and mowing the lawn. I was happy that all the clearances measured out withen specs.After church, going to see about putting pistons in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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