Agoraphobia in the hobby

[Guest]

Someone earlier on, in this thread...said the room was getting too "defensive"..well..how about...me getting OFFENSIVE.....!<P>C'mon..guys...the "chatter" is correct..who wants to BOTHER going out at 45 mph when you can do so at 80 mph....!<P>Let's face it...the ORDINARY old cars..the farther back in time you go...were ...well..they were good at what they were designed for...but they sure as HELL were NOT designed to "keep up with the big dogs".....!<P>( Which explains why...thank heaven...there WERE real classic cars...that were designed to be driven hard and fast...for those who DID want to go fast.....and thank heaven there are still guys like J446...who actually LIKE their cars for what they ARE......!)<P>P.S. Anyone want to know how much fun..or how hard...I drive my Packard Twelve...and I can E mail you a photo of its under-carriage...(kinda hard to tell what it is...with all the mud and brush stuck onto it....!)<P>Pete Hartmann

[Guest J446]

45MPH? 35 years ago one of my cars went 223.<BR>It still does. <BR> <p>[ 07-30-2002: Message edited by: J446 ]

[rocketraider]

J446, if you ever bring that car to VIR, please let me know. Would love to see it run.

[1937hd45]

J446, That looks like a shot taken at the Fall Festival at Lime Rock Park in Lakeville, Ct. Labor Day Weekend. If correct, do I get to take a lap in it? By the way is you J443 the white Murphy roadster that once called NYC home?

[Guest J446]

1937hd45<BR>I no longer drive my cars in anger(race against others) but I did drive that one up to Lime Rock that day. This year I'll be at Lime Rock on 9/1 with my Lola T70 (EX Donohue) which I'll also be driving up. On 8/17 I'll be at the SUNY Purchase AACA show with J446 which is the Queen Marie<BR>Frany Roadster.(Driving there as well) How can you take the time to restore something like this and not drive it?<P>Rocketraider<BR>Will do.<p>[ 07-30-2002: Message edited by: J446 ]

[Guest leadfoot]

Damn! My cars, new and old, can't run 225 mph combined.<P>I've seem agoraphobia in some antique car collectors. But I think it's an individual thing. Most of us like to get out in one of our antique cars several time each year. My car is 80 years old, but I still take it out for several local mini tours/events each year at its operating speed of 35 mph.<P>I think my reasons for having antique cars are common to most of us:<BR>1. Love of automotive history.<BR>2. Enjoy the people in the hobby.<BR>3. Like to tinker with old iron.<BR>4. Like the challenge of keeping old iron on the road.<BR>5. Have fun showing and explaining old iron to the public at shows.<BR>6. Enjoy the ancillary collectibles that surround the hobby. <P>And just keep in mind that this is a hobby, just like golf, or stamp collecting, or gardening.

[Guest]

i believe all of the Lightweights are accounted for in private collections??

[Guest]

The Chaparral cars are in a wing of the Midland Oil Museum in Midland, Texas.

[Guest]

thanks Bill.

[ply33]

There is not standards organization in the US to define "antique", "classic", "collectable" and other words as applied to cars. And the terms applied have changed over the years. They are still changing.<P>The Classic Car Club of America was formed some time ago to recognize a number of cars that they felt were deserved the term "classic". Since many (most?) people collecting cars recently do not share the CCCA's definition of classic, the CCCA has trademarked the term "Full Classic" to describe their list of recognized cars.<P>Also be aware that the terms that are in common use in one club may not be in use in another club. And if you go overseas you will find different definitions.<P>If you call the car what ever you like you will be in the majority. I would not sweat the terminology issue. Basically it is a lost cause.

[Guest]

I've been reading replies for several days and decided to throw in my .2 cents.<BR>Passion: "A boundless enthusiasm". Some people lose their passion for certain things over time. There can be some serious bumps and curves on the road of life and they can change peoples paths.<BR>I do agree that it's a shame for people that still have the "passion", not to be able to see the cars that are hidden away for various reasons. If you know someone that has one and doesn't seem to use it, politely encourage them to get it out and give you a ride. Even after interest has faded, these autos still have a better investment return than some of the "ventures" we "thought" were good investments. To top it off you can actually see the investment and touch it if you like. You can even sell it without a penalty for early withdrawal!!<BR>Lighten up PETER G, 55 replies ain't bad for a july topic. <BR> <p>[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: 54 Oldsman ]

[Guest]

Hey..guys..I couldn't agree more...heck..I just got my latest issue of OLD CARS WEEKLY. If you look carefully, out of the 30 odd pages...you CAN find one or two pages that does NOT have the word "classic" splashed all over it.<P>I guarantee you - when I "chuck" the latest BRITNEY SPEARS Dance Video into my VCR....and watch all those young body parts wriggle...it dosnt bother me a BIT that you kids like to call any ole thing you have...a "classic".<P>What I WAS pointing out...is that when someone yells "classic" at the old car they like...want to sell...etc.....the use of that word no longer tells us ANYTHING about the nature of the car...all it tells us...is the nature of the person using the word...!<P>Pete Hartmann

[Guest J446]

Peter you are so right. Cars are meant to be used. When I was 12 years old I went to the NY Auto Show. There were two cars there that 40 years later I can still see as if they were in front of me now. One was the Land Rover that had just won the Paris to Dakar Rally. The other was the Ferrari that<BR>had just won LeMans. Both were covered with dirt,grime and the scars of battle. The Ferrari's seat had a large sweat stain. The <BR>image of those cars will stay with me forever.<BR>A friend of mine worked for Mr Ferrari. The last time he saw him he was dismayed at having to deal with a board of directors.(FIAT had just bought Ferrari) He turned to my friend and said: "I don't care if the door seams are straight. I don't care if the car has electric windows, but when he steps on the accelerator I want him to sh*t his pants."<BR>Best<BR>Jim

[Guest]

I have one idea why people stash their cars for years without bringing them out. I think alot of them may simply be no longer interested in the car(s). I base this idea on the fact that I have been able to pry some of those cars away from owners at times with not all that much effort. Good old cash-in-hand does the trick more often than not and sometimes it doesn't take as much as I would have been willing to pay. Also, I once owned a car worth alot of money...at least to me. I remember looking at it one day and saying to myself "Do I want to keep the car or take the money and run?" I placed a Hemmings ad that afternoon. However, some people never get around to placing the ad. Find those guys and you might also find your next car before the rest of the world knows about it. Works for me.

[Bill Stoneberg]

Packardv8,<BR>Saw all 7 Chapperals last year at Elkhart Lake. It was a great show.<BR>If you read Road and Ttrack about last September they had a great Feature article on them. Dan Gurney talking about what it was like to race them and Jim Hall talking about the engineering.Also had an awesome drawing where it showed what the car looked like under the skin. I believe it was the 2E.<BR>The midland Museum wont open till next year but will have an amazing exhibit. Worth coming to see. Its a Great excuse to come to Texas).<BR> <P>[ 07-30-2002: Message edited by: Bill Stoneberg ]<p>[ 07-30-2002: Message edited by: Bill Stoneberg ]

[Dave@Moon]

Everyone seems to be saying that interest is lost, and that's that. I don't agree.<P>There must be some force that over time obscures the enjoyment of having the car on the road <I>(and at 45 mph you can find one hell of a lot of joy! ).</I> Finding that which <I>causes</I> the loss of interest is my goal here.<P>Ply33's comments on aging (both car and owner) are of course true, but can be accomodated in many ways (e.g. cell phone, AAA, etc.). However, he still drives 1000 miles a year decades into ownership, as do many others. Owner's like these are the lifeblood of the hobby. If we all stayed home and read <I>Collectible Automobile</I> all day, noone would appreciate our cars and there'd be noone for our heirs to sell them to. (Except, of couse, the local blowtorach artists down at the Vocational School's hot rod 101 class!)<P>What I wouldn't give to see a '12 T Touring drive by the window and interupt this post. Sadly, it won't happen.

[Guest]

J446: r all of your racers Ford powered???

[Guest]

someone wrote:<BR>"And just keep in mind that this is a hobby, just like golf, or stamp collecting, or gardening."<P>Jeez!!!!! I hope NOT!!!!!!!

[Guest J446]

My Ford MK-IV is powered by a 427, tunnel port, dual quad , side oiler. My Lola T70 is powered by a 365, webber carb, small block Chevy. My P4 Ferrari is powered by 265ci v12,Lucas mechanical fuel injected,4 cam 36 valved,24 spark plug ,4 coil,dual distributor,Ferrari.<p>[ 07-30-2002: Message edited by: J446 ]

[Guest]

j446: have u kept up with where the Chapparals (Hall/Sharp cars) are???? How 'bout CERV-II. CERV-I is at the Bowling Green mueseum last heard (and saw).

[Guest]

Peter Hartman,<BR>You make a statement that only "Classic" cars are worth driving. <BR>I am new to this forum and am missing your meaning of the word "Classic" I consider my 1963 Rambler 2 door a classic, as opposed to Porsche which is a race car, but that doesn't seem to jive with yours.<BR>Thanks for explaining.<BR>Tom<P>1963 Rambler<BR>1965 Porsche Vintage Racer

[Guest]

Tom :<P>I am unclear where you got the idea that I <P> "dont think anything but a (REAL)<BR> classic car is worth restoring".<P>What I was TRYING to do, is to get us to focus more on historical REALITY. What I DID try and point out, is that there was a far greater difference, in the performance of the big super luxury cars of the 1920's and '30,s then there is today, and THAT is why people who like the looks of the old "average man's car", generally "gut" them, saving only the sheet metal, if they want to have a pleasant driving experience.<P>I have modern "econo-box" ..(Toyota RAV-4). Thanks to modern technology, any of the little "poor man's cars" we would buy today, can drive all day at the same speeds as "rich folk" cars, in quiet comfort, and without a thought of over-heating and/or catastrophic engine failure.<P>Ever seen a "DESERT WATER BAG"..? That was the trade name of a canvas water bag sold all over the place, for people taking ordinary old cars on longer trips. People hung 'em on their grills, and the moving air kept the water cool.<P>The DESERT WATER BAG was one of many acknowledgmentw of the simple fact that people who bought ordinary cars in that era, did not expect, did not want to pay for, and did not get the ability to go fast under brutal conditions. <P>Contrast that with this....around 1920, there was a bus company in California that later evolved into GREYHOUND. Their 'thing' was bragging their high speed bus service could actually match the speed of the famous COAST DAYLIGHT (high speed passenger train) between Los Angeles and San Francisco. They used STOCK "OUT OF THE BOX" early Packard V-12's (then called the "Twin Six") which they "sectioned" and made longer. And that was with multiple stops on the miserable roads of that era, in the brutal conditions that the mountains and Central Valley of California could "dish out".<P>So, where you are confused..is you "read into" something I wrote, without "getting it". I was trying to under-score historical accuracy. I was just pointing out that people should be HONEST about the various eras. I personally think people SHOULD maintain their cars as "stock" as they can and still drive them. But that imposes limits most people dont want to bother with.<P>That is what I did with my own "thirties era" Packard Twelve. It came bone-stock with TREMENDOUS cooling capacity. It came with full flow oil filtering, AND oil cooling. It came with MONSTER brakes, roller tappets, wedge shaped pistons and fully machined combustion chamber, and the largest carbuerator seen in automotive use (the famous Stromberg EE-3) seen in automotive application until the four barrels started appearing 20 years later. Copper-lead "insert" type rod bearings, pioneered by Packard and Federal Mogul, guaranted the a 473 cu. in. V-12 could run wide open all day long without injury.<P>The ONLY modifications I made were to install 6 volt halogen bulbs inside the original head-light shells, and change the rear axle ratio, to reflect our modern cruising speeds are so much higher.<P>Now if I liked old "average man's cars", I'd have a whole different set of technical problems. I'd have to face the fact that it would be problamatical to use the existing running gear and come up with a safe, reliable driver for today's conditions. And THAT is why I would do what so many others do with their ordinary old cars of that era..they just "gut" them and mount the exterior sheet metal on modern components.<P>Depends on what you want to do with the car. I DO share your disappointment that more people wont restore their cars back to something approximating historical accuracy. But we have to FACE FACTS. For the ordinary guy who didn't have "big bucks" to buy the best, the "GOOD OLD DAYS"..werent that good...!<P>Hopefully, more and more people will recognize the ordinary old cars for what they were...and what they were NOT, accept the differences between them and the giant "road locomotives" of the day and accurately restore them.<P>There is a REASON why started the CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA, to respect those big "super luxury" cars, and try and preserve them. There is ALSO a reason why some people with the ordinary old cars, face their technical limitations, and "gut" em and "hot rod them" to make useable automobiles out of them.<P>Don says he'd like to see an old Model "T" Ford go by. I'd rather see a Lozier, Crane Simplex, Packard or Pierce Arrow of the same era blast by...probably nearly TWICE as fast in 2nd gear, as the FORD could go "flat out"...(and it sure as hell wouldn't go "flat out" for very long, on a hot day..!)

[1937hd45]

Peter, Could you give us some more details on the Greyhound / Twin-Six conversions? From your discription I'm picturing Greyhound taking delivery of bodyless chassis and modifying the grill and hood line, along with the wheelbase, is that correct? Guess this is an area that few have interest in. My guess is that Fageol was into high speed busses as well, given that they sponsored Indy 500 cars.<BR> Two weeks ago we traveled that short downhill section of I15 in Arizona for the first time. Since then I find myself agreeing with your posts more often than not. Must be something in the air, we plan to come back next year for the Grand Tour.<p>[ 07-31-2002: Message edited by: 1937hd45 ]

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Peter Hartman, <P>Perhaps this is where Tom got the idea you didn't think anything but a full classic was worth restoring:<P>"Bottom line...If I had an old Ford...Plymouth..Pontiac...etc...and I felt a need to actually DRIVE the damn thing...I'd do the only common sense thing you could do with an ordinary old car like that....jack up the body...thru the entire chassis and running gear in a dumpster...and mount the exterior sheet metal on modern components...."<P>"the only common sense thing you could do with an ordinary old car like that" ????? Please!<P>If you're going to run off at the mouth like that, the least you could do is remember what you said and stand behind your statement.<P>My Dad use to say "If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all". Maybe he didn't use the proper grammar, but you get the point. Why don't you take a break, wait until you can be civil to others, and come back on here and appologize for being such a jerk?

[Guest]

For '37<P>Watch out..you are in trouble....when you find yourself start agreeing with ME....you are starting to "lose it".....!<P>Hey..man...if you find yourself in northern Arizona, give us a call, and let's get together and tell some whoppers about how smart we are - I'll "buy". Be sure and give us advance notice - we aren't always home - my ranch is about one half hour's south of the old rail-road waterering town of ASH FORK, which is on I-10 between Kingman and Flagstaff.

[Guest]

For MODEL A...<P>Hey...man...I can't help that I am a jerk..but...my gracious friendly charm, incredible intelligence, youthful sexy Greek God stud muffin good looks, makes up for it...I hope !<P>I am NOT all that sure that your critic of me is fair. Consistancy..? Hurrumpf.....my dad used to say..."a clean ordered desk..is the sign of a diseased mind...".<P>Seriously, was I REALLY inconsistent..?...not so sure you are right. What I THOUGHT I was trying to point out, was the limitations of the ordinary old car, and how people who THINK they like old cars, may be glamorizing an era, and its manufactured prodcuts, in a way that is not realistic.<P>And I do have mixed emotions...and come up with conflicting views..depending on my "mood" at the time, as to whether I prefer "hot rodding" or authenticity.<P>Don't mis-read me - I LOVE Model "A" Fords...or for that matter, ANY old car..I think old car buffs can be proud of ANY old American car...for the money, and operated within their design limits, who could deny they were MAGNIFICENT, something we can all be proud of.<P>Who could ALSO deny, that with a little yankee ingenity, you can make a Model "A" into something it was not. When I was a kid, we used to call em "Mexican Jaguars". We'd find the engine out of a AA truck (some of these had full pressure cranks and better water pumps)...change the drive line over to a Borg Warner over-drive with Hotckkiss syle rear -end, machine the rods for "insert" type bearings,...etc...etc...etc.<P>What have you done to...and what do you do with your Model "A" ? Do NOT look for criticism from me...whatever you do..it is YOUR buisiness. Three cheers for you, for even being INTERESTED in the technology and history of a bye-gone era !<P>Of course if I was interested in one, as a daily driver, damn right I'd "hot rod" it in some way - since I personally tend towards as much authenticity as I can realistically save...I'd probably gravitate towards the "Mexican Jaguar" concept, rather than go for a whole modern drive line.<P>I APOLGIZE if I hurt anyone's feelings - this is SUPPOSED to be fun and educational - let's keep our perspective. Remember, there is always some guy richer or smarter than you...or I...some guy who has something bigger, better...longer ...etc. You DONT want to hear what I saw that I envied, when we went to a nude beach in the Carribean...!<P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, AZ

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Peter,<P>Apology accepted, on my part. Father Ron may require a penance. <P>As for my Model A, I am about half done with a frame up restoration. I am doing the whole thing myself, except the engine. Not having a machine shop or the expertise to pour babbitt, I farmed that out. It broke my heart. I seriously considered having the bearing and machine work done and assembling it myself, but to have it warranted, the fellow wanted to do the assembly himself. That is understandable. <P>All of the mechanical stuff is done (the fun part, in my opinion). I have a running chassis. I am currently in the middle of replacing wood inside the body. The Town Sedan has been called a rolling lumber yard. Body work is not my favorite part, so I admit I have taken more than my fair share of breaks from it lately.<P>It will be "original". I have used some reproduction parts, where replacement parts were needed, as I cannot afford to buy NOS parts. The paint scheme will be incorrect for my particular month of manufacture, but correct for the year. A lot of the bright work will be reproduction, because the cost of replating is more than the cost of plated repro parts. I will keep the original parts, in case my ship comes in (read "win the lottery").<P>Not being a professional restoration, it probably will never win any national awards, but that's OK. That's not why I'm restoring it. I just want to ride around the back roads on the weekend and attend the occasional show. I want to answer the questions I'll get when I stop for gas. I realize the car's limitations. Top end? 60 on a good day, 50-55 is probably more realistic. With the narrow tires, mechanical brakes, and the aerodynamics of a brick, 45 is probably a safer speed. Better on the babbitt bearing engine, as well. No sense in running it into the ground. I know the car's limitations, but am quite willing to live with them. I am looking forward to the day that I can drive it, again.

[Guest]

Hi Hal:<P>Thanks for the info. on your "A" - sounds like you are having a ball and learning a lot. <P>You may have seen elsewhere...my reservations about "babbit" bearings. I have absolutely NO confidence in them. As you know, the development of "precision-insert" type rod bearings in the mid 1930's, made modern high compression high rpm (translated - high bearing load) motors possible. Cars of your era were notorious for having rod trouble even when new, even under the modest speed conditions they were driven under.<P>To make matters worse...there appears something DIFFERENT and WRONG about the babbit restorers use.<P>I DONT know the answers to this, other than what I would do in your case - pull the rods out, "mike" your shaft, and have a machine shop use a Sun hone to bore out your rod bearings so as to take a modern "insert" type rod bearing.<P>I am sure you dont like the sound of this, but I must caution you I have many examples of disgusted car owners. It shouldn't be all that expensive to do this - then you wouldnt have to worry about "tossing a rod" at the modest speeds you are going to use your car for.<P>In any event..GOOD LUCK...guys like you are what makes me know I am in the right hobby..!<P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs AZ

[Guest]

Hi everyone,<BR>I stop by here on occasion, and just read this thread. I just made a decision on a purchase that sort of fits this category.<P>I'm buying a '66 Ford pickup. I wanted something I could take to cruises and maybe shows, but could also do occasional work around the house. I'm not interested in a restored truck as I'd be afraid to use it for truck purposes. I started out wanting a restored driver though, but changed my tune. The truck in question no longer has the original engine but is physically unaltered from stock appearance except for the wheels.<P>This truck will satisfy all my needs and will probably be driven with some frequency as it is modernized, nice looking and should be reliable. It is ineligible for any AACA judging, however, as it isn't original nor will I be too interested in returning it to stock (nor will I modify it further). The clincher on this truck over the countless others I considered was I can see myself actually using this one, while a 'restored' or original truck would probably languish in the garage. <BR>At Macungie I was first troubled by the number of rough-around-the-edges cars I saw in that show, but then realized who cares, these cars are getting driven. People are seeing them, and it has to have an impact. Thanks to the nice display of Nash and AMC cars, I have an interest in them that may cause me to persue one in the future.<P>The one restored car I have mostly sits in the garage to 'preserve' it, and also because it's not restored to a high enough standard I feel it is worthy of hitting the show field. Yup, it's kind of a waste, and I've considered selling it often recently.<P>I think this hobby has different levels of involvement for people. I'll liken it to model railroading (I used to do that before I could drive). Some like the electrics, some like the trains, some like building scenery. With cars, some like the hunt, some like the restoration, some like waxing and polishing and some like driving. I'm a tinkerer/driver, and this is the kind of vehicles I'm going to persue from now on. I realize that showing cars for trophies isn't my bag, but I do like going to shows and viewing the work of others. <P>No easy answer to this topic, methinks.