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Vogues or no vogues


64riviera
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Unfortunately I’m forced to get some new tires for my <st1:State w:st="on"><ST1:pRiviera</st1:State> and I do like the Vogues that are on there right now. I know that this could start a discussion about white walls and supremes and if these things match, look nice and so on and on and ……. (never-ending story).<O:p</O:p

I do like them, but the ones that are on it now are 235/70R15 and these rub the fender. This rubbing caused quite some damage to the tires, enough to get a discussion at the 2-annual DMV inspection. This, in combination with the age of the tires, made me decide to look for some new tires. <O:p</O:p

Because I like the vogues, they were my first choice, but it’s either 235/70 which will rub again (and get damaged again) or 215/70. <O:p</O:p

I’m not sure about the 215/70 tire. I’m afraid they are going to be to small (in diameter, not width), but on the other hand, they (probably) wouldn’t rub against the fender. <O:p</O:p

It would be either;<O:p</O:p

1. same size vogues and “lift” the car to avoid the rubbing<O:p</O:p

2. smaller size vogues, which (hopefully) would end the rubbing<O:p</O:p

<st1:metricconverter w:st="on" ProductID="3. a">3. a</st1:metricconverter> totally different tire (no my first choice). <O:p</O:p

<O:p</O:p

Any thoughts, opinions??

post-89405-143142225235_thumb.jpg

post-89405-143142225257_thumb.jpg

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I ran 235/70/15 on a set of stock rims. They rubbed the frame at full lock turning. No fender rub on a lowered car. I would never lift a car to make a tire fit. I do like the wheel and tire combo on your car. Sounds like the back spacing on the Supremes might be the hurdle here. Measure the back space on the front wheels. See if there are any options there. Are you running spacers on the front? Great color by the way.

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The conversion size that is "supposedly" correct for the OEM tire on the first generation Riviera is a 215/75R15 according to some conversion charts I've seen. I've been running 225/70R15 tires on both my '63 and '64 and have only experienced the frame rub at full lock as bb1970 described above. I agree that your problem could be related to the width, backspacing, and offset of your wheels. How wide are they? What's the offset and backspacing? There's a tire size calculator in the Member's Only section of the ROA's website that will help you compares tire diameters.

Ed

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Vogue doesn't make the 215/75 but if that would be the correct size, 215/70 wouldn't be that far of.

I don't know how much the offset or back spacing is.

I do run spacers, because otherwise the wheel doesn't fit the brake hub. It's a 5/16" spacer. It's possible that the fender rub is caused by a combination of tire size, back spacing and the spacers, but back spacing and spacers is something I need / can't change.

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Have you looked at the wheels to see if there's enough "meat" in them to have the center hole machined to fit over the hub so you could get rid of the spacers? Machining a lip in the back of the wheel would probably solve your problems. Or if you don't have a problem in the rears, perhaps you could find a set of '65 and later hubs for the front. The '65 and later hubs are a smaller diameter and might fit the wheel.

Ed

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Have you looked at the wheels to see if there's enough "meat" in them to have the center hole machined to fit over the hub so you could get rid of the spacers? Machining a lip in the back of the wheel would probably solve your problems. Or if you don't have a problem in the rears, perhaps you could find a set of '65 and later hubs for the front. The '65 and later hubs are a smaller diameter and might fit the wheel.

Ed

Well, that's an interesting thought. Interesting enough for me to go outside and take a wheel off. Do I have enough meat, yes and no, I guess. In the picture you see the back of the wheel, and if I would have machined a lip in the back, the part with the arrow would be cut in half, leaving about a bit more than just 1/8" (4 mm, about 0.16"). Maybe to little, cause it would go through the metal if you know what I mean.

post-89405-143142225566_thumb.jpg

Go to the Vogue website and the is a size calculator that you can type in your OEM size(215/75R15 standard or 225/75R15) and it will give you a size that Vogue has that is close to it.

Hi Gerard.

I don't see the calculator, but in 15" and 70 high it's either 205 (to small), 215 maybe?? or 235, and that is what I have now.

[TABLE=class: productSpecTable tyres]

<thead>[TR]

[TH=align: left]Size &

Speed Rating[/TH]

[TH=align: center]Warranty[/TH]

[TH=align: center]Load

Range[/TH]

[TH=align: center]W/W

Width[/TH]

[TH=align: center]Max Load[/TH]

[TH=align: center]Tread

Footprint

Width[/TH]

[TH=align: center]Tread

Depth[/TH]

[TH=align: center]Section

Width[/TH]

[TH=align: center]Measured

Rim Width[/TH]

[TH=align: center]Min

Rim Width[/TH]

[TH=align: center]Max

Rim Width[/TH]

[TH=align: center]Overall

Diameter[/TH]

[TH=align: center]Product

Weight[/TH]

[TH=align: center]Part #[/TH]

[/TR]

</thead><tbody>[TR=bgcolor: #444444]

[TD]P205/70R15 95S[/TD]

[TD=align: center]B[/TD]

[TD=align: center]SL[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1.0"[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1499 lbs[/TD]

[TD=align: center]5.9[/TD]

[TD=align: center]11/32[/TD]

[TD=align: center]8.2[/TD]

[TD=align: center][/TD]

[TD=align: center][/TD]

[TD=align: center][/TD]

[TD=align: center]26.5[/TD]

[TD=align: center]25.1 lbs.[/TD]

[TD=align: center]0.1182.941[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=bgcolor: #626262]

[TD]215/70R15 98T[/TD]

[TD=align: center]B[/TD]

[TD=align: center]SL[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1.0"[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1620 lbs

@ 44p.s.i.[/TD]

[TD=align: center]6.3[/TD]

[TD=align: center]10/32[/TD]

[TD=align: center]8.7[/TD]

[TD=align: center][/TD]

[TD=align: center][/TD]

[TD=align: center][/TD]

[TD=align: center]27.1[/TD]

[TD=align: center]26.1 lbs.[/TD]

[TD=align: center]0.2182.951[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=bgcolor: #444444]

[TD]235/70R15 103T[/TD]

[TD=align: center]B[/TD]

[TD=align: center]SL[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1.0"[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1896 lbs[/TD]

[TD=align: center]6.9[/TD]

[TD=align: center]10/32[/TD]

[TD=align: center]9.5[/TD]

[TD=align: center][/TD]

[TD=align: center][/TD]

[TD=align: center][/TD]

[TD=align: center]28.4[/TD]

[TD=align: center]29.1 lbs.[/TD]

[TD=align: center]0.2182.981[/TD]

[/TR]

</tbody>[/TABLE]

post-89405-143142225543_thumb.jpg

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If you can't machine the wheel, how about the hub itself? As Ed suggested, a 65 hub has a smaller diameter hub. You can get the your 64 hubs machined down so the wheels you have fit the 64 hub, without the use of spacers. If you take the 5/16" spacer out of the mix, the fender rub should go away.

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On the ROA's website, there's a tire conversion chart. Depending on whether your car came with the standard 7.10 x 15 tires or the optional 7.60 by 15 tires, is the factor in determining which is the appropriate replacement radial size. You have to also realize that the 7.10 tire came on a 5-1/2" rim and the 7.60 tire came on a 6" rim. The suggested replacement for the 7.10 on a 5.5" rim is the 215/75R15 radial; the suggested replacement for the 7.60 x 15 on the 6" rim is the 225/75R15. 235 mm is a bit too wide, especially if your running aftermarket wheels and they're 7" wide rims.

Ed

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The wheels I'm running now are 7".

I just realized that I forgot to mention one (important) thing and that is that het car is lowered. Sorry.:o

I'm kind of surprised that no one seems the 215/70 an option. In this case all of the "problems" could be solved.

Finding a ’65 hub isn’t that easy in Europe, and having acouple of them shipped over to Europe could become really expensive. Maybe machining down the hubs would be an option. Have to check that out.

I friend of mine is shipping a car over to Europe in 2 weeks, so that’s how I get the tires in Europe without paying ridiculous shipping costs.

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just throwing this out there-ive got a set of hankook 235/75r on my 64 27 1/2" tall-cooper 225/70r on my 63 26" tall-when i first got the coopers i thought they might be too small-i like them and the way the car sits(see at post pics of your riv)i do have some rub at full lock-car has GS springs with spacers for road wheels.T.Nugent...

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Hi Thimothy, nice to hear from you again.

Haven't had a chance to put the original springs under the car. This would take care of the problems to, but, and that is something I decided shortly, I'm going to try to keep the car as "low" (or high) as it is and try to get the best ride under these conditions. If this doesn't work out the way I want it, I can always put the original springs underneath.

I tend to the 215/70 tire, but.....

The difference in diameter between a 225/70 and a 215/70 is "just" 0.5".

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I'm thinking that it's not as much your tires, guys have been running bigger tires than you without problems, but it your wheels. From looking at the pictures and considering your description of the wheels, I'm guessing that a 7" wide wheel, with the offset you see in the pictures, plus running a 5/16" spacer is what is causing your problems. I know of one gentleman who is running 8" wide 17" diameter tires with 50 series tires on them. The car is lowered 2" and he doesn't have any problems. He sent all of his dimensions to the wheel company and they built the wheels with the backspacing and offset to make sure that he had clearance for everything.

The aspect ratio of the tire just tells you what % the height is to the width. All 215 tires are 215 mm wide. A 215/75 tire would measure about 161 mm from the rim to the road. A 215/70 tire would measure 150 mm from the rim to the road. The only differences will be in the height of the tire. 25.4 mm = 1".

Perhaps there's a tire vendor in your area that has a tool like this one. With it, you can set the wheel diameter, backspacing, offset, and then use the wire to simulate different tire sizes.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Percys/760/01201/10002/-1?parentProductId=761153#moreDetails

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Marcel, I have 17x7s in the front with a 235/55/17 tire on a bagged car with no rubbing issues. Anybody who has a lathe to turn brake drums can turn down your hubs. Plenty of meat to work with and still leave plenty of strength. If I am thinking right, the caps on your wheels go in from the back. Take one of your caps with you if you get the hubs turned down. You will know you have it right when the cap fits down over the hub and seats on the drum. One other thing to check if you go this way, that is the rivits that hold the hub to the drum, if these are still in place. May have to do some slight grinding on the heads of these to get the wheel to seat properly against the drum.

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Most cars don't even have rivets hold the drums on. I know a guy who destroyed a Buick aluminum drum trying to take it off the hub. He kept beating on it thinking it was stuck. Didn't know that, unlike most cars, Buick rivets the drum to the hub. You'll probably have to take the drum off the hub anyway in order to turn the hub. If you do, think twice about riveting them back together. If you look closely at the 65 and later hubs, you'll notice that there's a gap between the drum and the hub. Buick didn't redesign the drum when they went to the smaller hub, they used the same ones that they had been using in previous years. If you did find later hubs, you can use the drums you now have. Also, the hubs/drums are NOT specific to Rivieras, they're shared with all full sized Buicks from that era.

Ed

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Marcel, I have 17x7s in the front with a 235/55/17 tire on a bagged car with no rubbing issues. Anybody who has a lathe to turn brake drums can turn down your hubs. Plenty of meat to work with and still leave plenty of strength. If I am thinking right, the caps on your wheels go in from the back. Take one of your caps with you if you get the hubs turned down. You will know you have it right when the cap fits down over the hub and seats on the drum. One other thing to check if you go this way, that is the rivits that hold the hub to the drum, if these are still in place. May have to do some slight grinding on the heads of these to get the wheel to seat properly against the drum.

You're thinking right, the caps go in from the back. I'll take the drum of and find some one who can turn down the hub. This would make a 5/16"difference.

I think it is a combination of a lot of things, off set, back spacing, spacers, ... No rub on the frame, only on the fender.

And yes, I do have rivits holding the drum.

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Check and make sure if you set the wheel deeper on the hub that you don't hit the fins on the drums. I had trouble with the hoop of the rim (with the wire wheels) hitting the flared out part of the fin. It would be a shame to have the hub machined. Only to discover it still won't work. I couldn't find white walls in a 235/70/15 to replace the Michelins that were 13 years old. Except Vogues. I went with 225/70/15.

post-66273-143142226493_thumb.jpg

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That's a good thing to check first. If there were still 225/70 vogues, this thread wouldn't have existed.

Thanks.

Like the car by the way.

Just went out and checked it. It's kind of difficult to measure but it's going to be a very close call.

I also found some one who would machine down the hub for a very "friendly" amount. So I'm going to let him machine it down and if it doesn't fit because of the cooling fin, I always can put the spacer back in between (or slightly grind the fin, depending on how much space would be needed. Like I said, a close call).

Edited by 64riviera (see edit history)
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  • 3 weeks later...

Thought I would give you an update.

Got the hub back, finally, so now I could install the wheel without the spacer. I added some pictures of the hub before and after being machined down.

post-89405-143142250195_thumb.jpg

Fortunately the cooling fins on the hub and the rivits didn't touch the wheel.

I does make a difference but the tire still rubs if I turn the wheel to its max and, at this position, I would ride through a hole or drainage (or rain gutter; not shure about the correct translation).

I decided to go with the 235 /70 R 15 vogues, so now it's a matter of finding the right place to buy them.

They aren't sold in Europe so I have to find a store in the US I can buy them at and have them shipped to a friend of mine in California who is shipping cars to Europe on a regular base.

Thanks for your thoughts and ideas.

post-89405-143142250221_thumb.jpg

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[ATTACH=CONFIG]220188[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]220187[/ATTACH]

Fortunately the cooling fins on the hub and the rivits didn't touch the wheel./QUOTE]

When I first installed my wheels, I thought they cleared the rivets as well. These were a dual pattern and the holes for the other pattern lined up with the rivet heads. After a really close look, I realized they were just bearing on the top outside of the rivet head before being fully seated. I had to grind away the outside edge of the rivet head to get the wheel to fully seat. Bearing on the three rivies made the wheel feel seated, but it wasn't. For safety sake, be sure these are seated properly.

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Hi Steve.

I'm 100% sure the fins don't touch.

As for the rivets, I took the hub, placed it on a stand, painted it, and with the paint still wet I put the wheel over the hub and tried to turn it (at least for as much as the play between the wheel studs and slots in the wheel allowed). When I took the wheel of I could see what /where the wheel touched the hub.

It only touched where it should touch, in other words, the paint on the rivets wasn't touched by the wheel.

But this was all without the wheel tightened to the hub. Small effort to make sure it's safe, I'll take the wheel off to make a final check.

Last thing I want is losing a wheel when driving on the "autobahn" ;)

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