My 63, first day back from mechanic shop

[Guest Pearville]

Last night my mechanic delivered my 63, to my shop/storage garage. This is the first time since I bought it that I have had a chance to remove carpeting and see floor pans and trunk pan. Actually wasn't as bad as I thought it could be. I took some photos of the overall condition, rust repairs needed, floor pan patching etc. Would appreciate an honest opinion from experienced restorers on the beginning condition of my car. I plan to put it into driver condition, not show quality. I love the car and want to be proud to drive it without spending so much I have to live in it. It runs well, new brakes, and although the pics look pretty bad, I am encouraged and can't wait to move ahead. Let me know what you think. I think I have uploaded the pics with this post, I know I put them in an album on my profile. Thanks for your comments, I'm for Texas I can take it, so have at it. Mike

[Jim Cannon]

It's not that bad. I've seen worse. If you can weld in patch panels and do the metal work yourself, that will reduce cost to repair rust out.

The most common cause of the trunk and floor rusting out is water leaking in at the back window, the front windshield, and a leaking heater core.

Check them in that order. Remove the stainless trim around the windows and look at the body down in the corners. Get in the trunk with the trim off and look up for light shining through.

Once the water gets in, the rug and padding holds it there next to the metal and it rusts out.

Try not to take too much apart at one time. Work on small projects. Drive the car between projects. Then go do another project. Driving the car is fun and will keep you motivated to tackle the next project.

[Guest Pearville]

It's not that bad. I've seen worse. If you can weld in patch panels and do the metal work yourself, that will reduce cost to repair rust out.

The most common cause of the trunk and floor rusting out is water leaking in at the back window, the front windshield, and a leaking heater core.

Check them in that order. Remove the stainless trim around the windows and look at the body down in the corners. Get in the trunk with the trim off and look up for light shining through.

Once the water gets in, the rug and padding holds it there next to the metal and it rusts out.

Try not to take too much apart at one time. Work on small projects. Drive the car between projects. Then go do another project. Driving the car is fun and will keep you motivated to tackle the next project.

Thanks Jim, I cannot weld due to heart condition and pacemaker but I can get it done pretty cheap from friends. Your advice is well taken, I know the tendency is to tear it all down at once. I will take it slow and continue to ask for advice. Thanks again

[Guest Steeleco]

Looks like a great car but you got some work to do. Unless the rust is repaired properly it will come back. That probably means pulling the back and front glass to seal leaks. I cut alot of corners with the riv I got last year in similar condition (not quited so bad around trunk and glass) but the floor boards were in bad shape. I made my car what I wanted without spending big money or years to do it. Its white, it shines (painted in the driveway), runs good and with the new interior I put in it's not bad. Not reccomending any of this but I repaired some body stuff and floor boards with fiberglass and rivited galvanized sheets (easy to work with but you can't weld it.) Oh yea, i stopped the leak in my rear windshied by laying in urethane sealant. Been holding up pretty good then reinstalled the stainless trim.

[RivNut]

I looked at similarly "infected" '63 a couple of months ago. I did find that rust free rear tail panels exist and can be replaced for less that trying to create the channel for the trunk seal. The factory seams are on the peaks of the fenders and you can see the overlap on the trunk seal channel. Not that hard if can do some R&R or know someone who can. A friend of mine made a new front for his hood using a sheet metal brake to make a couple of pieces then welding them together and welding it in place. It's hard to fix because it's a double panel in that area.

The rust in the trunk isn't bad but be sure to look underneath the same area. The body mounts to the frame in that area and the body has a cup on it that bolts to the frame. Make sure that the cup isn't gone. I've seen more rusted out cups than badly rusted floors.

Make sure that you do as Jim says and pull the valance between the hood and the windshield so you can see the area where the windshield mounts to the body. I bought a car out of Arizona and found rust along that seam.

Other wise some patch panels will get you a driver that you can enjoy. Some of the really small pin holes can be treated to convert the rust, encapsulate it, and then be filled in with All-Metal (brand name) body filler and sanded smooth.

Ed

[Guest Pearville]

Looks like a great car but you got some work to do. Unless the rust is repaired properly it will come back. That probably means pulling the back and front glass to seal leaks. I cut alot of corners with the riv I got last year in similar condition (not quited so bad around trunk and glass) but the floor boards were in bad shape. I made my car what I wanted without spending big money or years to do it. Its white, it shines (painted in the driveway), runs good and with the new interior I put in it's not bad. Not reccomending any of this but I repaired some body stuff and floor boards with fiberglass and rivited galvanized sheets (easy to work with but you can't weld it.) Oh yea, i stopped the leak in my rear windshied by laying in urethane sealant. Been holding up pretty good then reinstalled the stainless trim.

I have been thinking about doing some of the smalls myself and getting someone to do the larger more difficult stuff. We have a lot of guys in the area who do pretty good work at economy prices. I know you get what you pay for, but I'll be 70 next month, how long do I need it to last? Thanks for the advice.

[Guest Pearville]

Thanks a lot Ed, I was looking for a good brand name for filler, thanks for that. I will pay attention to that body mount and the valence in front. I am learning a great deal here, I knew you guys would come through. Thanks again. Mike

[lrlforfun]

OK Mike: Unless this car is something special to you and you are bonded to it I say BAIL IMMEDIATELY. I have fixed my share of First-gen Rivieras and I believe this car is too far gone. Why?......

*The rust is everywhere and unless you have done this before or can get the repairs done for free it will turn into a black hole and never come out any good. Someone who's competent most likely will NOT do this repair work for cheep. Even hack shops and hack backyard guys aren't cheep.

*The a/c stuff is missing. Another clue to the fact that this car was rode hard and put away wet. No big deal? Write the check and tell me after the 4th guy tries to fix it right.

*The white paint looks like a re-paint. This is most likely hiding a heck of a lot more rust than you think. Rust on these cars can be hiding all over the place and after you start stripping the paint off is when it really gets ugly.

Mike, you can purchase a really good car, one that was good from the start and upgraded for much less than you will have in this one. If you want to do the work yourself at least start with a much better example, if not just find one. Since the price of the first gen Rivs has gone up everybody has one for sale because they want the money and if you look hard enough you will find a great example for a good price. They are out there! Good luck. I know it's not what you wanted to hear but your car is really rough and I believe you can do much much much better. Personally I love rough old Rivieras but that's something that tickles my fancy. I wouldn't dream of doing a car like yours. Mitch

Edited August 25, 2013 by lrlforfun (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

Hi Mike,

It is very hard to make an informed, comprehensive decision over the internet but because you referenced your age and not wanting to get financially buried in this car I am somewhat skeptical about this example.

Was this car located in a salt air environment? I ask because it appears, from the few pics posted, that there is heavy rust in upper body areas where condensation has collected. These areas are very difficult to form metal patches for....and that is the only lasting remedy for rust repair.

On the other hand, I have seen cars with this type of rust, ocean cars, which are very sound in the frame and floor pans due to the absence of road salt, etc..and will still be structurally sound after repairs and represent a sound "base" to start from. Hard to tell without many more pics.

But my initial reaction, referencing your priorities/goals, and the few pics posted, is RUN AWAY and do as Mitch has suggested. It still amazes me that there are so many high quality first generation cars which are still available at very attractive prices.

Stay cool down in Texas, good luck!

Tom Mooney

[Guest Pearville]

Do not apologize for your expert opinion, I am sure you came by it through many a failure and hopefully some successes. Although I like the car as stated before, I can learn to love again. Thanks for being honest, I am not so deep in this car financially that I can't get out with most of my back side intact. Thanks again.

[Guest Pearville]

Thanks for being honest. We are 35 miles from Galveston beach and yes it has probably been around salt air most of its life. You guys have given me much to think about, which is just what I needed before proceeding. Thanks again, Mike

[Guest Lasse]

Have to agree with Mitch and Tom. Very hard to add new sheetmetal to those holes around the rear, requires a lot of fabrication and a guy who really knows his stuff. Floor boards are easy.

Steele, having been in a similar situation with leaking windshields I have to say I shuttered a bit when you described your cure. That was the exact thing some one had done to my Princess, and the result was bad. Just adding sealant will_not make it 100 % waterproof but the sealant will instead form a nice niche which will never dry out and lets the rust do it's job unseen under it. It will eat away the frames and the metal under the parcel shelf. And the trunk and the floorboards...

Sorry mate!

[Guest Pearville]

I looked at similarly "infected" '63 a couple of months ago. I did find that rust free rear tail panels exist and can be replaced for less that trying to create the channel for the trunk seal. The factory seams are on the peaks of the fenders and you can see the overlap on the trunk seal channel. Not that hard if can do some R&R or know someone who can. A friend of mine made a new front for his hood using a sheet metal brake to make a couple of pieces then welding them together and welding it in place. It's hard to fix because it's a double panel in that area.

The rust in the trunk isn't bad but be sure to look underneath the same area. The body mounts to the frame in that area and the body has a cup on it that bolts to the frame. Make sure that the cup isn't gone. I've seen more rusted out cups than badly rusted floors.

Make sure that you do as Jim says and pull the valance between the hood and the windshield so you can see the area where the windshield mounts to the body. I bought a car out of Arizona and found rust along that seam.

Other wise some patch panels will get you a driver that you can enjoy. Some of the really small pin holes can be treated to convert the rust, encapsulate it, and then be filled in with All-Metal (brand name) body filler and sanded smooth.

Ed

Ed, do you have a vendor for All Metal or do yo buy it online. I can't find a vendor in Houston area , Thanks Mike

[RivNut]

The guy who runs the body shop I use purchases it at his local auto-body supply shop. If you can't find any locally, Eastwood sells it. USC All Metal Quart

If it's for sale in a town of 60,000, surely a place as big as Houston has it somewhere.

The product is USC All-Metal. Surely they have a website and contact info.

[Guest Pearville]

I'm going to call the company tomorrow and find a local vendor. Thansk Ed

[petelempert]

Anything is fixable. If a man made it...a man can fix it. That said, I think you need to set your expectations. All those who theorized that there's more rust than you can see are exactly right. Some of the rust in your photos looks hot, sweaty and aggressive. If they blast that off, you are going to have some really big holes to fill. Seems to me like you'll need to do a complete dis-assemble, media blast and epoxy coat to stop the rust. Then you can think about patch panels. If you can find a good body man, you've got some time and money to burn and you really love that car...go for it. If you are even slightly unsure, you might want to consider another, drier car. Hate to be a downer. I just had a southern car that looked pretty dry painted. Rust showed up in places I never imagined and it was spendy to fix. Eyes wide open brother! PRL

[Guest Pearville]

Thanks for your post, being a downer is sometimes the only way to be a friend. I have a lot to think about on this one. Fortunately I don't have a lot of money in this car. Thanks again. Mike

[JZRIV]

Do not apologize for your expert opinion, I am sure you came by it through many a failure and hopefully some successes. Although I like the car as stated before, I can learn to love again. Thanks for being honest, I am not so deep in this car financially that I can't get out with most of my back side intact. Thanks again.

Mike,

Unfortunately your car is not a good candidate for a fixer upper. Too far gone considering there are solid examples that can be had for very reasonable money. Whatever you have in it, take the loss, don't fret over it, and move on. Worse than that would be sinking more money into it. If I was 70 I'd want a car I could hop in and drive. Heck, I want that now and I'm 51. Even if you could do weld repairs yourself, finding the rust free panels, having them properly cut out and shipped alone would be a time consuming and costly task. There is almost ALWAYS more rust besides what is visible on the outside.

Good luck in whatever you decide.

[Guest Pearville]

Thanks, Mike

[RivNut]

Mike,

I don't know what kind of money you have in your car and it's none of my business, but I'm betting there are still many good parts on it that someone would want. If it has power windows AND power vents, I'm looking for some good window switch panels, the one that are part of the arm rest. I can see that someone has already done a dual master cylinder conversion on it. It seems that the fan shroud is in pretty good shape. However it has a Holley carburetor on it, not OEM, and one of those "fire hazard" see through gas filters. If the engine and transmission are in good shape, there is probably a buyer out there somewhere. If the water temperature is not corroded shut/open it's made of unobtanium and will be worth a lot to someone.

Look for a nice one, get in it and drive it.

Ed

[Guest Pearville]

My mechanic put on the new MC and booster, still don't have the brake switch on the pedal though. I called a local guy today who has a finished 63, and he may be interested in a trade. My investment here is probably less than some of you guys pay for parts cars. Are you speaking of the water temp gauge or what?

[RivNut]

The water temperature control valve is on the firewall. The heater hose runs to it and from it down to the heater core. A cable from the dash controls how much it is open and determines how much hot water goes to the heater. A small wire runs from this to a door in the heater on the firewall.

Corrosion causes this valve to "freeze" rendering it useless. If yours is not frozen, it's worth something to someone.

Ed

[Guest Pearville]

I'll have to check that out. Thanks

[Guest Steeleco]

I'm the Point, Counter Point guy here. You guys are all correct about it being a little crazy to do so much work on a car that is so far gone. But here is how I see it. If you get it for almost nothing and you have fun fixing it and when it's done you can be proud of it and enjoy it because you rebuild it (even though you know it ain't perfect etc.), what's the harm? It's like building a sand castle that you know a wave will crash in time anyway. And as I've said before, these cars are to cool and important to history to go to the crusher as a carcus if it can be saved. If enough of them stay around maybe the aftermarket parts will become more available. (now that's a stretch I know). Thanks for letting me add my 2 cents. You guys are great!!!

[Guest Pearville]

I'm the Point, Counter Point guy here. You guys are all correct about it being a little crazy to do so much work on a car that is so far gone. But here is how I see it. If you get it for almost nothing and you have fun fixing it and when it's done you can be proud of it and enjoy it because you rebuild it (even though you know it ain't perfect etc.), what's the harm? It's like building a sand castle that you know a wave will crash in time anyway. And as I've said before, these cars are to cool and important to history to go to the crusher as a carcus if it can be saved. If enough of them stay around maybe the aftermarket parts will become more available. (now that's a stretch I know). Thanks for letting me add my 2 cents. You guys are great!!!

A very good counterpoint Steele. The ironic part is that everyone is right. Each car is different, each owner different and may have a different goal in mind. There are many things in life that don't make sense to those who are watching, but we do them anyway. As long as the individual is happy with the outcome its all good. I will decide if partial restoration is good enough for me or not. The car is not good enough for show quality but it still might good enough for fun. Makes for interesting discussions anyway. Mike

[Sweet64rivi]

The very first thing you should do is join the ROA! Well worth it!

Edited August 28, 2013 by Sweet64rivi (see edit history)

[Sweet64rivi]

It's not that bad. I've seen worse. If you can weld in patch panels and do the metal work yourself, that will reduce cost to repair rust out.

The most common cause of the trunk and floor rusting out is water leaking in at the back window, the front windshield, and a leaking heater core.

Check them in that order. Remove the stainless trim around the windows and look at the body down in the corners. Get in the trunk with the trim off and look up for light shining through.

Once the water gets in, the rug and padding holds it there next to the metal and it rusts out.

Try not to take too much apart at one time. Work on small projects. Drive the car between projects. Then go do another project. Driving the car is fun and will keep you motivated to tackle the next project.

Good points. I just looked at a base 65 Riv with a 425. Looks like the previous owner kept it outside 24/7. The paint on the trunk, roof and hood has peeled off but funny thing is no rust on the bare metal. However, lots of thick crusty surface rust on everything metal on the bottom of the car. The rear of the roof had the remnants of duct tape from one end to the other which was clearly used to hold plastic over the rear window. The window gasket was gone. Water seeped into every crevice. All the wood trim inside was warped. Good points was no holes like this car pictured. Motor in good shape and numbers matching. The biggest drawback was the $8,000 price he thinks he's going to get.

[Guest Rob J]

In short, I'd dump it, and find a nicer one. You'll be in it for less money in the long haul, unless you are a glutton for punishment as I am.

[Guest Pearville]

Already a member thanks

[Carbuff2]

I purchased a beautiful, black on black, a/c Riviera that set in DRY climate Fresno, CA from a neighbor .... everything looked great but on the interior all the threads were coming apart, the trunk floor looked bad and under the back window it was rusted, so I ordered the lower back window/ top of the trunk from (Texas) and had it put on, repaired the trunk and then proceeded to have it painted .... wow what a surprise, under every chrome strip was rust and looking close most joints were rusty..... I re-evaluated and parted out the ONE OWNER RIVIERA with the original title in hand. Sold the interior as I had had it done while the trunk was being done, the engine, trans and many interior parts. Received enough cash $5000+ to purchase a rust free nice running Riviera. I do not know where I would have ended up proceeding on the one I parted out. Weigh your options and make your decisions. When you have your most accurate guess/estimate of how much you will invest. DOUBLE IT AND YOU WILL BE CLOSER. Still many first gen Rivs available .... maybe AZ, CA or other dry state, shipping should be no more that $1000. Thats my two cents. Good Luck whichever way you go. Paul

[lrlforfun]

OK Paul: You are a seasoned First-gen guy who has parted out a ton of these things. You are in the groove in this department. Pearville? I don't know. Personally I would only break up a First Gen Riv if it was just horrible all across the board. This particular car is a driver and might be suited to one who isn't that concerned with a restoration. Mitch

[Guest Pearville]

Paul and Mitch, Thank you both for you input. Paul I appreciate your effort to tell me that starting on this level car can be a long and expensive road. Mitch, You are trying to keep good 1st Gens. from being sold off as parts. Sure there are some much nicer cars out there for at least twice what I have invested. This car is close to streetable (brake lights, tires) and I have less than 3 in it. Rest assured I am much to tight to get over my head. I may experiment with some of my own body work and rust repair. When I get tired of it I will turn it for what I can get. Life is good, it will keep me busy, and I will have fun with the young people wondering what it is. Mike

[RivNut]

When I get tired of it I will turn it for what I can get. Life is good, it will keep me busy, and I will have fun with the young people wondering what it is. Mike

Great attitude!

Ed

[Guest Steeleco]

Mike,

When you get that thing looking good people will go "Holy Crap, this thing looks great". And you will have the satisfaction of knowing you brought something back to life,

Cheers!

[Patrick91914]

When I bought my car about 15 years ago, it was solid, rust free car from S. California. After $10k - $15k restoration costs (Chrome, Paint, Upholstery, Replacing Interior Wood, yadda, yadda, yadda) It's still not done. It's sorta close but still requires some financial support. Even if you don't want a show car, you may need twice much that to complete your car. My suggestion would be to cut your losses and find a more solid example. This WILL save you money and make you happier.

[Guest Pearville]

I am in the process of working on the body rust and so far I am really enjoying myself. As I told my wife yesterday, as long as I am having fun I will work on it, when its not fun anymore I can sell it. As far as money goes, don't we all lose money on most of our hobby's. "Still crazy after all these years" Mike

[RivNut]

...so far I am really enjoying myself. As I told my wife yesterday, as long as I am having fun I will work on it, when its not fun anymore I can sell it. As far as money goes, don't we all lose money on most of our hobby's. "Still crazy after all these years" Mike

I think you've said it all right here. Isn't this why we're all in it - for the fun. As long as it's fun for you, we should keep our noses out of your business. What's fun for you might not be fun for someone else. Isn't diversity the spice of life?

Ed

[lrlforfun]

OK Pearville: After all the feedback you received, which I believe was really objective and non-biased, you went ahead anyway. No disrespect here now....what was it it that you really wanted to hear? Mitch.

[Guest Pearville]

I think you've said it all right here. Isn't this why we're all in it - for the fun. As long as it's fun for you, we should keep our noses out of your business. What's fun for you might not be fun for someone else. Isn't diversity the spice of life?

Ed

I am not offended by anyone's opinion, after all I started this thread by asking for just that. Thank God we are all different in our thinking or life would be very dull. I have already learned a great deal from being on this forum, and am looking to learn more. Think about when you all get together, don't you usually get around to talking about the "restoration", of your car, and the worst it was to start with the prouder you are to tell it. If I every finish I'll have a lot to brag about. Mike

[Guest Pearville]

OK Pearville: After all the feedback you received, which I believe was really objective and non-biased, you went ahead anyway. No disrespect here now....what was it it that you really wanted to hear? Mitch.

I wanted to hear exactly what I heard, objective opinions, and got those on both sides. Some say it doesn't look that bad, some say run. I was always going to make my own decision, I just wanted some input on what you guys thought. Didn't mean to waste anyone's time. Mike