Rescue Me - '51 41D

[Eric W]

Went back out to try the hi/lo beam switch - hi beams work. So that's a plus.

And I noticed the license plate light works.

Inside the trunk light - no.

Reverse light - 1 of 2.

[JohnD1956]

Nice! Love the pictures

[Buicknutty]

Looks like progress is being made!

Keith

[Guest shadetree77]

Those map lights are pretty cool aren't they? I just got mine working for the first time since I've had the car. Does your light switch work correctly? Mine was sticking between the 3 different positions. I got under there, took it loose, and cleaned the contacts. Works good now. I didn't like how the bullet lights go out when you turn the headlights on. I wired the bullet running lights to a hidden toggle switch so I can turn them on WITH the headlights. Looks really cool. I also re-wired my bullets with amber dual-filament bulbs so they serve dual purpose as running lights and turn signals. My car didn't have signals originally.

[Eric W]

My car has the turn signals - not working. I don't know if the light switch is working correctly, but it's pretty easy to put the map lights on by rotating the knob. It's a little "crunchy", not smooth, so it probably needs to be cleaned. But it works the way it is.

Got the low beams to work by cycling the high/low relay a couple of times. That was cool.

The reverse light - checked for power at the in-line connector inside the trunk - good. Pulled the lens and bulb out - checked for power in the socket - good. It's a dead bulb. Local store has them.

Horn - I twist-tied the horn ring down. Checked for input power at the relay - good. Checked for power at the big lead - good. Shorted across the leads with a screwdriver - horns work. Need a relay. Local store can get them.

Figure out the starter, and the essential electrical is covered.

[Eric W]

Trunk light - tried to check - may not have power at the socket.

Glove box light - not working, didn't spend time to see if there's power there.

Ignition coil - has power.

Added oil.

Just for the heck of it, cycled the starter switch a couple of times - it turns over!

Put the battery on the charger.

Still no gas or coolant, but it's pretty close.

[55 SURVIVOR]

Eric; Love the pics!! That car looks great!!!!!!!!! Most of the time as was mine it was A bad ground,I had A long list of electrical items that did not work,it was A the ground,bad bulb,bad connection,just hound dog through it one at A time. Mark M

[Eric W]

I'll get the horn relay & reverse bulb today. Then the electrical items not working are things not critical to just driving around:

- glove box light

- radio

- trunk light

- heater fan

- turn signals

(defroster fan is off the car at the moment)

[JohnD1956]

I apologize if you already know this but sometimes you can fix a trunk light by tilting it a little bit. Most are Mercury switches and work like the old house thermostat. When tilted the mercury flows to the low spot where the contacts are, there-by completing the circuit. Just be sure the light goes off when the trunk is closed or you'll have a dead battery.

[Eric W]

I figured there was a tilt switch in there somewhere. I had the trunk lid full open when checking, but I plan to take the light assembly loose to see more of what's in there. It's inside a little cup-shaped housing, so it's hard to even see the socket.

I got all of the gauge lights + clock to light up yesterday with more cycling of the light switch... And the radio lights up, but no sound.

[Eric W]

Got the reverse light going. Had to make a new gasket for the lens. Sure, they are available, but I had some 1/16" gasket sheet stock & cut 2 for more or less the needed thickness to have it put back together for now.

Got the horn relay in - and now the + supply from the horn ring is out. It was working the other day (when the fault was isolated to the relay). Figure that out later.

On another thread I started in Post War for the fuel tube, Robert's picture gave me an idea. Not sure if he re-made the hard tube along the lower side of the engine to the fuel pump, but it looked like it. I measured that hard tube at ~18" long. They sell 20" at the FLAPS, and maybe I can "hide" the extra length. Saves messing with a flare tool, and the tube is only $5.49+tax.

I will get the little hose made up locally. I asked the guy at the FLAPS, and he recommended the same place where I've had hoses made before.

Tube to be duplicated (top, hose broken off). Blue tape is clamp location. My copy below.

Trick to taking up the extra length - the out-of-plane bends.

The extra bends hide neatly next to the breather tube (breather tube is hanging low, out of position - clamp to oil pan not yet installed).

Back end of the tube - tube in lower left is the frame-mounted fuel line. Now just get a little jumper hose made up...

I still have the original tube/hose in case I'm ever inspired to have it duplicated (I didn't resort to my plan b - cut off the hose from the original tube/hose, cut off the nut from the frame-mounted tube and just slip some hose over both with worm clamps...)

Edited May 8, 2014 by Eric W
wording (see edit history)

[Eric W]

Got the answer to my question (see photos in post #64) - added the clamp to the fuel/breather tubes at the oil pan. Only took about 1/2 hour for that one bolt. Get the bolt through both ends of the clamp (battle #1), then get it straight enough to line up with anything (battle #2), then shift the clamp around until the bolt has a chance of finding the hole (battle #3), then crank on it until it catches the hole - not so tough, but working underneath the car I was about to give up. Anyway, here's my interpretation of how this is supposed to look:

Bottom looking up, oil pan at top of photo. Removed & cleaned off 1 oil pan bolt to match for size to get a replacement bolt at the clamp location.

Top looking down, front of car to the right.

Small gap to the frame-mounted tube. Put a small angle bend near the back of the engine-mounted tube to get the fitting off the breather tube. The original tube has this as well.

[Guest shadetree77]

Looking good. I need to do that to mine. Back when I did mine I had no idea how that was supposed to go. I've been putting it off because I think I'm going to have to make a new line. Bending and flaring line is not my idea of fun. Also, I'm kind of wary of taking out that single oil pan bolt. It would be my luck that the pan would start leaking at that bolt!

[Eric W]

When I asked at the FLAPS about a flare tool, they pointed me to a rack of pre-made tubes. For $5.49, it comes with both ends flared with the fittings all ready to go. Couple of minutes with the bender.

The story on getting the hose made locally isn't going so well. I went to the hose place that was recommended. They looked it over & concluded they didn't have that type of fitting. They recommended another auto parts supply place.

Those guys figured they could get something together, but it would require more parts than if I had end fittings just crimped on. So they recommended a 3rd place. This looked like a real old-school hose maker. No real office, just a garage bay next to a repair shop that was nothing but shelf after shelf of fittings. The guy wasn't there when I got there, but the shop next door said he'd be back. So I waited. Not too frustratingly long.

It was kind of entertaining to see a fool down the street playing with their race car in the parking lot. The guys at the shop I was waiting at figured the cops would arrive momentarily. The guy was doing burnouts & donuts, with much noise & smoke. The hose-maker guy showed up. I showed him what I had & he concluded that within his million vintage parts, he couldn't make this thing either. He recommended a simple part from the hardware store (1/4-20 NPT to 5/16 hose nipple). Sounds good, so I went over there & got 2 of those. I put the piece of 5/16 fuel line between them, then put this hose under the car.

Problem is, 1/4-20 NPT, though it threads onto a 5/16 double-flare nut (same or close-enough thread), it does NOT bottom out or seal to the double-flare. The threads engage and tighten, but the nut on the tube is just rattling around, nowhere close to being sealed.

I think it's back to the 2nd place's idea - 5/16 double flare union to a NPT-hose nipple part. Though this sounds like a round-about PITA way to get this done (since CARS, Inc sells a "jumper hose"), I don't want to go with their hose because if the length is wrong it either won't reach or it will be kinked.

So I'm going to give make-it-myself one more try.

[Eric W]

Got the short fuel hose made up w/ parts from the FLAPS. Will post pics & part numbers soon.

Tested the fuel system. Added 2 gallons of gas to the tank. Ran the electric pump. Sound changed (maybe pitch, not so much volume), so I figured that might mean fuel at the carb. It didn't. Ran pump some more. When fuel got to the carb & the float shut the flow, the pump got much quieter. Slight fuel seep at the carb, but no immediately obvious leaks in the line from tank to carb.

Tried starting (with some engine start spray). No good. Battery may have run down some.

Put battery back on charger.

Plan to clean the ignition points & double check that the plug wires are in the right order. I had pulled these off for cleaning, with everything labeled, but...

If that doesn't do it, going from low cost to more expensive would be: points, condenser, coil.

Then maybe plug wires & plugs.

Then rebuild starter. Any ideas?

[Eric W]

Hose details:

Edelmann #123500 5/16" Union (2)

Edelmann #821560 5/16" x 3/8" (Invert flare to hose nipple) (2)

Short length of 3/8" hose

2 worm clamps.

Top hose is the original broken off. It's 1/4" fuel line. Middle hose is made with the hardware-store 1/4-20 NPT to 5/16" hose fittings. These thread onto the reverse flare, but don't seal. The bottom hose is the one that works using 3/8" hose.

Installed looking up from below.

Looking straight up the side of the engine.

Looking down from the top.

[JohnD1956]

Is that fuel line attached to the road draft tube? No wonder straight 8's seem to have trouble with vapor lock.

[Eric W]

Yes, that tube location looks to be the most likely based on photos of another car and the shape of the clamp & tube found on my car. Not sure how much that contributes to a fuel vapor problem.

Over the past weekend:

- Found a short & open in the ignition coil. Got a new coil.

- Found the low side (switched) power through the points wasn't getting through. Cleaned points. Now power gets through to the coil.

- Changed the spark plugs. Thought that maybe for an instant there the engine cranked faster as though a cylinder or 2 fired. But still no start.

- Working on a bracket for the coil. Per what's on the engine, the coil lays down on its side. This can lead to uneven cooling due to the unfilled volume inside the coil allowing a hot area along the side of the coil. Bracket will mount coil terminals-up. Simple bolt-on bracket, quickly reversible if originality in this area is ever needed.

[Eric W]

No time to get farther with starting, but finished off & installed the coil bracket:

Baby grand piano, all aluminum. Engine attach holes on the right, new coil mount holes rotated 90 on the left.

1x1x.125 angle, riveted. The extra holes in the angle are from a previous project that I recycled the angle from. Though those look like "pop" rivets, they're not. They are 3/16" SST, and I'd challenge anyone to get them pulled using the usual puny pop rivet hand tool. I forget the rating, but it's hundreds of pounds each rivet in tension and shear - should be plenty for the coil.

The "blade" has to step out from the engine a little due to clips & nuts on the engine side cover.

Vertical-mounted coil.

It gets a little tight where the wires pass under the wire cover.

Ensure there is clearance between the 6v output from the distributor and the coil. That terminal on the distributor is switched ground (and not insulated), and the coil case is ground. Might not hurt anything if they touch, but the spark would stop.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Eric W
corrected wording (see edit history)

[Eric W]

Been out of town for the past week. But where there's internet... Can "get stuff" done on the car.

Scored this on eBay. I had pretty much given up with originality here & had collected dimensions to just get one made...

The other cooling related parts they were selling from this car looked really good (saw inside the t-stat housing, etc.).

[retirednow]

Glad you got it. I think I saw that one on e-bay ($145?), but didn't realize you were still looking for one

[Eric W]

Probably was the same one. Only original for '50-'52 I've seen in months on ebay. The auction ended at a little lower price than that, but with shipping, total was more. Seller said he'd had it pressure tested, and it didn't look like it had ever been worked on. (In my search, I've seen what a re-re-repaired one looks like.) So even if it's not the long-term answer, I'll have it for possible use as a pattern for a new one.

[Eric W]

Nope, it wasn't the same radiator. The $145 one looks worse than the one that I got. Just a note - I swapped out the sun visor pivot fittings. After watching many auctions go by where a pair of '50-'51-'52 sun visors with the ceiling fittings regularly get into crazy bidding wars for $80+, I won a no-other-bids deal for much less than that on a pair that had really poor looking visors, but the ceiling fittings were ok. On my car, the RH ceiling fitting had been partially reworked with a big bolt and a block of wood to hold the visor (kind-of functional), and the left one was cracked, so the visor hangs down where you need to see. The visor panels themselves are not great, but they'll do. A couple of minutes with a screwdriver and both visors are back tight up against the headliner.

[Eric W]

The radiator finally arrived. The seller did a really good job of packing. Protected the core both sides, built up a box so the bottom neck wouldn't get broken off... I cleaned up the side flanges yesterday (7 June) to minimize additional corrosion where it bolts to the support in the car.

Empty hole to fill:

Radiator as received, then side flange clean-up:

I missed getting a photo of the flanges cleaned to bare metal - I didn't just paint over rust...

Edited June 8, 2014 by Eric W
added wording (see edit history)

[Eric W]

In position. After 8 months of looking at and working on the car with nothing in front of the fan, this looks a little strange to me. But after chasing many leads and considering ways to get a new one made, I'm happy to have the exact part to just bolt in.

And I bought some more gas. Between evaporation and attempts at starting, the little bit in the tank is not able to be picked up by the electric pump. I disconnected the fuel line at the carb and pumped into a plastic jug - flow isn't good, so I suspect some of the old line sections may be gummed up. It sure ran out fast onto the floor when I cut into the line to add the electric pump, but that's not all of the old line in the system. I will open the line at different points and see where the slow-down happens.

The engine does catch fairly easily with squirting gas into the carb, so I think the ignition is at least OK now. When it catches, it overruns the starter right away, so continuing to crank the starter just allows the starter to spin real fast without being engaged to the flywheel. And the exhaust leak that was reported as one of, if not the reason the car was parked about 20 years ago - yes, that's for real. The gaskets between the head & manifold are no good.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Eric W
added wording (see edit history)

[Eric W]

Just had a potential eureka moment. If the manifold gasket is totally fallen apart / blown out on the exhaust side, what's to say it isn't about as bad on the intake side. If so, the engine sucks in too much air. True, there's still a fuel-delivery-from-the-tank problem, and I rebuilt the carb best I could (but took it off a non-running car, so have no idea - other than following the shop manual - that I got the carb back together and all working right) - but if the intake manifold-to-head has openings in the gasket - there's too much air going IN.

I have to replace the manifold gaskets anyway, so I'll focus on the gaskets & fuel to carb before attempting further starts.

[Buicknutty]

It's possible that the intake gaskets are good, as the exhaust side is under much more heat and pressure, and in my experience they are the first to go bad.

However, since you have to the one, it makes sense to do them both at the same time. When you take them off, you will be able to see where they have been sealing properly by the fit of the gasket to the surfaces.

Keith

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

The intake/exhaust have to be replaced as a set as they are made that way. If the '51 is like '50 and earlier, there are no gaskets from factory. Nothing on exhaust side, only flat thin discs for intake.

Ben

[Eric W]

Thanks Keith & Ben. What I was getting from the manual is yes, there are gaskets on the intake side, but nothing on the exhaust side but for a "special compound" that they don't specify. It looks to me like the "special compound" has become a 1/16" gap of clear air between the head and the manifold (after so many years). The repro gasket that I've found photos of from a couple of auto parts suppliers has the intake & exhaust gaskets all molded together as one piece (actually 3 sections, with 4 of the 12 ports per section). Not sure if that's what will really be in the box, but also from the manual it appears as if the intake & exhaust manifolds come off together, as they are joined at the heat box below the carb. That joint between the manifolds is supposed to come apart, but since the 2 manifolds are held to the head with the very same fasteners, I'll try taking it off as a unit.

[Pete O]

FYI, there is a particular sequence that you have to follow when installing and torquing the intake and exhaust manifolds that involve the bolts on the heat riser that hold the riser and intake to the exhaust. It's spelled out in the service manual. The purpose is to allow the intake and exhaust to align themselves to the head before you snug down the bolts that hold them together.

[Eric W]

Thanks Pete - when I get to that, I'll copy the applicable manual page and have it right there in the action. I went out there this AM to start the PB blasting, and the exhaust manifold is clearly about 1/16" off the head, with a few little spots of the original sealing stuff remaining. It's actually kind of funny to watch when I was running the starter and getting it to light off, puffs of smoke were coming straight up through that gap. Might not even have been enough pressure to send anything down the pipe...

[Buicknutty]

When all was new, and the manifolds and head were perfecly flat and true, they didn't need to use gaskets, but most replacement sets I've seen come with both intake and exhaust gaskets. The key is that since the exhaust runs so hot, the manifold needs to be able to "float" as it heats up and cools down, or else the manifold will crack. This can happen too if they are overtorqued when installing.

One other word of caution, on my '41 I had the devil of a time getting the intake and exhaust maniflds separated. One bolt broke, and I had to drill it out and re tap, then I used stainless steel bolts instead. Also, I took mine off as a unit, as you are planning to do, which made it easier to get them apart afterwards.

Keith

[Eric W]

Steps forward... steps back.

Got the radiator hoses. Looks nice to have the correct molded hoses on there.

Got the manifolds off the left side of the engine. Back half of the exhaust just fell off for me, so it wasn't quite so heavy to lift the rest out .

See my post in the forsale/wanted section...

That "attached thumbnail" is what happens when you load the wrong photo & delete it...

[Guest shadetree77]

Ouch!! That is physically painful to look at Eric. That was my worst nightmare when I took mine off. It's horrifying to actually see it in real life. So sorry for you. Best of luck on your search for a new one.

[Eric W]

Robert,

I'm just glad I found this before having it run more. Ben got back to me pretty quick with one of his spares. These may survive better than the radiators.

The radiator was an 8-month frustration that had me question whether this was really possible.

It was actually kind of funny - I pulled the studs out of the block because this is the way they were coming out - none of the nuts broke loose on the studs. I did a couple at the front, then a couple at the back. I noticed the gap to the block for the exhaust at the back was opening more than for the intake. So I did the remaining studs from back to front, and when I got the last one holding that section of exhaust, it just fell right down out the bottom of the car.

[Eric W]

Got the replacement manifold (thanks Ben!) and some related parts from Bob's. Bob's was out of stock on the nuts, so I'll try to find those around here. Looks like a real fine thread for the diameter... Separated the broken exhaust manifold from the intake just to see. 2 studs on the exhaust manifold broke off. The nut on the part I wanted to keep (the heat box under the intake manifold) did come off clean. So now I've got an extra intake manifold - but if it's typical to just break the studs on the exhaust to get them apart, I won't be using that anywhere soon.

I missed out on working the fuel delivery side this week due to the yard irrigation doing bad things (leaks).

[Eric W]

From the last post, got the needed nuts for the manifold. Got the manifold installed. Tried the oil & graphite mix per the manual, but I'm not sure that will do much more than release smoke with the gasket.

Disassembled the exhaust from the old manifold and cleaned up the flange on the new one.

Studs in place.

Weather while I was working - only been about 6 months since the last rain...

Gasket in place.

Manifold on.

Got the fuel issue pretty well figured out. The gas sitting in the line is still dissolving residue of the rotten gas, so I ran the electric pump until it pumped good-color gas out. Let it sit for a few minutes to dissolve some more residue out of the line. Then pumped some more darker gas until it flowed good again - it seems to be dissolving the "bad" stuff pretty quick. Then I hooked up the line, sprayed some gas in the carb, and it starts & runs! I ran it for maybe 1/2 minute. No coolant on board. Put a piece of panty hose on the inlet to the radiator (asked permission for that contribution), then filled the radiator. Video in next post, but it appears to run essentially indefinitely. The dashboard gauges show oil pressure, charge, coolant temperature, and fuel level - so they all seem to work.

It's not happy to run up in rpm - have to nurse it up, but once there, it goes along. I had rebuilt the carb with all new parts inside, so I'll check on what can be adjusted for acceleration. But start & idle is working.

[Eric W]

Video:

Engine start & run:

http://youtu.be/G-xmP7Mqut8

Exhaust view (short):

http://youtu.be/ODkIUn6ZeuA

[Buicknutty]

Sounding really good, Eric!

Keith

[JohnD1956]

Video:

Engine start & run:

http://youtu.be/G-xmP7Mqut8

YA HOO!!! Great video. It has to be very satisfying to get to this point. It's not so easy to kill a Buick!