Generation Gap??

[29 Chandler]

I'll have to agree with Dave@Moon. I was born in 1968 and watched my parents stuggle with their daily drivers made in the 70's and 80's. My first opportunity to drive a car I could rally get into was the family's 1971 Mercury Marquis. I learned a loy about how to maintain cars with that big old car. Then came my first car, a 1968 Mustang. It has been my daily driver for the past 17 years. (Currently resting while I give the enviroment a break while driving our new Honda Insight.)The Mustang got my feet wet in the hobby and my appetite whet for a more exotic car. But a few things had to happen first before we (my wife too)could take the plunge. One, had to pay off some bills. Two, get a house with room to house an old car. Three, have our son Chandler. Now that one, two, and three are done we really don't have a whole lot of time for our 1929 Chandler, but the way we look at it, at this point we still have a lot of time to play with it. <BR>I can't wait to see my son goto prom in the '29 Chandler that he helped to restore!<BR>Me driving ofcourse.

[ex98thdrill]

I don't know Dave. No maybe some people won't be restoring Ford Escorts, Chevy Citations, and Dodge Caravans, but you will still have the muscle car collectors with the Mustang GT's, Buick Grand Nationals, Chevy Iroc Z-28's, Monte Carlo SS, Pontiac Trans Ams, etc. and I'd be willing to bet that they'll be back. Of course you will still see someone restore something more "common" but I still think you'll see that stuff in the years to come.

[ronbarn]

29 Chandler, how do you like the new hybrid. I test drove the Insight but ended up with the Toyota Prius. We needed the backseat and larger trunk. It is really neat to drive a full Interstate speed witth the AC on and still get better than 45 mpg and get better than 50 around town.<P>Guess I'm glad I will never have to worry about restoring one 25 years from now. Talk about packing 10 pounds of it in a 2 pound bag. One look under the hood is enough to intimidate even the most serious amateur mechanic (and most professionals).<P>Sorry about getting off the topic a little.

[ply33]

Ron, I did not know you were another Prius owner. We have had one for over 1.5 years now and love it.

[29 Chandler]

Ron,<BR>We love the Insight. We bought primarily to comute back and forth to work. I love coming to a stop light and having the engine shut off! I get more looks in it then when I was driving my Mustang every day.<BR>I realy believe that these cars are the future. I take friends for a drive in it and they ask "Why don't more people know about this?!". With production at about 10,000 for three years the Insight is a real secret. I love watching the instant MPG guage at work. The car really is fun to drive. I love talking to people about it in the parking lot.

[Guest]

Insight and Pruis?? A little more input on the safety record of these "hybrid" cars please. The old chevy 3/4 ton 4x4 only gets 14 mpg, but it does gives somewhat of a feeling of safety. With some of the bonehead acts I see on the roads on a daily basis around here, I'll opt for the size factor. Don't get me wrong, if everyone on the road drove safely, I'd be more than willing to drive an environmentally friendly car. And yes, I do realize that having a heavy truck doesn't guarantee coming out unscathed in a crash.

[29 Chandler]

Anyone wnating to know more information about the Insight should check out InsightCentral.com<BR>This is a VERY informative site on these cars with a truly amazing interactive guide that will describe every component of the car simply by running your cursor over the picture. They also have information on actual crash results. Not surprising, but every crash involved a much larger vehicle. And every time the Insight occupant survived with little or no injury.<BR>Did I mention before that it has an aluminum body? This is a real afforadable exotic!

[Guest]

insightcentral.net thanx

[Dave@Moon]

O.K. Let's tie it together.<P>For the hybrid car owners out there: would you, could you seriously imagine a scratch restoration of your car say 45 years from now? They'll be as historically significant as any car one could name today, and they'll be important pieces of our automotive legacy, so they'll likely be some collectible value to them in the future. <P>Before you answer, look closely at the amount and complextiy of the electronic componentry (and the unique, proprietary nature of each individual piece thereof). Ron has already addressed that to some extent, but I'm looking for a more serious scrutiny of the likelyhood of a restoration being viable either physically or economically. <P>Also, just for a hoot. Go around the car, under the hood, and inside any other accessable places and give us a count of the number of lables/decals/printed markings/data plates/etc. each of which would need to be either individually restored or reproduced for <I>just that</I> particular model. <P>(Decals and lables may seem like a trivial point to follow, but I find it to be indicative of what cam be expected both in terms of the complexity of the project and the likelyhood that materials such as these will be available to future restorers of concours/senior level restoration. One could just as easily imagine trying to find and install a reproduction wire harness in such a car.)

[ply33]

There is no way that I could restore our Prius. But I think that would be true of any car that uses plastic parts and lots of electronics.<P>Maybe in 40 or 50 years there will be developed some low cost hobbiest way of making complicated plastic parts but I suspect not: I can't see how that could be done without some sort of moulds and/or dies that would be beyond the capabilities of a hobbiest.<P>And, working in the electronics industry, I can tell you that you will have to design you own replacement for every solid state device in your ECU(s): Even now a lot of electronic products are redesigned quite often not because the product does not work but simply because one or more components in it have been"end of lifed" by the semiconductor manufacturer. If you can keep any single product in production without redesign of the boards for more than a couple of years you are really lucky.<P>So, no, I don't think I could restore a Prius. Nor, for that matter, do I think I could restore my 1991 Jeep. Same reasons, even if it has fewer electronics.

[29 Chandler]

Our insight would have to be in the unrestored drivers class. I'll leave it to someone out there with enough space and cash to stowe away a few of these historically significant cars in a garage somewhere for future generations. But in the meantime I'll do the best I can to preserve our slice of history. It gets a car cover every day and parked out on the lot away from bigger cars. At least the aluminum body won't rust. <BR>I wonder if people 70-80 years ago were having this same discussion?

[Guest BillP]

I think they were! <BR>My next door neighbor had an "original, unrestored" stage coach in his barn that we used to look at as kids. <BR>I don't remember playing on it; not because we were especially respectful, I guess we just sensed that it was too special for kids to climb all over it.

[Guest]

Well I thought I should put in my two cents worth on this subject. I became involved with old cars in the mid 70's at the young age of 18. I was fortunate enough to have older members in our local club who supported me in my first restoration and did not put me off as a "young kid", but helped me and fed my interest. The car shows were "old car shows" then where one could expect to see origional or restored cars from decades past. Not as many street rods though. Then in the mid 80's or so I did not get the car out as much because of career and family committments.<P>Fast forward 15 years and I am now making the effort to get my 31'out again and taking it to shows. Nothing wrong with rods I guess, but where did all the "old cars" go at the local shows. Mostly modified and street rods! Did I miss something while I was gone??<BR>I still have folks looking at the car and asking questions, but with a different sort of perspective. "Boy you could easly drop a small block down there and have a good ride".<BR>If the showing of "origional" cars keep dwindling, will the current generation assume that a Model A came stock from the factory with power steering and a 351 Cleveland engine. Power steering first appeared on a 23' ford <BR>No answers here - just an observation.<BR>Happy motoring

[ronbarn]

Since I am relatively confident that I will not be around 45 years from now (how many active 107 year old restorers do you know) I guess I will just have to enjoy the Prius (which I have only owned for about four months) and the 45 to 55 mpg (highway and city respectively).<P>However, let me address a couple of the issues stated before:<P>Labels - no problem assuming you have some information on what it should have looked like. Simply print one out on your computer. Have this recently with excellent results and have seen some on the showfield. No problem with almost exact duplications. Low expense.<P>As for molded plastic parts - Cad/Cam with laser scanning is here now and will certainly be common in the future. Scan a part with laser, print out a design drawing in 3D, and the machine the mold. Although expensive today it will be cheap in the future.<P>Wiring will be complex, but doable<P>Electronic parts are a different matter. There will have to be a lot of form-fit-function replication using whatever technology is available at that time - not totally different from building a "coil-condensor" ignition into a magneto.<P>As for working in the tight space - hire a midget with skinny arms and long fingers.

[Dave@Moon]

Ron,<P>I agree with you on the plastic parts for future restorations, but I think you're downplaying to complexity of the labels/decals and wiring harnesses of today's cars. <P>If you think someone will be restoring your car in 2050, perhaps you may want to carefully remove and make scans of each of those pieces (and 200 pieces would be a good + or - number), inventory them,and make a detailed chart of their locations now. I doubt even Toyota could today provide you the information to do this. Think you'll be able to do that with the worn, filthy remnants you'll have in 2050?<P>Also, how many connectors are on your wiring harness? Think you could reproduce it without errors? Don't mess any connections up, it'll void your warrantee! <P>Again, these are silly points to fret over, but they're indicative of how much complexity our descendants will have to deal with.<P>P.S. Be careful, don't incur the wrath of Peter. I believe they prefer to be called "vertically challenged".

[ply33]

I am not sure I'd fret too much with the complexity of the wiring: I have the Prius service manual and the diagrams there are not all that much different than for any other car. A few more computers than my older car but what the heck. All cars are going that way.<P>What I'd fret about (I should put this in present tense) is the 300 VDC cables. You could do serious damage to yourself if you are not careful there. I have a healthy respect for any cable on the car that is orange. Kinda like the respect I have for deadly snakes. I leave them alone and they leave me alone.

[Guest]

And what gives anybody the idea that in 2045 any of the judges will know what is right and what is wrong on a 2000 car. Hell, I'm not sure too many of us today know what is right and wrong on a 1955 car and probably have little or no idea what is correct on a 1910 car. At best, most of us operate on the "If it looks right, it probably is" concept on cars of which we are not experts.<P>We do our best, and that is all anybody has a right to expect. After all, we are not exactly highly compensated professionals. ~ hvs