'39 Buick Trippe lights...overheating???

[airbrushguy]

Finished the Buick and it looks/rides great, but on it's maiden voyage it had major overheating problems.

Made fan shroud, new thermostat, hoses etc. It has a new radiator and all possible weak links.

Then, out of nowhere came this apparition....maybe those big beautiful Trippe driving lights are at the root of my problem.

Maybe they're blocking more of the little airflow my 1939 grille can supply. I'm going to take it out with the new improvements on it, but if it still overheats, I'm going to remove those lights and see if there's a difference.

Does anyone have these lights on their '39, if so, where did you locate them so as not to interfere with air-flow?

Thanks

[smithbrother]

If they are directly in front of the side wings of the grill, I would say they COULD be a portion of your problem. I would be very surprised it they are the CORE of your problem.

Not that my experience yesterday has anything to do with your issues, but driving home from South Bend BCA show I notice that if I was running in a pack of cars, with car in front of me close enough that I could read the Lic plate, that my temp was appox 5 degrees hotter than if I backed off so CLEAN air was going into my radiator. My car never gets to hot, but for the fun of it, I tested this several times, and each time temp climbed if I was TAILGATING so to speak. This shouldn't surprise anyone, Nascar races point this out often.

It is possible that the BIG lights are forming a dam and a vacuum behind such. I wouldn't think such would be the case in city driving though, highway speeds seems more likely, IMO.

I wish you well, can't wait to learn what you find is the cause....

Dale in Indy

[60FlatTop]

"Made fan shroud"? What's that mean?

Bernie

[smithbrother]

Maybe he is trying to assure that the fan pulls as much of the air THROUGH the radiator, rather from sides, etc.

We all know that blocking off all open spaces beside the radiator helps force outside air into the radiator for cooling purposes. No secret there.

That's my limited experience.

I am NOT speaking for him though........

Dale in Indy

[airbrushguy]

Maybe he is trying to assure that the fan pulls as much of the air THROUGH the radiator, rather from sides, etc.

We all know that blocking off all open spaces beside the radiator helps force outside air into the radiator for cooling purposes. No secret there.

That's my limited experience.

I am NOT speaking for him though........

Dale in Indy

yes, made shroud around fan so air is pulled through entire radiator.

[danhar1960]

Do you have the early or later type grill ?? The later type had less vertical bars and allowed greater air flow.

How about a few pics now she's finished.

Danny

[60FlatTop]

I thought you might have made a fan shroud. Is the engine the original equipment. And have you taken the fan shroud out to try it? I saw a post that said you were going for a Walker radiator. How faithful was that to the original configuration?

Don't trust anything you didn't do yourself. If the engine was rebuilt in a shop and Bobo (Read A Dissertation on Roast Pig by Charles Lamb to find out about him) was the helper, he could have made a water outlet gasket and never cut out the middle. That really happened.

A fan shroud reduces the effective area of the air flow at the fan and requires a higher velocity to maintain the volume and the shroud creates a pressure drop. Propeller fan characteristics are based on high volume and very low static pressure. The shroud may be creating a pressure drop and stalling the fan air flow. I know you see things like that made. You need to follow the fan laws or Mother Nature gets PO'ed. I'd take the shroud out first and then start digging in.

Bernie

[Guest Grant Magrath]

I agree with Bernie. Pull the shroud and see if it needs air flowing through as per original.

Cheers

Grant

[airbrushguy]

Fan shroud was made after encountering overheating, not tested yet...probably tomorrow or Wed. Car ran hot without shroud.

[Guest Grant Magrath]

The engine's freshly rebuilt? That could contribute for a while. How's the timing? That's another thing to look at. Thermostat all good? I prefer 160* ones myself here in NZ. If the engine's had a bit of use before installing it, is it possible the new radiator has blocked up? 9 out of 10 overheating issues are blocked radiators. BTW, those driving lights look fantastic!

Cheers

Grant

[danhar1960]

Car looks good ABG.

Danny

[Anzac Buick64]

Great looking Car. I think 60Flat Top has nailed the issue. The assumption that the car was overheating and this was fixed by the shroud installation and therefore the shroud solved the problem is not necessary a logical process. If you read the history of the 39s when new they had lots of teething problems but over heating was not one of them. By 39 Buick had used the big eight for at least 8 years and they new how to cool them. If they had needed a shroud when new then Buick engineers would have used them and they new plenty about fans/propellers and air flow in the the 1930s due to the nascent aviation industry. I think there is something else going on and the shroud managed to mask the problem for a while. New engines that are fully rebuilt will run a little hotter and as Grant says engine timing being out will also run it hotter. I think that the problem is something fundamental that was not done or overlooked at the time of the rebuild. eg gasket not made properly, faulty thermostat, blockage in the radiator or water channels in the block from some spilt sealant. It will turn out to be something really simple and the big lovely looking lights will not be the problem. I work in my line of work (which requires critical decisions and actions for safety) on the principle of of TNB. Which is "Trust No B@$*&!d" BOBO will have been at work in your cars cooling system. Great looking car and a wonderful resto of the vehicle. I join Danny in asking for more photos.

Kind regards

Andrew

[trp3141592]

Hi,

1) Do you hear pinging upon acceleration? If so, maybe you have no vacuum advance happening. I suggest applying vacuum to the vacuum advance (Use that MityMate brake bleeder pump that you bought and wish you hadn't--this is the only thing that damn tool is good for) and see if it holds vacuum or not. If the vacuum advance is leaking, send it to Terrill Machine for rebuilding or buy a newly-manufactured one. Also be sure that that distributor plate is able to move on its three ball bearings. The one in my LaSalle was frozen up solid, and boy howdy did that car ping and overheat!

2) Did you have the water pump rebuilt? I did on the same car, and I found when it quickly became hot enough to bake bricks that the press-on impeller was not tight enough to the shaft of the pump. The shaft was simply spinning in the impeller. Disassembly and reassembly with a pin and LokTite-Red on the shaft/impeller interface took care of the problem.

Let us know what you find!

--Tom

[RDMSTER]

Re the radiator shroud question: In the 1940 Buick Parts And Service Bulletins, on pg. 39 they mention that re the '39 models " there have been some complaints of engines over-heating at extremely low car speed...., the same condition can occur when bringing the engine to idle speed too quickly after a high speed run ". The factory bulletin goes on to address the availability of a retrofit fan shroud ( different part number for series 40 and series 80/90 fan shroud- but no shroud was recommended for the 60 series ). Photos of the factory shroud are provided. Also recommended was adding a quarter of an inch to the pitch of the fan ( all except 40 series ) as well as adding a felt strip between the top of the radiator and the radiator shell. Again, these fixes were only to address low speed or at idle overheating. As an aside, my '39 model 81-c has the large Trippes in the location shown in the photo and it runs cool ( knock on wood ).

[danhar1960]

RDMSTER

Having a '39 81 makes you a prime candidate to be a "'39 Buick Team Member".

Come on mate, join the gang.

I have the fan shroud you speak of around here some where for my '39 40.

There was also a sheet-metal piece that sat above the radiator too to stop air being drawn over the top.

Danny

[FLYER15015]

Just to chime in here, since Grant and Danny's green lights are not on, I also used the "felt" trick to block the top off AND I made a small plate to block off the bottom of the radiator. Real easy to do since there was a partial down there already.

Year before last I "repitched" my funky looking 4 bladed, to no avail. I finally bought a Hayden 6 blade flex fan, cut 1/2" off the back of the blades to clear the gen pully, and have been happy with it. I only need the pancake electric fan on the very hottest days, and of course in parades..........

And check out where my Trippe Seniors are located.

Mike in Colorado

Edited July 28, 2013 by FLYER15015 (see edit history)

[airbrushguy]

And check out where my Trippe Seniors are located.

Mike in Colorado

Good point Mike, your lights are in a position that looks as if they would surely block more than mine. If your's work, mine certainly should and not be any cause of overheating.

Thanks

[FLYER15015]

Airbrush,

There has been a lot of discussion regarding the '39's overheating compared to other years given the short and thin design of the grille.

Compared to the '37-'38's tall opening, or the '40-'41's gaping yaw, the '39 starts out at a disadvantage, so a couple of ideas to consider.

1. Boil the radiator

2. Pull the freeze plugs and flush the block

3. Install a "pancake" pusher fan on a toggle switch.

4. Baffel the top and bottom of the radiator to concentrate the airflow.

5. And if all these fail, cock those trippes so they shine in the opposite lane, and hopefully "duct / deflect" more air into that itty bitty grille. You know I'm grasping at straws with this one.

Mike in Colorado

[smithbrother]

I'm sure you KNOW this, but in case. INSTALL A RELAY WHEN INSTALLING A FAN AND SWITCH.

Dale in Indy

[FLYER15015]

I'm sure you KNOW this, but in case. INSTALL A RELAY WHEN INSTALLING A FAN AND SWITCH.

Dale in Indy

Ooooops,

I hot wired mine straight to the battery, with a fuse in the line of course. Sure helps cool her down after shutting off the motor.

Mike in Colorado

[smithbrother]

Fans pull lots of current, lots of fires have been started without a relay.

(PAINLESS WIRING) out of Texas is one source.

Dale in Indy

[Dynaflash8]

If the engine was just rebuilt, it may be still tight and running a little hot. I have the big, beautiful Trippe lights on my '39 convertible sedan, and they do not cause a problem. You have to mount them as far to the outside that you can to clear as much of the grill as possible. Also, you may have rust inside of the block or your mechanic could have used the wrong head gasket and covered one of the flow holes. It is an ongoing problem with the '39. Also a NOS thermostat may not be working or the built in thermostat in the thermostat housing may not be working. Some people have simply removed the built-in thermostat but I've just cleaned and rebuilt them. If your car is a 60-80-90 model you can use a 1948-52 thermostat housing and it would have the built in thermostat, simply a hole.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Airbrushguy, please forgive me if it seems like I'm treating you like an idiot here, but all freshly rebuilt engines give off frighteningly awful "hot" smells until they finally burn off oily finger prints on the manifold and the fresh paint cures from the heat. Also, temp gauges and their sending units can be faulty. Are you sure that actual water temp is above what it should be and you're not going by perception?

[airbrushguy]

Airbrushguy, please forgive me if it seems like I'm treating you like an idiot here, but all freshly rebuilt engines give off frighteningly awful "hot" smells until they finally burn off oily finger prints on the manifold and the fresh paint cures from the heat. Also, temp gauges and their sending units can be faulty. Are you sure that actual water temp is above what it should be and you're not going by perception?

Bought a laser temp indicator....temp not as bad as thought....gauge was off.

Thanks everyone

[1939_Buick]

Bought a laser temp indicator....temp not as bad as thought....gauge was off.

Thanks everyone

A temperature probe is in the water. A laser temperature indicator measures the metal surface temperature. Even with water at ~180°F the metal temperaure will be less. Air flow over the metal makes it cooler (surface heat transfer co-efficient)