Greatest Threat to the Vintage Car Hobby

[Bhigdog]

Just a preemptive strike here. I can actually feel the moderators (some more than others) squirming in their swivel chairs as they read posts and comments that are actually INTERESTING rather than the same dumb question being asked for the 500th time.

So Mr. Moderator(s) my advice is this. Give the thread it's head. If it's a bit edgy from time to time so what, as long as the posts are basically respectful. And they have been.

This thread like every other one before it will burn itself out soon enough with out over zealous hand wringing over someone's delicate feelings...............Bob

[nickelroadster]

I have a solution to what some people think are overestored cars. Drive them. Pretty soon you won't be able to tell the difference.

[F&J]

Back on topic

My son says only a couple of schoolmates had any interest in older cars (like muscle cars), and....those few only knew about Camaro and Mustangs, because those brand cars were made throughout their short lifespan. He says that they would have no interest in a Roadrunner or a GTO, as they can't relate to those long ago cars.

When we boomers were kids in the old non tech world, Saturday morning was for TV, and the other days we built car models, or hoped we could afford the new slot cars. We were bombarded by the car culture lifestyle, not by jetliners and videos and computers.

How can a person relate to something that they did not grow up with? The hobby is changing really fast as the eldest boomers are only a few years from 70 yrs old. The not so rare, no so exotic as some full classics, will just keep dropping in value, as they won't be on any buyers wish list. The older people won't buy them because they have enough, and may even be trying to downsize themselves.

One new trend I see that is happening, is that older car guys are now selling off before they pass away. I think they know prices are dropping on many prewar cars, and they also don't want to leave a burden of stuff behind for their families. Especially project cars in same ownership for decades, many are now up for sale, but with very few serious buyers.

Kick and scream if you insist, but big changes are coming. There simply will be a point where the available cars will very dramatically outnumber the dwindling handful of actual buyers.

(not talking about ACD, 57 chev conv's or those types)

..and not to go to off topic, but the economy the way it is now, is rapidly affecting the situation.

[Guest Skyking]

In my neck of the woods I see a lot of young people getting into the hobby. These are couples with small children. Even the wife's are involved. I believe as long as there are car shows and cruise nights, the hobby will always be active.

[Paul Dobbin]

I've always loved old cars, but when I bought one and restored it (40 years ago) I joined the local Model A Club, (At age 27) even though I had a 34 Ford V8. I was the youngest member when I joined. I think I still am. That does not bother me because I've come to know so many wonderful people. If a few younger ones have joined, I didn't care. We all have a common interest. Now for those who want to write in and say they're younger, that's Ok, just keep bringing your kids and grandkids along on tours and we'll fill iur ranks with younger people who developed a love of antique cars the old fashioned way, by riding in them.

[JV Puleo]

I think that the question we should be asking ourselves is "how does old car collecting look to people who aren't involved in it." That was the intended point of my earlier post. Personally, I couldn't care less if someone wants to over-restore their car and, having no interest at all in judging, I'm not even concerned if the over-the-top restorations effect that aspect of the hobby. But, to someone on the outside looking in and who does have the interest and wherewithal to purchase and restore an early car (and I'm thinking in the context of pre-1930), the extravagant emphasis on cosmetic restoration, points judging and wildly inflated "values" could easily be discouraging.

Some time ago, we had a thread started by someone looking for a 6-cylinder brass car. This generated a discussion on the relative prices of large and small brass cars... The opinions offered were genuine and well intentioned and I mean no criticism of those who offered them, but there are always alternatives. My own car is a 1910 35HP Mitchell and, had I read that thread before buying it, I might well have given up before I started. (Having a 45-year background in both cars and antique arms collecting kept me from taking the most dire estimates too seriously). I particularly like F&J's comment above regarding the number of project cars available. My Mitchell is someone's uncompleted project. Its missing quite a few parts and when its finally done I will have made about 30% of the car. It will never qualify for judging under AACA rules but it should be a very roadworthy and attractive brass car... In fact, my goal is to make a 1910 car that looks like it could have looked in 1914, having been well taken care of and "improved" a bit by its owner.

In the past year I've been approached by two would-be collectors, one in his late 20s and the other in his 50s. Both are competent to undertake a serious restoration and both were shocked to learn that there were potentially very good buys out there for someone who was prepared to put imagination and effort into restoring them. I know the the people I'm referring to through our shared interest in antique machine tools... some of them could just about build an engine from scratch, but I've never heard anyone say "gee, I'd like to do competitive cosmetic restoration."

Edited July 24, 2013 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Guest]

The immediate threat which eliminates brain washing or getting a younger generation involved is; Type of fuel, unreasonable car legislation, parts supply and the biggest problem of all.......A government with a sagging no growth economy which will collapse by it's own weight of seventeen Trillion in debt. It isn't a question if, but a question of when if we don't do something.

[The Continental]

Speaking from the youth side I'll give my viewpoint. There are multiple factors that threaten the hobby including cost (which has risen with cost of materials, cost of popular cars, insurance, etc), youth involvement (the interest doesn't compare to previous generations, cost, limited quality cars grown up with, lack of shop programs in school, attention towards technology, environmental conscious, etc), government regulation (cost of gas, quality of gas, insurance, EPA, etc), decrease in future collectible cars(styling, performance, and quality starting going down in the 70s), etc.

As far as people that collect cars that predate them, how many of them grew up with car enthusiasts or have some sort of early fond memories of classics? Not to mention the excellent styling through the 30s-60s. Most young car guys now atleast like 60s performance cars.

The entry level car isn't as common as it used to be. Look at what one paycheck will buy today versus in the 60s or 70s.

[JV Puleo]

As far as people that collect cars that predate them, how many of them grew up with car enthusiasts or have some sort of early fond memories of classics?

I'm not sure I understand this? Are you saying that only people with some special exposure to older cars are likely to be interested in them? I find that hard to believe. In my regular life I am the technical editor of a collecting magazine. 99.9% of the material we deal with pre-dates the people that collect it, often by centuries, not decades. I can't see why car collecting is any different - or will be any different in the future. In the aftermath of the Civil War there were many veterans who collected the artifacts of that war. Every one of them is long gone now, but people are still collecting Civil War material. The same can be said for Georgian silver, 17th century pottery, paintings... in fact, car collecting may be the only major field where youthful exposure is considered a factor and, even at that, I have only met a handful of 2nd generation collectors.

It is certainly fair to suggest that familiarity breeds interest but this is a "chicken-and-egg" question. Which comes first. Most seem to be presuming that familiarity comes first when it may just as often be the other way around, that interest breeds familiarity. That is certainly the way it worked for me, having absolutely zero exposure to antique cars and living in a family where that interest was considered a huge waste of time if not actually crazy. This is why I'm concerned about how people who may be interested, but who have no active exposure, perceive us. I can only speak for myself in this, but I do not find competition restoration attractive at all and wonder if that emphasis is doing us any long-term good.

[Matt Harwood]

This may seem odd coming from a dealer, but I think one thing that is eroding the hobby from within is money and the endless push to turn old cars into profit centers. Even the most savvy of collectors watches the market and counts his pennies on a car, and I honestly think that's a mistake for most of us. Sure, nobody wants to grossly over-pay for their car, but day-in and day-out, I have conversations that go exactly the same way and I get the same questions over and over: "I saw another one sell on TV for $XXX" or "I don't think I can get my money out of it when I sell it since I have to put $XXX into it" and things like that. As a group, we seem to have lost sight of this as a hobby and instead treat our old cars as investments. I bought my 1929 Cadillac to enjoy, I'm VERY upside-down on it today, and I simply don't care! I'm having too much fun with it to worry about how much cash I can pull out of it. If I do sell it, I'll take the loss and chalk it up to the years of fun I had with the car. You don't expect to make a profit from your vacations, do you? This is about FUN, remember? This particular brand of fun costs money.

New people to the hobby only see the TV shows and the hype about money, money, money and figure that the only cars they should be buying are investment-grade, matching-numbers cars with full paperwork, and all of those cost more than $50,000 (sometimes lots more). Hell, I get people asking me about garden-variety '40s cars and whether they're "matching numbers" and if I have ownership history back to new. Well, no, in 99% of the cases, such things don't exist. So potential new hobbyists are dissuaded even before they start, figuring that it's perfection and pedigree or nothing because anything less than a documented, numbers-matching car will be worthless moments after they buy it.

Sure, none of us likes to over-pay for a hobby car, but what if we played golf instead of playing with old cars? We'd invest thousands and have exactly what to show for it? Zero, zip, nada, zilch! So why do we feel that the only way we can own an old car is if it appreciates every year or we get a deal that will make us some money on the back side? Isn't that kind of thinking what killed the entire housing industry and tanked the economy? What happened to just buying a car you love and enjoying it, costs be damned? I'm not talking about throwing money away, but hell, I know one guy that has been looking for a specific car for 5 or 6 years (not an expensive or rare one, either) and keeps turning them away because they're just not quite the ideal combination of perfection and cheap. So he just sits on the sidelines wishing instead of coughing up the extra $1000-2000 to get a good car and start having fun. All because he's paranoid about "losing money" when the time comes to sell (not that he's ever planning on it, but you know, "just in case, someday, I might want to sell it").

I do this for a living and I don't think profit is a crime. But it's also not the point of this hobby, and everyone seems to have forgotten how to simply have fun with an old car. We're all junior bankers now. That makes me very sad.

Young people aren't into it because they just don't know what it's like to have fun with an old car. How many of us truly drive our cars without a thought about their value? That puts a hell of a damper on things, don't you think?

[1935Packard]

I think the greatest threat to the classic car hobby is just the natural life cycle of new technologies. When technologies are introduced, the first stage is about functionality: The major goal is just for the product to work, and style is secondary. The second stage is about design: Products try to differentiate themselves through more stylish design and more visually attractive features. By the third stage, the product has become a commodity. The products are just widgets, and there isn't much difference among them.

With cars, the first stage (functionality) was until around 1930. The second stage (design) was from around 1930 to around 1970; in those days, a tremendous amount of attention and corporate resources went into automobile styling. The third stage (commodity) began after 1970, and we see it today in the views among many (especially those younger) that a car is just a car. There will always be some people who like all stages of the product. But as soon as a product gets to the commodity stage, its broad appeal will naturally diminish somewhat: People just don't get all that excited about commodities.

Edited July 24, 2013 by 1935Packard (see edit history)

[Guest Classic50s]

There are many good points being made. I agree with many of them yet I feel that most of the problem comes from the point of view of how much it CAN cost. Heck you can buy a older restored car for a fraction of what it would cost to restore. Alot of people my age see the high cost from auctions and shows talking about spending 50-100 grand to restore a car and think that's how much it costs. Its always advertised of how much CAN be spend and that is what people remember. Most people who make this hobby are every day people restoring cars in their garages yet its the big name collectors who tend to get the air time to talk about how much they have invested so it comes across as a hobby for the rich and few. I know my project won't be Pebble Beach quality and that's ok with me. I just want it to be a as new car with a few upgrades yet I can't get it out of my head that my car will be judged against those flawless cars by everyday people. They see the shows: Barrett Jackson, Pebble Beach, Hershey, etc and compare your garage restoration to these $100,000+ restorations. That I think keeps people away so they don't get humiliated although they spent alot of time and money to have a car they can be happy with. Even if it turned out perfect in the owners eye people will still be comparing it to concourse quality.

[JV Puleo]

Exactly!

[TexRiv_63]

There are many good points being made. I agree with many of them yet I feel that most of the problem comes from the point of view of how much it CAN cost. Heck you can buy a older restored car for a fraction of what it would cost to restore. Alot of people my age see the high cost from auctions and shows talking about spending 50-100 grand to restore a car and think that's how much it costs. Its always advertised of how much CAN be spend and that is what people remember. Most people who make this hobby are every day people restoring cars in their garages yet its the big name collectors who tend to get the air time to talk about how much they have invested so it comes across as a hobby for the rich and few. I know my project won't be Pebble Beach quality and that's ok with me. I just want it to be a as new car with a few upgrades yet I can't get it out of my head that my car will be judged against those flawless cars by everyday people. They see the shows: Barrett Jackson, Pebble Beach, Hershey, etc and compare your garage restoration to these $100,000+ restorations. That I think keeps people away so they don't get humiliated although they spent alot of time and money to have a car they can be happy with. Even if it turned out perfect in the owners eye people will still be comparing it to concourse quality.

This has been a good discussion except for the inevitable political BS and your summation above is very much to the point. I think there are two parts to the car hobby - the "Vintage Car Club and Show" group and the "Vintage Car Build and Drive" group. The first group has created the high expectations for cars we have today along with a massive and expensive support industry which needs ever increasing car values to sustain growth. The second group are the folks who have always been around loving cars, doing their own work and driving what they create. These two groups need each other and intermingle but the first group has made it very difficult for the second group to afford it's passion. I think you can guess which group I'm in, and I honestly don't know how (or if) the problem can be solved.

[Dave@Moon]

I'm not sure I understand this? Are you saying that only people with some special exposure to older cars are likely to be interested in them? I find that hard to believe. In my regular life I am the technical editor of a collecting magazine. 99.9% of the material we deal with pre-dates the people that collect it, often by centuries, not decades. I can't see why car collecting is any different - or will be any different in the future. In the aftermath of the Civil War there were many veterans who collected the artifacts of that war. Every one of them is long gone now, but people are still collecting Civil War material. The same can be said for Georgian silver, 17th century pottery, paintings... in fact, car collecting may be the only major field where youthful exposure is considered a factor and, even at that, I have only met a handful of 2nd generation collectors.

It is certainly fair to suggest that familiarity breeds interest but this is a "chicken-and-egg" question. Which comes first. Most seem to be presuming that familiarity comes first when it may just as often be the other way around, that interest breeds familiarity. That is certainly the way it worked for me, having absolutely zero exposure to antique cars and living in a family where that interest was considered a huge waste of time if not actually crazy. This is why I'm concerned about how people who may be interested, but who have no active exposure, perceive us. I can only speak for myself in this, but I do not find competition restoration attractive at all and wonder if that emphasis is doing us any long-term good.

My experience is exactly the same. I was in high school before I even met people who liked older cars and enjoyed working on them, and in my 30s before I could afford my first British sports car and began meeting people of that persuasion (which was always my primary interest). None of my friends from before I was 30 could tell an MG from a Fiat, and unless one somehow did a 12 sec. 1/4 mile none of them would look at one anyway. Meanwhile I was sketching the MGA I wanted (a new TR6 was too much to hope for) in 6th grade.

I honestly cannot tell you where that interest came from, except maybe from Matchboxes and building models as a kid. It certainly was not encouraged by anyone.

[Dave@Moon]

People just don't get all that excited about commodities.

,,,until they are gone. Have you tried to buy a good used component stereo lately, especially a turntable for vinyl records? Most sell for at least their cost new, and (if of a popular brand like Pioneer, Sansui, Dual, Technics, etc.) usually a good bit more...even though they are for the most part only 20-30 years out of production and hardly "antiques" by any definition. Any quality component made between (roughly) 1965 and 1990 is a serious collectors item, simply because you just can't go the Best Buy and get one any more (certainly not one of the same configuration and quality). They make the same music you can get from an iPod hooked to an iHome device, but people are literally snapping up whatever they can to save these devices so they can enjoy music the old way.

Yes, ethanol and hybrids and electrics and biofuels and whatever's next are the beginning of the end of simple internal combustion automobiles. That is going to make driving anything that you have to turn a key to start an interesting experience soon, and the limitations presented by that experience will be part of it's appeal as much as an occasional scratch tick when listening to The White Album makes for a more appealing experience.

So stop pretending progress is a threat to the vintage car hobby. It isn't. In fact it's probably our best friend.

[ddavidv]

I think the greatest threat to the classic car hobby is just the natural life cycle of new technologies. When technologies are introduced, the first stage is about functionality: The major goal is just for the product to work, and style is secondary. The second stage is about design: Products try to differentiate themselves through more stylish design and more visually attractive features. By the third stage, the product has become a commodity. The products are just widgets, and there isn't much difference among them.

With cars, the first stage (functionality) was until around 1930. The second stage (design) was from around 1930 to around 1970; in those days, a tremendous amount of attention and corporate resources went into automobile styling. The third stage (commodity) began after 1970, and we see it today in the views among many (especially those younger) that a car is just a car. There will always be some people who like all stages of the product. But as soon as a product gets to the commodity stage, its broad appeal will naturally diminish somewhat: People just don't get all that excited about commodities.

I think the "problem" has many causes, but this is definitely one of them. I was thinking about this quite a bit recently. Styling is, for the most part, dead. The only cars that turn my head are the 'retro' styled Mustangs and Challengers. Most everything else looks like a bar of soap. Saw a Bentley today; my reaction was "meh". Didn't do a thing for me. I see a Cadillac CTS-V and think, "What a great car. If only it looked better." Cars have truly become appliances, and this contributes to youngsters disinterest in cars and driving. Nothing about most of these cars inspires any passion.

New and exciting is in electronics, not in vehicles. The only thing that wows most kids (and, frankly, most consumers) is how many electronic gizmos a car has in it. I find things like the Ford Sync system dramatically distracting from the joy of driving. I've had various and varied company cars over the last 20 years and all have been very capable vehicles, but have offered little in the 'driving joy' department.

Some youth do like and appreciate history, and thus will have a tendency to be interested in weird old cars. I don't think growing up with them or not is as big a factor as some may think. I would love a Model T, and my parents weren't even born when they came out (though Dad did buy a vast number of them as jalopies for $25 a pop when he was a teen). I don't have one, though, because it is a horribly impractical car for even occasional use. It would maybe be a 5th or 6th collector car, if I had room, but not my primary. I want to be able to drive to events at traffic speeds, and pre-war cars generally aren't up to the task.

Cost can be a factor, but I don't think it's as big of a deterrent as many believe. There are plenty of cars out there that are nice driver quality or better for $5000-$7000, and some really nice stuff up around $10,000. They aren't the most popular, and may be a 4 door instead of a 2 door, but they exist. For someone who just wants an old car (or truck), they can be had. But if they want a Hemi Challenger or E Type Jaguar, well...I'm almost 50, and they are still just dreams to me too.

I can see what some of the problems are, but I don't have the solutions. I think the biggest thing we, as owners, can do is get our cars out there to be seen. No kid is going to be fascinated by a car that's hidden in your garage. The other thing I try to do is when these guys buy old vehicles is try to convince them NOT to dive into a complete teardown/restoration. I encourage them to just fix what's broken and drive it for awhile. With a little salesmanship they eventually see the wisdom of doing that, and often wind up just doing a rolling restoration which allows them to enjoy it more than work on it. Without growing up working on machinery like a lot of us did, keeping them from jumping in over their heads right off the bat is a blessing.

[JV Puleo]

My experience is exactly the same. I was in high school before I even met people who liked older cars and enjoyed working on them...

I also was in high school before I ever met anyone who was interested in old cars... a pair of brothers actually. We're still friends today but none of our neighbors and only a few of our acquaintances share that interest. The car people we know, we met AFTER we started to get involved. But, when I was about 12 in was in the city with my grandmother and I bought an English book titled "Veteran and Vintage Cars" on the remainder table at a big department store while my grandmother was shopping. I think I paid $1.00 for it and I've been hooked on brass cars ever since. I only did 20s cars when I was younger because they were cheaper... and (I thought) more practical. I still find it hard to think of anything made after about 1930 as really being old and have zero interest in the muscle cars of my HS years in the late 60s or anything post-WWII for that matter.

[CarNucopia]

The biggest threat is the aging demographic of the car-guy. I once heard Al Gore described as "An old person's idea of what a young person is". I think that perspective can be applied to our view of the hobby. We want people two or three generations younger then us to be attracted to the same things that turned us into gear-heads. To expect their influences, experiences and culture to lead them to the same taste in cars (or anything else) just seems silly. I'm glad the OP likes old cars and I do think that makes him unique among his peers. It's admirable that he follows his passions and not the crowd. But for him and the rest of us, we need to accept we are part of a minority that is shrinking.

[Paul Dobbin]

Well said Matt.

"So he just sits on the sidelines wishing instead of coughing up the extra $1000-2000 to get a good car and start having fun. All because he's paranoid about "losing money" when the time comes to sell (not that he's ever planning on it, but you know, "just in case, someday, I might want to sell it").

Life is full of things we do for pleasure, not investments. Example, vacations, marriage, golf, bowling, tennis, books & RV's etc.,etc.

If we always way financial return before we participate, we won't enjoy life at all. Our RV will some day be sold at close a 100% loss,

so will our vacation pictures, best seller books, tennis rackets, greens fee's receipts and even my left over E Ticket to Disney World.

We enjoyed all of it and about the only thing now that may give a partial return of capital are our antique cars (Subject to future changes in the market) But, we've had a good time and that's priceless.

[Guest 36chev]

For whatever limited value--my two cents worth: Buick64C I think is close to the matter. From working with younger people at a college and having teenage relatives, it seems that old cars are not "cool." The cool factor and peer pressure seem to be omnipresent. SUVs and import cars are cool. Hotrods can be cool (although the concept of hotrod/modified and restored cars are often blurred in general use). But old cars that do not have sparkling peformance or appearance, are not an SUV, or have the common characteristics shared by new cars, are not appealing to the younger crowd I encounter.

When I was a kid, antique cars were somewhat more "cool." Matchbox of Yesteryear cars were collected, models of old cars were popular and sold in department stores, and the hotrod craze had not reached the peak it has today.

And doesn't help that there is little interest in mechanical things. Plus perhaps that antique cars can demand more attention and driving skills--ie. steering not as precise or power assisted, brakes not all that powerful, and something with a clutch--maybe even double clutching .

Edited July 25, 2013 by 36chev (see edit history)