Timing chain

[arnulfo de l.a.]

I'm in the process of changing out my timing chain. No problems with the one on it now , just want to have the peace of mind that comes with having the steel one in. I've got the water pump and water manifold off . I've just finished making a tool to keep the crankshaft from rotating when I remove and replace the harmonic balancer. Anything I should look out for before removing the timing cover? I was also wondering if anyone can tell me why a roller type timing chain is better than the non roller type. I plan on getting the roller type but I'm curious as to the opinions of the pros on this forum.

I'm also going to replace my water pump being that mine seems to be a little loose at the shaft bearing. I like that heavy duty cast iron one that Russ Martin sells . Anyone have one? Lastly, I'm considering going with a four row radiator core. What do you men think about using a four row core? Will everything still fit? The car is a 1965 riviera gs

Thank you all for your help,

Arnulfo

Edited July 8, 2013 by arnulfo de l.a.
Forgot car model (see edit history)

[rocky5517]

Just got thru that job w/ my 67; be real carefull getting those long bolts out/ most people predicted, accurately, that we'd break one. Takes much time, patience,skill, and a torch. And my mechanic is a teacher for GM! One thing to watch which we missed is that we damaged the original timing chain cover while prying it off- it's cast aluminium and damages easily. When we filled it w/ anti freeze we had a leak. Got a new one from OPG- around $500 with the new bearing already pressed in. My advice would be to look real close at your original- there's a small raised ridge that, once is damaged, seems to be quite an issue in repairing. Even if you had a good machine shop who ground everything perfectly smooth, it would be very difficult to re-create that "ridge", and I think that ridge helps to act as a gasket. Will post some pix later tonight.

[rocky5517]

The first picture shows the front of the block/ the second shows the timing chain cover before we cleaned it and the third is after cleaning. Looks great, right? Wrong!! Take a good look at that little raised "ridge"at the top round area, set back 1/8th " or so. See the damage? We didn't. The new piece was such an improvement we kicked ourselves for not realizing how easily the cast alum can get damaged. We replaced ,beside the timing chain, the radiator (same os original- the radiator guy said Buick engineers new what they were doing) water pump/ fan clutch/ hoses and belts/ rebuilt oil pump and pwr steering pump/ new fuel pump. Also, note that long bolt and the left/ that was the killer. Good chance to clean things up. Breaking that bolt was a blessing in disguise, because we didn't know the timing chain had a lot of play, plus the other repairs were needed anyway. More pix to follow

[rocky5517]

Watch out for that long bolt on the left!!

[rocky5517]

At least she's looking a bit cleaner..

[arnulfo de l.a.]

Rocky

Thank you much for the info and pictures. My engine is a 425 nailhead. Do you think the timing covers are similar? Either way i will be vigilant for the things you pointed out.

Arnulfo

[Bill Stoneberg]

Rocky

Thank you much for the info and pictures. My engine is a 425 nailhead. Do you think the timing covers are similar? Either way i will be vigilant for the things you pointed out.

Arnulfo

Yes, very similar and I too have broken bolts while removing the waterpump. When you put them back together use plenty of anti-sieze.

As far as the 4 core radiator goes, I have that in my 6r Riviera and I nver have a problems with the car getting hot, even in the Texas heat.

[arnulfo de l.a.]

thanks bill, on the 4 core radiator, was that on a 1965 riviera ? i was lucky on the water pump, no broken bolts. i preheated and sprayed lots of kroil penetrant prior to removal. ordered the parts today from russ martin. i will be removing the timing chain cover tomorrow.hopefully it will go as smooth as the water pump removal did. wish me luck men!

arnulfo

[rocky5517]

Good luck!!!!

[Mr Riviera]

64 , 65 same thing . 4 Row works great with no install problems .

[rocky5517]

How did you make out w timing chain cover removal?

[arnulfo de l.a.]

I cleaned all the grit off the cover a d surronding area first, then sprayed lots of penetrant on all the bolts. The two bolts on the top both right and left broke with about 20 ft. Lbs. max of torque pressure. They were corroded real bad close to the head and thats where they broke. The rest came out REAL EASY. Now im working on getting the woodruff key off the crankshaft. It seems to be seized in there. I plan on cutting a slit down the exposed length of it with my dremel and hope it comes out.

Arnulfo

[arnulfo de l.a.]

MAN! just spoke to russ martin and he informed me that the woodruff key on the crank CANNOT come out before removing the timing gear cover and *crankshaft timing gear. the woodruff key is one piece and goes all way through the dampner/balancer and under the crankshaft timing gear.so anyone who plans on changing their timing gear be aware of that.wrench and learn!

arnulfo

[rocky5517]

Arnulfo- I'm enclosing a close up of my timing chain cover; take a good look at the "ridge" around the rectangular port- we damaged it while trying to pry it off. Don't let this happen to you!!

[arnulfo de l.a.]

Rocky

Thanks for the heads up. Got the cover off without hurting the gasket ridge. A piece off one of the mounting holes did break off due to a very stubborn bolt. As a matter of fact there is still a piece of the broken bolt in the cover. It should not be a big deal to fix. It was one of the bolts next to the water port (of course...right ?). Im going to take it to a machinist tomorrow. Once i got the cover off there was steel gears and a VERY loose chain. So loose it looked like it was on the verge of skipping a tooth. My heart dropped because the first thing that came to mind was that the motor block was line bored and the chain would always be loose. Well i went ahead and put the new gears and roller chain on anyway and to my delight the chain is nice and tight as it should be. Once i got it all back together i will post and let you know how she runs

Arnulfo

[rocky5517]

How did you make out!

[arnulfo de l.a.]

Rocky,

going to star putting the timing cover, water pump, and manifold back together today.hope to have her fired up by this Friday. I'm anxious to see the improvement in performance.

arnulfo

[rocky5517]

Why did you take the manifold off?

[arnulfo de l.a.]

water manifold, the part that attaches to the top of the timing cover.

arnulfo

[arnulfo de l.a.]

Got it all put back together. All is well , no water or oil leaks and started right up. The biggest difference is in idle,hot starts and when I floor the gas pedal, NO PINGING AT ALL! Iwas getting pinging prior to changing the timing chain . i figured it was because of todays poor quality gas and was something i was going to have to live with.The idle smoothed out considerably and it fires right up when hot. A couple of lessons learned; 1) make sure you have a fire extinguisher handy if decide to use heat to try and free rusted on bolts. Luckily,I had one handy when a small fire started just behind the primary carb. Two wires going to the coil burned. No big deal to fix. But I did have to pull the carb to clean out all the fire extinguisher powder that got in it. 2) forget about trying to reuse the original hardware to reinstall the timing cover and water pump. I'm trying to keep this car as original as possible and that includes hardware. I guess because of the many heat cycles these bolts go through they get weak. I had the last one I was torquing down (21ft. Lbs) break on me. Luckily I used lots of anti- seize and the broken piece came out easy without having to take every thing back off. I put all new grade 5 hardware.

It is a labor intensive job but anyone with average mechanical ability should be able to do it. I do recommend that you take your time . Next on the agenda is to take the car up north to Russ Martin so he can remove my oil pan and give it a good cleaning as well as take a look and see. I also am going to have him tackle my problem with my carb and or linkage that's not allowing the engine to return to idle without snapping the gas peddle. I tried and just couldn't figure it out. I spoke to russ and he said he can fix it.

So there you have it men! One more item checked off the "rivi to do list".

Arnulfo

[rocky5517]

Congrats!!!

[slosteve]

Congrats!!!

X 2 for a job well done.

[Roman Gaona]

On 7/22/2013 at 1:18 PM, rocky5517 said:

Congrats!!!

we rebuilt a 425 and have a coolant leak where the water manifold which sits on top of timing chain cover cant seem to figure out why any suggestions?

[Seafoam65]

Your sentence doesn't make any sense.....you must have left some words out. I can't tell from your sentence where exactly the leak is at your water manifold, but the fix is to use the "Right Stuff" by Permatex to seal all the manifold connections. If you just use fiber gaskets, you are going to have a leak.

"The Right Stuff" is a silicone gasket maker that comes in a kit with two cartridges and a miniature caulking gun. On thermostat gaskets on old engines

I use only this with no regular gasket.....absolutely no leaks.

[60FlatTop]

Its been a while since I had one apart, but I am pretty sure those four water manifold bolt thread into open holes to the water jackets. If your leak is coming from under the head of one of those bolts you need to put a dab of sealant on the threads. I'm thinking I put Leak Lock on those four bolts and the center O-ring...... 20 years ago.

Bernie

[RivNut]

4 hours ago, Roman Gaona said:

we rebuilt a 425 and have a coolant leak where the water manifold which sits on top of timing chain cover cant seem to figure out why any suggestions?

Did you get the correct sized O-ring to fit between them?

[Roman Gaona]

1 minute ago, RivNut said:

Did you get the correct sized O-ring to fit between them?

yes we did change it a couple of times but doing the same thing hoping it will work with Right Stuff

[telriv]

Coolant leaks around the O-Ring are common. This happens because the timing case cover gets deeply corroded over time & the leaking coolant eats away at the aluminum. The corrosion needs to be cleaned up VERY WELL. Using a Dremel with different size wire brushes makes the job easier.  It sometimes goes pretty deep. In reality the ONLY way to do this properly is to replace the cover. They are available. I was in on the design process many years ago. Onto fixing what you have. Once ALL the corrosion is cleaned from the lower surface you install the Right Stuff sealant. DON'T overdo it as it can block this bypass hole. As an added precaution I have taken an .060" thick inner valve spring shim & cut down the OD to fit inside the timing case cover. I install this shim to the bottom tube of the water manifold. What this does is pushes the O-Ring tighter against the timing case cover because you just added .060" more "Crush".  In some EXTREME cases I've used 2 O-Rings to take up the clearance.

  These covers ALSO get corrosion around the water pump sealing areas & where the coolant goes into the block. I have milled these areas flat again to end ALL possibilities for leaks. This of course requires a milling machine at a machine shop. So if yours has this much pitting you would be doing yourself a favor & just replace the cover NOW because you will be almost at the cost of a new cover..

   One area you CANNOT repair is the cavitation corrosion that occurs behind the water pump vanes & the outer surfaces of the raised area at the top & bottom. If you look at the picture that Red Rivera Bob posted you can see the corrosion.

 

IF you post pics of your cover I can tell you IF it's a candidate for repairs if you take pics of the areas mentioned.

 

Tom T.