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llskis

Number of entries in the various classes seem to be very inconsistent; here is one idea.

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One thing I have noticed in the past G/N at Moline and the past G/Nationals in other years is something should

be done to Class 36B. It is by far the class that has the most entries for most of the meets. I believe this class should be

broken down by more years(Add more classes). There was a total of 18 entries in this class; roughly 1/2 going for first place and the other

half going for Senior. All the other classes in the 30 or above had very small number of entries; sometimes even one

in number. I would assume one of the Judging Guidlines would be to make all classes as fair as possible. Just by looking

at the types of cars in the class one has to wonder what a 61 Chevy Impala has in common with a 1969 Camaro. It

does not make sense to me. I am not sure how to take this up with whoever writes the rules/classes in the Judging

Guidelines Book that comes out every year. Perhaps R W Burgess can comment how this should be done. Of course I

would like more comments from the members on this subject. Thanks in advance-Larry

Edited by llskis
add info (see edit history)

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just because a person has a muscle car does not mean you must be in that class. An owner could opt for class 27d,e,f, etc. A judge please correct me if i'm wrong.

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llskis,

If you have any concern regarding class judging, you should contact the VP of Class Judging. The class assignments don't make as much difference as you think. Under the AACA Judging system, you are not actually competing against the other cars in your class. Each car is judged against the same standard, and the award is earned based on a numeric score. The only influence that other cars in your class have is the 10 point rule, as a car has to be within 10 points of the highest scoring car in its class to received a first. At a Grand National it is a 5 point rule. For Senior Grand National there is no effect, as all cars scoring 390 or more are awarded the Senior Grand National award.

The number of cars registering in a particular class change a bit from one meet to another. There are probably some regional differences in what seems to be more commonly shown. The numbers in a particular class are probably fairly random from one meet to the next.

billybird,

While there are certainly examples of cars that have been occasionally placed in the wrong class, a vehicle should only be eligible to compete in one class. If it meets the criteria for one of the high performance classes, a car should be shown in that class.

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llskis,

If you have any concern regarding class judging, you should contact the VP of Class Judging. The class assignments don't make as much difference as you think. Under the AACA Judging system, you are not actually competing against the other cars in your class. Each car is judged against the same standard, and the award is earned based on a numeric score. The only influence that other cars in your class have is the 10 point rule, as a car has to be within 10 points of the highest scoring car in its class to received a first. At a Grand National it is a 5 point rule. For Senior Grand National there is no effect, as all cars scoring 390 or more are awarded the Senior Grand National award.

The number of cars registering in a particular class change a bit from one meet to another. There are probably some regional differences in what seems to be more commonly shown. The numbers in a particular class are probably fairly random from one meet to the next.

billybird,

While there are certainly examples of cars that have been occasionally placed in the wrong class, a vehicle should only be eligible to compete in one class. If it meets the criteria for one of the high performance classes, a car should be shown in that class.

Matthew: Thanks for the response. Here is the way I look at it. If there is a super huge class like 36b seems to be at every meet then the chances of

someone shown up with a recent -over the top- restoration is far greater than most other classes. In most cases that would bring a score very close to

perfect or close to it. Say it scores 97%; so a lot of the cars will clear the hurdle of 380 points but will not come close to the 5 Point rule. Where in a lot

of other classes with only 1 or 2 entries they will "skate" in with just a little over the 380 minimun rule. Just seems that some of the classes are far easier

to achieve their objectives then 36B.JMHO--Larry

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I understand your point of view on the issue. There are a number of classes that tend to have a lot of cars that are restored to a very high level. I agree that the High Performance Classes tend to have some really stiff competition. There is no way to make life totally 100% fair and 100% predictable. Feel free to share your concerns with the VP of Class Judging. That is the person who could best answer your question to on such issues.

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I understand your point of view on the issue. There are a number of classes that tend to have a lot of cars that are restored to a very high level. I agree that the High Performance Classes tend to have some really stiff competition. There is no way to make life totally 100% fair and 100% predictable. Feel free to share your concerns with the VP of Class Judging. That is the person who could best answer your question to on such issues.

Does anybody know if the VP of Class Judging(Hulon McCraw.) reads this forum?

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With the volume of email that he receives regarding his AACA Duties, I suspect he would have very little time to read the forum. He can best be contacted through his contact information as found on the AACA homepage:

[TABLE=align: left]

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[TD=bgcolor: inherit !important, align: center]<address style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; line-height: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;"> Hulon C. McCraw

V.P. - Class Judging

101 Dausuel Trail</address><address style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; line-height: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;">Henersonville, NC 28791</address><address style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; line-height: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;">hcmccraw@morrisbb.net</address><address style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; line-height: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;"> </address><address style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; line-height: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;"> </address><address style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; line-height: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;"> </address>[/TD]

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[/TR]

</tbody>[/TABLE]

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Does anybody know if the VP of Class Judging(Hulon McCraw.) reads this forum?

It is my understanding that most of the directors, VPs etc. do not come to the forums. However, some of us have been known, and I am one of them, to contact them and ask their opinion about something and they will answer and we can then put that answer here for them as a quote. But you can contact him yourself and get your specific question answered.

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It is my understanding that most of the directors, VPs etc. do not come to the forums. However, some of us have been known, and I am one of them, to contact them and ask their opinion about something and they will answer and we can then put that answer here for them as a quote. But you can contact him yourself and get your specific question answered.

Susan: Thanks for your input. I'm not sure what the proper procedure would be for the Judging Divison to look/revise the Judging Guidline Book. I'm

sure Hulon would agee logically with my concerns and "see" my point. What I don't understand is it solely up to him to revise the guidelines or is there sometype

of "committee" that does this. Do they even want input from the members?? Thanks-Larry

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There is a committee. The VP of Class Judging is the head of the committee and is the contact person for any concerns, suggestions, or other input that any member wishes to provide to the committee. Here is the explanation straight from the Judging Guidelines. The PDF formatting is sort of weird, but this explains it.

A. MEMBERSHIP OF THE CLASS JUDGING

COMMITTEE

The Class Judging Committee is made up

of the following AACA members:

1. Vice President-Class Judging

2. Vice President-Judges Administration

(AVP-Class Judging)

3. Assistant VP-Judges Admin

4. Chairman-Judges Training

5. Chairman-Judges Records

6. Chairman-HPOF

7. Chairman-DPC

8. Chairman-CJE

9. Chairman-SCC

10. Chairman-Race Car Certification

11. Chairman-Judges Honor Society

12. Chairman-Class Acceptance

13. Any other contributing members at the

discretion

of the Vice President-Class

Judging.

B. FUNCTIONS OF THE CLASS JUDGING

COMMITTEE

The duties of the Class Judging Committee

are:

1. Make a periodic review of vehicle

classification and submit recommendations

to the National

Board of Directors

for the

revision

or addition

of classes.

2. Review applications for inclusion in the list

of specified Classic, Prestige

and Limited

Production

and Prototype vehicles and

make recommendations

for approval to

the National

Board of Directors.

32

3 Make recommendations

for the

improvement

of the judging forms and

other forms used in class judging.

4. Determine when items for deduction

should be added or deleted

on the

judging forms and submit

same to the

National

Board of Directors.

5. Maintain a continuing review of all

aspects of class judging and make

recommendations

as needed.

6. Establish a Judges Proficiency

Committee from members of the Class

Judging Committee to review the

conduct and proficiency

of any member

of the AACA judging system.

7. Update the AACA Official Judging

Guidelines to include all appropriate

revisions.

8. Review all applications for National

meet chief judges prior to final approval

by Vice President-

Class Judging

Edited by MCHinson
Added Judging Guidelines Text (see edit history)

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Matthew: Thanks very much for the "procedure" for input. I will in time take this up with Hulon; will let him for now try to catch up on

all the request and emails.--Thanks-Larry

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Having done all the national meets in 2010 which include places like Tucson, AZ and Cheyenne, WY, Moline, IL, it was an eye opener as what takes place in other areas of the country at national meets. Here on the east coast I'm use to a national meet being several hundred cars to over 1,000 at Hershey. My jaw dropped when I walked into Judges breakfast in Tucson. There were only a handful of tables. When I went to the showfield there were only about 50 vehicles. A local AACA meet here has more cars!! The meets in the Central Division did have better attendance but were still what I consider to be on the small size for a national meet.

The reason I mention this is to show the wide range of show sizes and with that comes the factoring; location, who decides to attend which determines the number of vehicles in a class. While the class 36B was large at that meet(s), it may not be that large in comparison to other classes at other meets say on the east coast.

Hulon and the committee will look at your input, but I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a change after they look at the class size at several meets nation wide, not just a couple meets in the Central Division.

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Having done all the national meets in 2010 which include places like Tucson, AZ and Cheyenne, WY, Moline, IL, it was an eye opener as what takes place in other areas of the country at national meets. Here on the east coast I'm use to a national meet being several hundred cars to over 1,000 at Hershey. My jaw dropped when I walked into Judges breakfast in Tucson. There were only a handful of tables. When I went to the showfield there were only about 50 vehicles. A local AACA meet here has more cars!! The meets in the Central Division did have better attendance but were still what I consider to be on the small size for a national meet.

The reason I mention this is to show the wide range of show sizes and with that comes the factoring; location, who decides to attend which determines the number of vehicles in a class. While the class 36B was large at that meet(s), it may not be that large in comparison to other classes at other meets say on the east coast.

Hulon and the committee will look at your input, but I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a change after they look at the class size at several meets nation wide, not just a couple meets in the Central Division.

novaman: Thanks for your input. But I'll still stand with my original statement. Just go back and look at the last several Grand Nationals regardless

where they where held. You will find that class 36B is "above and beyond" in number then any other class. It's my opinion that it will even grow

larger in the future. If AACA does not what to increase the number of classes surely they can start combining (condensing) other classes that have

become less popular. I'm a member of NCRS and Bloomington Gold and one of their bylaws is to try to make all classes as fair as possible in relationship

to other classes. Why should some classes have "one" entry(at almost every meet) and "skate in" to their objective and other classes have to fight for every point. Fair is Fair.

Just my opinion--Larry

Edited by llskis
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Larry,

You are correct in saying that the 36b class has been large in the past GN meets, at least the past two, at last years GN Meet I seem to remember there being about 30 cars in the class. However, that's just the GN meets, this isn't the case at the regular National Meets. In reviewing the class attendance over the past year there just hasn't been that many cars in the class. One show didn't have any cars in 36b, one meet only had two cars in the class and at Hershey, the largest regular event of the year there were only 6 cars going for Jr. and 6 going for Sr. If you average the regular National Meets, there were only 5.5 cars in class 36b, that's not too many cars for a class at a National Meet. The GN meet is a once a year event where cars come from all over the nation to compete, I don't think we had too many cars at Moline and I sure don't think we need to add classes, we have too many now.

It doesn't matter how many cars are in the class, large or small, the outcome will be the same. Anyone entering a car in a GN Meet hoping to win a 1st GN award needs to be prepared to score mid 390's because at every GN Meet you can count on a 398-400 point car being in the class. Really, I'd like to see more cars in the class, that shows the interest in the muscle cars. I'll go back to one of my original posts prior to the Moline meet, "the more the merrier" Just my thoughts

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Tommy: Always like your comments. In this case will just have to agree to "disagree". Yes there will always be a 398/400 Pt. car

especially in 36b. I can't say that about all the other classes especially with one entry. I would not want the club members to start

selecting classes vs. selecting cars. I looked at a lot of different classes say from class 27 on up and did not see anything in comparison

to class 36b. In fact I thought that the majority of class 36b cars where way "overrestored". Showing my age now but I bought brand new

Camaro's in the age bracket and none of them came close from the factory in comparison what a saw that day. This is just my opinion

and I respect all other opinions. Still had a great time. Larry

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Thanks Tommy for the research into the numbers I didn't' have time to do before needing to head to work this morning. You confirmed the point I was trying to make which was not to expect changes due to one or two shows have a large number when the overall average for that class isn't that large.

Larry as far as " Why should some classes have "one" entry(at almost every meet) and "skate in" to their objective and other classes have to fight for every point. Fair is Fair." That one car is still playing be the same rules as everyone else. It has to meant the minimum points required and be within the 5 or 10 points of the highest point car. Just being the highest makes it easier. It is always a numbers/odds game. If you had a car that say was a 370-375 36b car. Even though there were a large number as the past couple GN meets, the next one you take it to could be bad weather, the 398+ cars stay in the trailers but you put yours out there you're likely to get the award. OR you could get a different car, one that falls in one of the low perticapent classes, but if you're luck is like mine, that will be the day a 400 point car just happens to show up and you don't get anyway. (I went to one show with a "most in need of restoration" award. Took a '49 Willys Wagon, had no hood, no exhaust, minimum wiring to make it run, no interior, had rust holes. Was beat out by a Model A).

Also remember, you're only challenged once by that higher point car as he'll move on and won't be going for the same award until preservation and then the points are meet the minimum. You can also improve your car to make it on of the 400 point cars and "breeze through" as the top dog.

There is just no way you can make the classes so that every national meet have the same number of vehicles in each class when you never know who is going to come and with what vehicle until they register for a meet.

Biggest thing is go and have fun. Although I judge, you'll NEVER see one of my cars in any class other than HPOF or DPC. Reason for that is I am there to have FUN, the awards is not important to me personally and I've seen too many people get way too bent out of shape over awards, get pissed and quit clubs over that $(insert price) trophy/dust catcher.

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Over restoration gets them no extra points. incorrect IE non-factory options, etc. will get them deductions.

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Over restoration gets them no extra points. incorrect IE non-factory options, etc. will get them deductions.

novaman: You make excellant points that I like very much. But I believe you will see in the future that class 36b will be

changed. Simple logic dictates that. AFA over restoration; here is my take. Judges are only human and can not be blamed.

When you "dangle" 9 carriots in front of them and the 10th car is a potatoe. (But car is truely an original in every respect)

that car will get the deductions for sure. My car was restored to that matter. Couple of examples are: GM always left

there rear axles (lightly painted black) out in the yard in the rain/snow. They where put on the car "as is" with surface

rust on them. I have a Camaro bought new with 175 miles on it; yes it has rust underneath just the way it came. Exhaust

manifolds always came with surface rust on them. I do not believe our judges know enough how cars came from the factory

but they do the best they can. They are simply "shocked and awed" when they see these overrestorations. And when a

class like 36b has the above it is more pronouced and exacerbated. Again; just my opinion. Larry

Edited by llskis (see edit history)

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Larry,

I think in another discussion, I urged you to attend a judging school and consider becoming a judge. I would again urge you to do so.

In any system people are going to sometimes make mistakes. With that said, i will say that in my experience, judges understand more than you seem to be giving them credit for. In AACA Overrestoration does not get you any extra points over a correctly restored car as it came from the factory.

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Larry,

I think in another discussion, I urged you to attend a judging school and consider becoming a judge. I would again urge you to do so.

In any system people are going to sometimes make mistakes. With that said, i will say that in my experience, judges understand more than you seem to be giving them credit for. In AACA Overrestoration does not get you any extra points over a correctly restored car as it came from the factory.

MCHinson:

Again thanks; but you are missing my point completely. I not saying they give the overrestored cars any more points; what

I am saying is that after seeing all these overrestored cars when they see a completely original looking car(not overrestored)

that car will get deductions for sure. In their mind they are comparing cars; it only human to do so. I have attended several

judinging schools.FYI Larry

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As an experienced judge, I have to disagree with you. In my experience, cars that are restored like they came from the factory don't get inappropriate deductions. Actually most judges that I have judged with tend to comment favorably regarding those cars with a more original looking accurate restoration, as opposed to the more commonly seen over-restored cars.

If you don't judge, you don't understand how the process works in the real world. If you have attended judging schools in the past, you should continue to do so and also sign up to judge so you would have a better understanding of the process.

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To every thing there is a season. Years ago it was common to see swarms of Model A Fords competing at an AACA show. One year at Hershey I counted over 100 Model A's. Then we saw large classes of Tbirds, then '57 Chevies, then Mustangs. Hard as it is to believe, in a few years the muscle car classes will settle down in numbers also. Just give it time and enjoy. As an experienced judge (and restorer) I am well able to keep over restored and "from the factory" cars separated in my head and I think most experienced judges can do the same. Of course some cars came from the factory with surface rust on the chassis but likely some also came with no rust on the chassis and I suspect the designers and engineers would have preferred that the cars reach the dealers with no rust.

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