Segman Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Looks like alarm relay may be keeping it from starting. Thanks to Hemi Andersen for pointing this out! Anyone ever delt with the alarm on a TC. It looks like it is factory installed. There is a black relay next to the starter relay. If I jump terminal #1 and #2 I get 12 volts to the starter solenoid. Terminal #3 and #4 goes to ground and terminal #5 I don't get anything. I thought I may get a constant 12 volts here? I traced one wire inside and looks like its going to the door, but not positive. And I don't have any key fob, just the normal Chrysler key. Any help is appreciated.ThanksChris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostymosty Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Maybe someone with a service manual can post a photo of the terminal connector for the Auto Shut Down relay. I don't know of any factory installed alarm system on any TC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89TC-16V Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 i know dealers installed clifford alarms, i have paperwork from a dealer when they did the one on my 90. it had a key fob to disarm it. my 91 spirit r/t has the same dealer installed alarm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Segman Posted June 12, 2013 Author Share Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) Guys, here is a pic of the relay, its the black one on the left(alarm?). The fuel pump is kicking on so I didnt think it was ASD realy. Also, here is a pic of the TC, 89 16 Valve with 50,000 miles on odometer if it works. Got the car a few years ago but haven't had any time to work on it. Excited about getting it running and seeing what the TC is like! I also here a clicking noise coming from the passenger side by the purge canister. Found a fuse block with 30 amp fuses and some relays, not sure what this is for, anyone have an idea? Edited June 12, 2013 by Segman (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostymosty Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 That black relay is definitely something that was added to the car after it was built. You need to find out what kind of alarm was installed and if it included a starter override, maybe google the numbers on that relay as a starting point. The small fuse block on the passenger side is for the ABS system, sometimes the wires going to the fuseblock have been overused and melt a little bit, causing ABS problems but if your ABS light goes out after starting the car then they are probably OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Segman Posted June 12, 2013 Author Share Posted June 12, 2013 The numbers on the relay are 10019535, comes up as a gm relay. Have not found anything yet on what type of alarm. I guess I could remove the relay but I would like to know how this all works. I'll keep you posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Segman Posted June 13, 2013 Author Share Posted June 13, 2013 Ok guys, I found more components of the alarm system. There is a component by the purge canister and a line that runs to an air horn behind bumper. Found a wire disconnected from the component by the purge canister (cylinder shape). I plugged it back in, turned the key, and man that is a loud horn. I meter the soleniod signal wire and still no voltage. There is some letters on both pieces that say FIAMM made in Italy. Anyone heard of this system before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garnet & Gold Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 FIAMM, you have found the factory horn that came with all TC's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Segman Posted June 13, 2013 Author Share Posted June 13, 2013 Darn, I though I was on to something, lol. So it must be tied into the alarm system. Does anyone think there would be an alarm control module somewhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digger914 Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Darn, I though I was on to something, lol. So it must be tied into the alarm system. Does anyone think there would be an alarm control module somewhere?Look for extra wires running from the ignition switch harness and follow them to wherever they go. In the early 90's Prime in the midwest and Clifford on the coast, were the two most popular aftermarket alarms that came with remote fobs, and their control units were usually mounted under the dash. There were a dozen others that had external key or hidden interior switches and these were also usually mounted under the dash. I did search all day to find a Prime mounted between front fender and frame on a Cadillac Alanti, but the Alanti came with door key switch factory security and the battery was behind the seats. If you find a Prime or Clifford they are still in business and fobs for the unit might still be available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostymosty Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Look at the steering wheel column for wires that have a plastic quick 'T' connector to run a wire to a control box, or a cut wire that got a new spliced wire to the control box and a wire back to the other side of the cut wire. Also look at the interior fuse box for an added fuse in the 'acc' location which is normally not filled so things can be added later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Segman Posted June 13, 2013 Author Share Posted June 13, 2013 I did find a 30 amp fuse in the accessory location. Will check it out and trace wires.ThanksChris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest My TC Toy Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 I found a rats nest of wires under the dash connected to the alarm system (which did not work- surprise). First I slowly traced each wire from the control box to find the connection points, then I disconnected each wire where it was just connected and re-spliced the original wiring where it was cut. A couple of wires went out into the engine compartment. Everything worked fine afterwards. Too bad the alarm system wasn't factory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Segman Posted June 19, 2013 Author Share Posted June 19, 2013 I found the passenger door would not unlock with key, the linkage from key lock cylinder to door latch had come apart. Also notice there are wires running to the key lock cylinder. I thought after hooking linkage back up and unlocking with key might help but no fix, horn still goes off while turning ignition key on. And have not found any control module yet. Anyone seen these wires before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GregTC Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 I dont know what year your car is but on the 1989's the key cylinders had lights as part of the lighted entry systemGreg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digger914 Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 The wires to the door lock cylinder work the inside lights when you lift the door handle and the timer turns them off. That is period Chrysler normal.Because you have a car that's had wiring modifications for alarm system and we don't know if the controlled system replaced a simpler ignition horn alert you are going to have some kind of fun tracing this down. Normally this kind of horn problem could be a couple of things and simple is the best place to start. As the horn doesn't blow constantly a stuck horn relay is not the most likely cause and a short inside the steering column is. As you didn't mention seeing any extra buttons or switches while you were under the dash cleaning up the wiring try starting the car with your foot on the brake pedal, unwanted noise was the cheapest most popular theft deterrent of the late 80's and it was usually connected to the brake lights. Without the 12 volts from the hidden switch or the brake lights the horn would blow when you turned the key. If this solves your problem, you can track this down like you did the alarm control box, or you might want to leave it in place. If this doesn't remove all fuses except for the one that works the horn, slowly unlock the column and turn the key lock through it's full travel, if the horn still blows your most likely cause is damaged wire insulation shorting against the ignition switch actuator linkage, usually found on the high end just below the locking plate, use an inspection mirror and take a look at the low end first. If you don't see any obvious problem on the low end pull the steering wheel and with luck you find a pinched wire on the top end. If you don't, put the fuses back in place one at a time and you can expect to spend some time with a wiring diagram chasing this down.Best of luck on finding the most likely cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Segman Posted June 19, 2013 Author Share Posted June 19, 2013 Thanks for reply's, it is an 89. I started tracing wires from relay since I have found no control module. Terminal 1 is coming from starter relay, so terminal 2 would supply 12 volts to soleniod but it's not closing. Terminal 3 and 4, one is going to ground and the other goes inside the driver side door. Terminal 5 is spliced into a green wire running to the horn. I have not taken door panel off yet to see what wire is connected to. Seems like what is in the door needs to supply 12 volts to close the relay. Is it possible that there is no control module? I'll keep you posted, thanks.Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digger914 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Thanks for reply's, it is an 89. I started tracing wires from relay since I have found no control module. Terminal 1 is coming from starter relay, so terminal 2 would supply 12 volts to soleniod but it's not closing. Terminal 3 and 4, one is going to ground and the other goes inside the driver side door. Terminal 5 is spliced into a green wire running to the horn. I have not taken door panel off yet to see what wire is connected to. Seems like what is in the door needs to supply 12 volts to close the relay. Is it possible that there is no control module? I'll keep you posted, thanks.ChrisThere is no control module for noise deterrent just a relay that honks the horn if it gets voltage from the ignition before it gets the disable signal. With an extra wire into drivers door you could have a hidden switch in the door pocket or it hooks to lock, any window, or the mirror switch. Sounds like you found the relay that grounds the horn and if you don't want to keep the noise deterrent you could cut the wire that splices to the horn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Segman Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share Posted June 20, 2013 Ok, took drivers side door panel off. Found wires going to key lock cylinder broke off. The wire running to this door must be spliced in with this, but have not confirmed yet. I think it must be spliced inside the boot between car and door. There is a small harness to unplug these wires from the key lock cylinder. I unplugged this connector and jumped it, and the car horn still went off. Not sure exactly how the lighting system works at this time, but I should get 12 volts when the door is unlocked, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digger914 Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Most important questions? does the horn honk constant with the key in acc. and or on? does it honk only when you turn to spin the starter motor? Nobody splices wires inside the flex boot unless they absolutely have to, and 12v to door lock is only temporary. 30+ years ago I put a hidden switch noise ignition disable system on an old truck; to make sure the old owner didn't borrow it in the middle of the night. Got it from JC Whitney as a kit for my vehicle. After I saw what it was I never paid that kind of money to buy another one. If someone built their own, how and where it's wired is anybody's guess. There are two ways to wire the relay, 12v to trigger or connect to gnd. Connect to ground is good for valet parking as you can use a hidden toggle switch and leave it on to disable the horn and or ignition interrupt. 12v to coil needs to be supplied while starting the vehicle. Can't see what you're looking at, so my best guess is you need to hold the door lock switch to supply 12v while starting the car. Second best guess, you have a bad relay coil or contact.Need to figure what you have. Your relay has 5 contact points. 2 for coil. 1 Normally Open, 1 Normally Closed, 1 Common which connects to power or ground and flips between NC & NO. If you're wired for 12v to hold one side of the coil the other will be connected to ground. Your relay might have a picture of pin outs and this will be easy to determine, if not, pull the relay and use an OHM meter to find coil resistance and your Normally Closed contacts. You could save a lot of time, cut the thing out and put the car back to factory, but this low tech disable system is now more secure than many of the new computer keys with digital remotes and you might want to keep it. With a wire that looks like it could be spliced inside the flex boot there is another remote possibility and that is a control head hidden behind the front fender, or next to the parking brake behind the kick panel. If you have a well made ignition disable with noise deterrent system, odds are you will have another relay hiding somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Segman Posted June 21, 2013 Author Share Posted June 21, 2013 The horn honks constant when you turn the key to spin the starter, goes off when you release. I will dig into it more and find what wire it is spliced into. I did follow this wire from relay to flex boot and did not find any other connection. Do you guys know if you can get a replacement lock cylinder with wire harness for the entry lighting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digger914 Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Lock cylinders are available almost everywhere and don't direct connect to the harness. The harness connects to the thing that connects to the thing that connects to the lock and a sloppy slim jim job on the door lock will snap those off in a heartbeat. Look for something down at the bottom inside the door. If you have a part number you can probably get what you need from Arizona parts. You can spend some time at your local Chrysler dealer trying to explain to them what you're looking for, or you can get the parts book for your year TC on CD from RockAuto Parts Catalog for less than $30. Good news is that the voltage you need to fire the started solenoid is making it to your relay and if you don't have and need a wiring diagram to figure out the wiring you can get a brand new reprint service manual for less than $50 from the same place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Segman Posted June 21, 2013 Author Share Posted June 21, 2013 Ok, thanks for the help, I'll keep you posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Segman Posted June 22, 2013 Author Share Posted June 22, 2013 Ok, found some shady work. The wire going to the door is spliced to an orange with black stripe wire, and spliced in the boot between the door and car. Followed this wire and it's going to the power door lock actuator. I tested the door locks before and both worked, so I'm not sure why relay is not firing. I'll check the relay again tomorrow with a meter. Most likely I'll just pull this thing out and car should start. Would like to get the lighted entry working on the key lock since I have door panel off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Segman Posted June 22, 2013 Author Share Posted June 22, 2013 Found a schematic of relay online. Looks like its passing the voltage fron starter relay to the horn, terminal 1 to 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digger914 Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Ok, found some shady work. The wire going to the door is spliced to an orange with black stripe wire, and spliced in the boot between the door and car. Followed this wire and it's going to the power door lock actuator. I tested the door locks before and both worked, so I'm not sure why relay is not firing. I'll check the relay again tomorrow with a meter. Most likely I'll just pull this thing out and car should start. Would like to get the lighted entry working on the key lock since I have door panel off.Unbelievable. Nobody splices wires inside the flex boot unless they absolutely have to, then again, if someone built their own how and where it's wired is anybody's guess. If it's wired to work with floating ground pull it all and put it back together the best you can. If it doesn't fire up when you get the starter spinning check for an extra wire attached to the coil and don't expect to find it close to the coil, I would have done this and it sounds like whoever did this knew his electricity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Segman Posted June 22, 2013 Author Share Posted June 22, 2013 I went ahead and cut the wiring out and the relay. The only cut factory wire is the solenoid signal wire, the others I need to remove the solder and re-insulate. I am going to the junk yard and cut out a starter relay harness so I have a long piece of solenoid signal wire to splice. I took some pics of what I found. Thanks for every ones help. This should take care of the problem. I'll keep you posted when I get started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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