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Help to identify these bumper brackets, are they PD


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These bumper brackets came with my PD but I only have 2, 1 back and I think 1 front. The rear one on the top looks as if it will fit the 2 holes just in front of the back rear spring hanger, but I am totally lost where the lower bracket would fit. I do have the front bumper blade, but want to make sure its PD before I make a duplicate opposite hand bracket.

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​Trusting someone will recognise them, thanks for looking.

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post-86357-143141936701_thumb.jpgHere are shots of the ones from my Plymouth PD. Both sets fit the bumper face bars that I have and the frame. The 1933 PD has a front bumper face bar that has a dip in the front. The front bumper bracket bolts to the holes in the end of the frame horns and is equipped with a two piece stamped metal cover that is usually missing. Hope this is helpful. Chris

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1935EB's brackets are correct for 1933. Your's seem to be 'home grown' as in made locally in the U.K. for possibly bumpers purchased from a British source? The long 'S' formed one is really strange. The other 'Y' one must be a rear as it still has what looks like the rubber filler piece on it.

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Ok you have confirmed that the rear bracket is correct, I now need to get the shape right for the front. My front bumber blade has the dip in the centre as in the my avatar, I could do with a shot from above of the front fixing showing the cover plates that Chris mentions.

Main thing is we are making progress.

Many thanks

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post-86357-14314193875_thumb.jpgTom, Here are photos of the cover assembly for the front bumper bolts. These are applied to Plymouth and Dodges for at least 1933 and 1934, maybe other Chrysler cars and years. The ones I have are reproductions made by NC Industries in Sayer Pennsylvania. 570 888 6216. I have seen these painted black and chrome plated. I believe the black is correct for Plymouth. I will look at my photo's for a top view of the front irons. I may have to take these over the next few days. Chris

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The cover was not used on Plymouths. That cover N.C. Industries sells is for a De Soto Chrysler as the base and cover were used on other vehicles. (And they never were chromed. Only painted black as far as I know.)

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The cover was not used on Plymouths. That cover N.C. Industries sells is for a De Soto Chrysler as the base and cover were used on other vehicles. (And they never were chromed. Only painted black as far as I know.)

I appreciate that knobless's old car may not be correct but it clearly shows the cover plates in chrome.

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Tom, Made measurements at body shop this morning. The left dimension on the photo is 6 1/2 inch, the right dimension is 6 inches. Having said this one of these two brackets is bent as can be seen. I believe the upper iron in the photo is closest to being right in which case the left dimension is closer to be 0 inches. In looking at knobless' coupe it appears to be in line with the upper iron. I really would prefer test fitting my face bar to these brackets and positioning on frame horns to check this. Chris

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Thanks for trying Chris, I do understand what you mean about doing a trial fit first. There are lots of unknown about these bumper blade fixings, obviously the bracket from the horns have to be bent down to bring them parallel with the ground, then they have to be bent to give the correct stand-off from the leading edge of the front fenders. I'm going to put these on hold until you can give me dimensions you are happy with.

post-72422-143141953395_thumb.jpg These images are of a early 1933 PC, I'm going to looking for side mount covers some time in the future. The bumper fixings are totally different as is the blade not having the dip in the middle.

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OK several things. The chrome covers on the PC are incorrect. They were never sold that way by Chrysler that I know of. And Plymouth never used the covers only the underneath part. I guarantee that is the way it was. The green '33 is not a true PC. It has a PC bumper but is a PD. The sidemounts are a dead giveaway as well as the rad cap. PCs had no outside rad cap. And the sidemounts are set lower that PCs were and there is more distance between them and the front door. PCs could have sidemounts but only on the follow up PCXX which had a 1" perch added to the front springs to move the front axle forward by 1" to make way for the sidemounts. But it was TIGHT! Also this car has PD 'bullet' shaped headlights. PCs were bowl shaped. But notice the straight PC bumper has been mounted with the brackets you show in your original photo. I mentioned that those brackets were most likely made for locally produced bumpers. This is the answer. Your PD should have a straight PC bumper on it mounted with your brackets. Our brackets over here are more curved. Like your rear ones. Apparently bumpers did not come with the knocked down cars from Canada or the U.S. and the brackets were made up locally with out copying ours over here. You're trying to copy our PDs over here and we're trying to give you directions to do that. BUT I think your car came the way the green PD came and that's how it should be restored.

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OK several things. Plymouth never used the covers only the underneath part. I guarantee that is the way it was. The green '33 is not a true PC. It has a PC bumper but is a PD. The sidemounts are a dead giveaway as well as the rad But notice the straight PC bumper has been mounted with the brackets you show in your original photo. I mentioned that those brackets were most likely made for locally produced bumpers. This is the answer. Your PD should have a straight PC bumper on it mounted with your brackets. Our brackets over here are more curved. Like your rear ones. Apparently bumpers did not come with the knocked down cars from Canada or the U.S. and the brackets were made up locally with out copying ours over here. You're trying to copy our PDs over here and we're trying to give you directions to do that. BUT I think your car came the way the green PD came and that's how it should be restored.

​Firstly the serial no starts with a 2 build between 6th and 12 of September 1933, the build card decode sheet states the model is a 6 (Deluxe) Model code Engine # Prefix: PD-PDX, Plant Detroit

I may have confused things a little by posting the images of the green car which was used by a South African company in its annual report. My intention was the type of view I am looking for of the bumper fixings and the fact that I am missing sidemount covers complete (all I have is the holes below the belt line and on the fenders. Time will tell what the car looked like in its early years in SA (if I'm lucky) currently 2 different car clubs are researching the history for me.

Are you saying that Detroit builds for export were knock down?

Edited by TomP (see edit history)
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Yes they did not ship complete cars from Windsor Ontario or Detroit Michigan. I understand the import duties would have been prohibitive. The upholstery was invaribly done in England with local leather. The electrical systems were 12 volt and Lucas. The engines were smaller displacement for better VAT tax or whatever it was then. It was based on horsepower which the British used a formula using displacement to come up with a figure,apparently regardless of how much horsepower the beast produced. The crowns of the front fenders were adorned with running lights and this was by law. We eventually got them over here but not for several years. But your '33 should have them IF it was assembled in Kew Gardens. Which it appears it was not. I'm not sure what's going on here but it appears you have an odd ball that was sent over in one piece to South Africa from Detroit. This is unusual. I have articles in Canadian magazines stating that in any given year approx. 20,000 cars and Commercial Cars (light trucks-with or without bodies) were shipped from Canadian plants to the British Commonwealth,South Africa being on the list. The reason for that was better import duties for Ford,Chrysler and G.M. through their Canadian factories because Canada ,being part of the British Commonwealth, got preferential import duties. That's why the Aussies,New Zealanders,Danish,Swedes,Brits,etc. today are always finding the build tag on the firewall says Windsor (Chrysler and Ford) or Oshawa Ont. (G.M. products). When the prince decided he would marry that American divorced woman and give up the throne,he drove into exile,actually to the English Channel to board a boat to take him and her to France, in his 1937 McLaughlin Buick built by G. M. in Oshawa Ont. So I'm a little confused how an American built car got into South Africa in the 1st place.

Edited by DodgeKCL (see edit history)
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  • 4 weeks later...

What I have found is that the front bumper I have is not Plymouth, it has the dip in the middle section but also has a centre fixing hole and one either end on the return. (could be Citroen Traction)

I have found this photo of a 33 listed on an internet auction house. The fixing covers that Chris mentioned are clear to see on that car.

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Do you mean the dress plate around the bracket to frame horn bolt? If you look carefully you can see the head of the bolt showing. There is no dress cover over those. I don't know where the elder Mr. Brown at N.C. Industries got his dress cover from but he has created a lot of confusion over the years by selling it in his '32-'35 Plymouth catalog and offering it in chrome as well to really aggravate things. But he was killed in a light plane crash several years ago and his son(s) run the company now and know nothing about what he set up those many years ago.

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​OK understand what you are saying, no they do not appear in the 1933 parts list. What I could do with is the dim of the 2 fixing holes as marked in photo and also what the stand-off from the horns to the back face of the bumper blade.

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To muddy the water a bit, the base of the two piece stamped cover is listed for '33 in the '28-33 Master Parts Book. The 1934 Plymouth parts book lists the base and top. IIRC the '36-48 parts book shows both the base and top for some later Plymouths too. So yes, I agree with DodgeKCL that the top stamped piece is incorrect for '33. But I believe it is correct for '34 and later. And, near as I can tell, they should always be black.

There is a special bolt for that too. Unfortunately I only have a part number so can't deduce things like length and thread. But the flats across the hex are 3/4 inch on the ones I've seen. Looks a bit like a lug bolt with a tall area for the hex flats and a bit of radius on the top.

I think I've seen '33 PD bumper reproductions listed. Maybe by N/C or maybe by Buckeye Rubber. So if you are missing the correct bumper and can't find a vintage one that might be a possibility. A company that makes the bumper might also be able to help in getting the correct brackets.

Edited by ply33 (see edit history)
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Hi Tom, I will get that dimension later this week. I bought a front bumper face bar with dip from Paul Bowling at Buckeye back in the 1990's. It is quite nice. I was lucky enough to find an original rear face bar in decent shape. It would be nice to get more information on the special bolt as I thought it was just a standard bolt. Chris

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. . . It would be nice to get more information on the special bolt as I thought it was just a standard bolt. Chris

I've just updated my parts database to include what I know about that bolt. See: Plymouth Parts Interchange: Group 1 — Accessories

I was pretty sure that the '34 used the same cover plate base as '33 but a quick look at the '34 parts book confused me.

Anyway, for reasons unknown the PC and PD use different nuts and washers for the same bolt. And the PC nuts and washers are in the standard parts section of the parts book so that gives the threads for the bolt. I measured the head of one of those bolts at a Plymouth Owners Club national meet and I've included the head description in my database. So the unknown is the length of the bolt.

By the way the plate/base for the cover is listed as being available in prime, paint or enamel. My interpretation of that is that it could be body color (prime or paint) or black (enamel). I believe this means that the color should match the fenders (black for many of the color schemes, body color for the schemes like Bahama Green where the fenders matched the body).

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Ply33, As always great info. The bolt description sounds like it is shaped like an acorn "nut" but it is a "bolt"?

Not really an acorn as the radius is much less, more like they just rounded over the top of the bolt. I'm kicking myself for not taking a photo at the same time I was measuring the darned thing.

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Thanks Boys great information, and Mr T don't let the beggars get you down, the work you do is invaluable (we wont mention mechanical and hydraulic brakes here) ;)

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​OK understand what you are saying, no they do not appear in the 1933 parts list. What I could do with is the dim of the 2 fixing holes as marked in photo and also what the stand-off from the horns to the back face of the bumper blade.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]203144[/ATTACH]

Just measured the distance between the two oval head mounting bolts in the center of the front bumper and got exactly 14" center to center.

Stand off of the bumper is harder to measure. Directly in front of the frame horn, fender to back of bumper, is about 6 3/4" at top and 5 3/8" at bottom. Back of bumper is pretty vertical, the difference in distance is because the fenders are sloped. The "back bar" as the parts book calls the stand/mount/bracket, has a slight twist to it so that the bumper can be vertical while the base can rest against the fenders. Given age, probable bumps during the years, etc. the measurements probably varies some from car to car.

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Tom, I can confirm the 14 inch center to center dimension on front face bar. The rear is 24 inches. Next week I will see if I can fit my brackets to these bars, photograph them, and measure them. I am still waiting for the "lean back and put my feet up on the desk time" that I thought would happen when I retired from my desk job! Chris

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Chris those blades look great, think my rear will come up ok, did I read somewhere that your front is a repo.? when you get a minute could you measure across the outside fixings on the front are so that I can compare it to the one I have.

Many thanks.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Another mystery bracket

Found this bracket in a box of bits but I only seem to have the RHS, is this the right place for it??

Looks generally correct for one of the two brackets for an optional trunk rack. Can't say for sure as I don't have them and I haven't looked close enough on cars that do.

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  • 5 months later...

While looking through a box of parts I found the Left hand luggage rack bracket so that's part of the mystery solved but it brings another problem, I now have the Luggage Rack and the 2 brackets but NO linkage,so if somebody has a sketch or photos of the links and where they fit it would help. Not sure if the rack on a 34 Dodge was similar but I have found http://forums.aaca.org/f143/slow-progress-but-getting-there-331466-19.html Post # 463 although I can't get my head round how it would look in the laid down position because there are 2 holes at the front of the bracket that seam to be fixed to the same link preventing it from moving. Some time ago I tried to sort it using hardboard links but it's difficult without the body being on to judge the position.

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Tom--Hopefully this will simplify rather than complicate things. Attached is a series of pictures of the trunk rack on my 34 PE sedan, as well as of another rack and bracket set I picked up at a swap meet last year. I think you will find that the 2 holes at the front of the bracket are different diameters, one of them smaller. That smaller hole is for a locking pin or 'screw' as the parts book calls it to lock the rack in place when it is 'up' without a trunk on it. The ends of the two brackets, one straight (the one to the rear) and one curved (the one to the front) are attached to the support brackets and to the rack with bolts. In my pictures you can see I have substituted a pin and cotter pin for the small screw (easier to remove, no tools required on the road). When it is removed, the trunk rack can swing down flat to have a trunk placed on it. Don't know if you have the four brackets, but the straight ones are 3/8" bar stock, 7/8" wide and 6-1/4" overall, with the holes 5-1/2" on center. I'll make you a drawing of the curved one if you don't have it. Two things: The number of combinations of racks and brackets across 33-34 is staggering but the Plymouth ones are general the same and the Dodge ones different, due to the shape of the rear of the Dodge body 'ducktail' on the 34s. The 33 support brackets, much like the spare tire holder, bolt into the vertical flange of the rear cross-member as opposed to the 34s, which bolt through the top of the cross-member. Some have the supporting cross-rods above the panel, some below. However, I believe the racks themselves and the 4 swiveling brackets, are the same, Dodge and Plymouth, 33 and 34, with the sole exception being the boss at the top which is either for the Plymouth shield or the Dodge Wings. Second thing, forgive the sawdust all over everything, I was cutting up some plywood in the garage this past weekend... . SMB

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Scott that information is brilliant and answers all my questions, it was the locking screw holes that were muddying the water, if you get time perhaps you could sketch-up the curved link which would make life a lot easier for me. Your comment on the different combinations would explain what all the other holes are there for. All I will be missing then is the Plymouth shield and the protection runners.

Thank you so much for your post.

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Tom--Here is a photo of the 'curved link' bracket and a diagram of its dimensions, best I could do. The link, like the straight one, is 3/8" thick stock, 7/8" wide. Using the letter and number designations on the drawing, these are the other dimensions:

Hole 'A'--7/16"; Hole 'B'--11/32"; Hole 'C'--3/8". Hole 'C' is where the bracket attaches to the rack. Attaches with a 3/8 SAE x 1" bolt, with a nut and starwasher.

Other dimensions: 1. 7 3/8"; 2. 6 5/8"; 3. 5 1/4"; 4. 1 5/16; 5. 1 3/4"; 6. 7/16"; 7. 7/16"; 8. 7/8". SMB

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Interesting that the support bars are different than the ones I posted for Tom, probably because the main bracket is configured differently. Tom's is a 33 so he should probably see you about the support bars rather than use the dimensions I posted from my 34--clearly the locking pin hole is in a different position and the curved bar appears to be longer.

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And to REALLY CONFUSE THINGS, here is a set of purportedly 33 Plymouth trunk rack brackets currently on Ebay, supposedly from a sedan. Completely different from all the above versions. As I indicated in my prior post, there are numerous versions listed in the parts books. Absent casting or parts numbers, hard to tell exactly which one is appropriate.

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