Torque Ball Dynaflow 1953 Super

[WillBilly53]

So I went through the entire rigamarole of replacing the torque ball retainer, gasket and seal last year. but I seem to have a leak at the inner retainer and tail housing of the Dynaflow. I went to replace the thrust pad mount and it dripped pretty steady probably about a half pint. Now it's just a slow drip about every 5 secs. Do I have to go through the whole process of pulling the rear end back again and replace the gaskets (shims)?

[Guest NikeAjax]

When I did this on my '56 I found on my initial pull, both sides were vulcanized, and the one I got only had rubber on one side, "M-F, SOB!!!!" Then when I had my tranny rebuilt, I discovered they changed them a bit later that year.

Sounds to me like you may not need the gaskets? Perhaps yer about a cagillionth-off, an' that's why yer leakin'--just a thought. My tranny guy didn't use any of the gaskets that came with the rebuild kit!

Jaybird

[old-tank]

So I went through the entire rigamarole of replacing the torque ball retainer, gasket and seal last year. but I seem to have a leak at the inner retainer and tail housing of the Dynaflow. I went to replace the thrust pad mount and it dripped pretty steady probably about a half pint. Now it's just a slow drip about every 5 secs. Do I have to go through the whole process of pulling the rear end back again and replace the gaskets (shims)?

[ATTACH]194769[/ATTACH]

I see the leak in your picture, but where are the bolts? If all you need is gasket change, cut the new gaskets at the top, loosen the retainer enough to get the gaskets in place and use you favorite sealer, especially at the cut at the top. You don't need to shim and check drag with that type of outer torque ball retainer.'

Willie

[WillBilly53]

thanks jaybird and oldtank. the bolts are out at the moment as I needed to remove them to remove that u-shaped plate the holds the thrustpad in place. I'll get the gaskets out and rebolt as jaybird said first and see if I still have a problem. If it still leaks I'll do what you said oldtank. thanks!

[Guest NikeAjax]

Hey, what if you just unbolt the cover and remove the gaskets one at a time?!?!?!?! This should be a whole heckuva lot easier than pulling the rear-end etc.! You'd be destroying them to remove them this way but at least you won't have to play "28-Days Later", that is, crazed-zombie bent on destruction of anyone within your reach!

Jaybird

[buick5563]

You DO at least need the gaskets between the retainer and back of the transmissions and the outer retainer plus sealant. Silicone will work, but I prefer permatex gasket maker. Willie is correct that with the vulcanized retainer, you don't need the shims (thin paper). Those (I believe) were used with the old style machined retainer which your car came with.

[Guest NikeAjax]

Yeah... what he said:o Sorry, I was lumping the shims and gaskets into one, as in the first posting... So, I think, we have a consensus, get rid of those danged shims: pull the cover back and remove them--simple, no?

Jaybird

[WillBilly53]

thanks fellers. i was lumping the shims and gaskets together in my head as well. now I know what to do!

[Guest NikeAjax]

Just thinkin' out loud here, but, if need be, you can cut yer own gasket, and put a neat slice at the top, to get it in without takin' the whole dang apart again, an' use some RTV to seal up said cut, so it doesn't turn into a capillary...

Jaybird

[buick5563]

I believe that is what Willie was suggesting as well.

That is what I would do rather than the disconnecting of everything / pulling back, etc.

Good Luck Will, I hope it isn't a failure of the vulcanization. That'd be a real bummer.

[Guest NikeAjax]

Geez Mike, you think yer so smart 'cause you can like read an' stuff;) So it is...

Jaybird

[Guest shadetree77]

Sorry to hijack this thread guys but I was working on my torque ball today then I came home and found this thread. I have a question or two. First, I got one of the new type of outer retainers with the vulcanized rubber on it. Just to make sure, that kind of retainer negates the use of a torque ball boot right?

Second, Willie, you're saying that with this new type of retainer I do not need to check the drag with the wooden dowel and a spring scale? I spent an hour today making that darn wooden stick! Ruined a perfectly good shop broom too.:mad: I was going to go buy a spring scale tonight. That would be great if I didn't need it.

Third, my kit came with 3 gaskets. I was treating them as shims as I didn't know any better. I put one between the trans and the inner retainer with some gasket tack. No sealant or silicone, just tack. Again, I didn't know any better at the time. I put the other two between the inner and outer retainers(like shims). I didn't put anything on these. Did I screw this up? Is this thing gonna' leak like a sieve?

[Guest NikeAjax]

Howdy Robert! Well Hoss, before you go takin' it apart, tighten it to spec. and see if it does leak... You do have lock-washer on those bolts/nuts--RIGHT!(just tryin' ta save you some grief) If it does leak, take out the shims and jus' leave the washer, whichever that one may be... least this is what I'd do...

Jaybird

[old-tank]

Robert

No torque ball boot is needed, and no shimming/adjusting needed. Just use two of the "shims" as gaskets...if you used more, it will probably be ok. If it leaks at the vulcanized outer torque ball retainer, just loosen and take out some of the extra shims. Also if too many shims make it too loose, it will vibrate on deceleration.

I used to have a 58 Flightpitch manual that detailed the use of the vulcanized outer torque ball retainer --- maybe Smartin can post so you don't have to take my word for it.

Willie

[Guest NikeAjax]

"take out the shims and jus' leave the washer"

What the King meant to say was, GASKET!(sorry that's a REALLY old joke hope y'all got it)

Jaybird

PS, Yarrrr, don't be worryin' 'bout takin' over no threads, we be here ta learn, ALL'A US!

[Guest shadetree77]

Thanks guys. I basically put that thing back together based on instinct. Good to know I didn't totally screw it up. Here's to hoping that she doesn't leak....much.

[WillBilly53]

yep done and done. thanks guys. I used the permatex gasket sealer (In my confusion I had only used the paper shims and not the gaskets and didn't use sealant before - woops!) No leaks as of yet - at least at the torque ball

[buick5563]

Did you actually put fluid in?

[WillBilly53]

Yep! I drained the Dynaflow and cleaned the surfaces of the retainers and tail. Cut the gaskets at the top and then put on a nice bead of the permatex. Put everything back together and let it sit overnight, then filled her back up with trans fluid. Not a drop yet. I guess we'll really see when I take her around the block

[avgwarhawk]

Resurrecting this thread. I replaced my three speed manual. I have the vulcanized torque ball seal. It was there with the transmission in the Buick. I reused it. Looked good to me. Simply a great idea if installed correctly. No shims and the procedures in the manual are not required. Bolt on and go. However, this thread has an invaluable piece of information. When I replaced the trans and mounted the vulcanized torque ball seal I created two gaskets. The first gasket went between the retainer and transmission housing. The second went between the retainer and torque ball seal housing. The seal at the articulating point on the assembly did leak. Small drips. Yesterday I removed the gasket per the instruction on this thread. Applied a small amount of RTF sealant and secured the torque ball seal assembly to the transmission. Leaking issue solved. A gasket is not needed. Currently I have a leak free Buick. Nothing, no where, zero, zilch, nada. Oddly enough, it is a nice feeling.

['51 Special]

avgwarhawk-

You write: " I replaced my three speed manual. I have the vulcanized torque ball seal. It was there with the transmission in the Buick." I may be reading too much into this, but do you have a vulcanized torque ball seal on a standard transmission car? If so, I'd really like to know where to find such a thing. So far as I have been able to find suppliers, the vulcanized seals are available only for dynaflows.

'51 Special

[avgwarhawk]

51 Special, that is correct. I have a three speed manual in my 54. The torque ball is a vulcanized version that does not require paper shim/gaskets or the use of a dowel stick as shown in the manual to get the proper drag. Simply bolt and go. It looks exactly as pictured in the original posters post showing the torque ball seal leaking only mine is a manual. These are available from Bobs Automobilia and CARS. Not sure if a version for a 51 is available.

This is the torque ball on my 54. It has the vulcanized seal as far as I can tell. No shims or gaskets needed. Same squared off top and bottom as seen in the OP picture above.

This looks to be it. Fine print says it fits 48 on up. The tail of the dynaflow and manual transmissions look to be the same.

http://bobsautomobilia.com/shop/transmission/torque-ball-retainer-revulcanized-1956-60-core-included-tbr-483.html

Edited January 7, 2014 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

['51 Special]

avgwarhawk-

Wow! Such an excellent and thorough description of the process. My problem was a bit different. My 51 Special was sitting unused for years as it dumped copious amounts of ATF, even when sitting idling. I couldn't find anyone who had ever taken a dynaflow apart, let alone was skilled, and the only person willing to look at it wanted a grand just to see if he could figure out how to stop the leaking. I hadn't done much mechanical work since I was a kid (45+ years ago), but one thing I remembered was switching a 51 Chev with a busted powerglide to a standard transmission. No big deal, the only required fabrication was a transmission mount. What could be harder about a Buick?

Well, as I found out, lots could be harder about a Buick. But one of the hardest was the tailshaft/u-joint/torque ball. In the end, I cobbled together pieces from three, with the only usable torque ball and retainer coming out of a 46 or 47 Super. Paper shim/gaskets and made and used the dowel stick as shown in the manual to get the proper drag.

I learned that Buick's transition from all-standard to (virtually) all-automatic transmissions lasted several years, and during the first few years (including 51) the torque ball and retainer were not the same for the standard and dynaflow. The suppliers of new and rebuilt parts appeared not to list any vulcanized retainer applicable to my set-up. Perhaps I should have called.

In any event, I did end up with 1940s technology. It works, and doesn't (so far) leak. And, of course, any gear lube working its way back from the standard transmission to the differential won't wreck anything. I just wish I hadn't done all of this a couple of years before you posted.

'51 Special

[avgwarhawk]

My situation was just dumb luck really. I had ordered the shim/gasket kit. Fully prepared to shim and use the dowel stick as described in the manual. Heck, I was eyeballing my wife's broomstick as my dowel! When the kit arrived the diameter of the pieces(gaskets) in the kit were much smaller than the mating surface on the tail of the manual transmission and the torque ball retainer. I recalled removing the torque ball retainer assembly during disassembly and having just a thin paper gasket. There certainly was not any layered gaskets, etc. So, being a good Steward of drip free cars, I made a gasket anyway with what I had in gasket material. Assembled everything only to find a drip when the Buick was stationary in the garage. Finding this thread describing removing any gasket material between the sealing torque ball assembly and the torque ball retainer is the answer to pesky leaking.

I feel you pain with leaking. After removing the gasket the manual is leak free. In fact, all drip pans have been taken off my garage floor.

[Joseph P. Indusi]

Need a clarification for a 1953 Special with Dynaflow. My car has a boot covering the torque ball and it is kind of distorted but does not leak a whole lot but the area is wet with ATF. I assume that this may be the original as this car only has 64K miles and I believe they used the boot in 1953. From all these posts I get the impression that if I replace the torque ball seal, I will not want the large boot. I suppose I will want a new inner retainer, the shaft seal to prevent leakage to the differential, and an outer torque ball seal that has rubber bonded to the inside. I further assume that I will not need any gaskets between the two retainers but will need a gasket between the inner retainer and the transmission rear face and a gasket where the torque tube bolts on to the the torque ball.

Could one of the experts assembled here confirm my assumptions if correct or advise me where I am wrong.

Thanks.

Joe, BCA 33493

[avgwarhawk]

From what I understand the boot is original equipment and designed(from what I believe) to keep dirt out. From my experience and a few others (I believe Shadetree) the boot is not necessary when a vulcanized torque ball covering is utilized. When I tackled my 3 speed I found no boot and did not get a replacement. However, the boot can be used if desired. You will want a shaft seal in the torque tube proper to keep fluid from leaking/running to the differential. Correct, the outer torque ball with large rubber seal bonded does not need a paper gasket. Using a thin coat of your preferred RTV sealant between this part and the inner torque ball retainer is enough. As far as the inner torque ball retainer a gasket between this part and the transmission housing can be used. However, I would think RTV sealant would be enough. This is not a high fluid pressure situation that I'm aware of. The vulcanized torque ball is simply the better design and highly recommended by yours truly. I'm drip free.

Edited January 8, 2014 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[MrEarl]

Chris et al, is the outer dimensions of the vulcanized tb the same as the original, and if so will a boot still fit?

[avgwarhawk]

Chris et al, is the outer dimensions of the vulcanized tb the same as the original, and if so will a boot still fit?

I did not have a boot present when I removed the entire transmission. I can not state with certainty a boot will fit however I do recall while investigating the vulcanized version that the boot can be used if desired. At this juncture I do not see a need for the boot other than perhaps when the car is being judged. Not sure that is part of the judging criteria but imagine it is.

Found this. Gives an idea of what the boot looks like installed. I do not see why a boot would not work with the vulcanized version.

Edited January 9, 2014 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[Joseph P. Indusi]

I checked with Bob's Automobilia and their on-line catalog sells an outer retainer with the rubber bonded to the inside but warns that if any 1948-55 car has a boot on it then this retainer will not work. My assumption is that the torque ball that I have on this car is different than the later models without the boot.

Anybody have a source for an outer vulcanized retainer that will work with a 1953 DF with a boot? Do I need to buy a vulcanized outer retainer and a new torque bal, that will be compatible with it?

Any help greatly appreciated.

Joe, BCA 33493

[Erik]

The boot can be fitted but not attached. It is simply pressed up against the outer retainer. It works fine or has done so for me the last 7 years

[MrEarl]

Thanks Erik

[Joseph P. Indusi]

I think I have answered my own questions. I called Fatsco and spoke to a gentleman who said the seal kit they sell for 1953 to 1960 will work fine on my 1953. He indicated that the original boot can be discarded as several above have stated. The problem has come up with certain 1956 model years where the torque ball itself had rubber bonded to both the inside and the outside. He was not that clear on the use of gaskets between the inner and outer retainers, but said the torque ball will be very hard to move without a stick inserted into the end when installation is completed.

Joe, BCA 33493

[avgwarhawk]

Yes, it is hard to move the ball without a stick inserted into the tail of the u-joint when this vulcanized version is installed. As far as the gaskets between the inner and outer retainer he was not clear on most find a gasket is not required(also allowed a leak) and using a Permatex(or the like) between them is all that is required.

[Joseph P. Indusi]

OK, thanks Avgwarhawk.

Joe, BCA 33493

[brianpgh]

Hey folks, Brian here. New to forum with a few questions that you all might be able to help with

I've got a 53 super convertible that I am working on . I have a replacement torque ball retainer kit that I installed from CARS and am ready to put the rear end back in. After I installed the kit, I saw some comments about this supplier having issues with failures. Anyone out there used these with success? Mine was purchased years ago, and just got around to put in. I don't want to finish the job if it is going to fail. CARS claims that there are no issues they know of.

Second question. For the universal joint in the torque ball. Are there any retaining clips on the ends of the 4 way in the universal joint? Mine does not have any (if they are supposed to be there) and I notices some marks on the inside of the torque ball. The 4-way moves in the joint, so I am assuming it may have hit into the inside of the ball.

Appreciate any advice if the 4 way should move in the joints. This is a great forum to keep these old cars on the road. THANKS MUCH

[avgwarhawk]

Hey folks, Brian here. New to forum with a few questions that you all might be able to help with

I've got a 53 super convertible that I am working on . I have a replacement torque ball retainer kit that I installed from CARS and am ready to put the rear end back in. After I installed the kit, I saw some comments about this supplier having issues with failures. Anyone out there used these with success? Mine was purchased years ago, and just got around to put in. I don't want to finish the job if it is going to fail. CARS claims that there are no issues they know of.

Second question. For the universal joint in the torque ball. Are there any retaining clips on the ends of the 4 way in the universal joint? Mine does not have any (if they are supposed to be there) and I notices some marks on the inside of the torque ball. The 4-way moves in the joint, so I am assuming it may have hit into the inside of the ball.

Appreciate any advice if the 4 way should move in the joints. This is a great forum to keep these old cars on the road. THANKS MUCH

Unless the rubber seal on the new torque ball retainer is buggered it should be fine. Is it 100% guaranteed not to fail? No part is. Install and see how it goes. I re-installed mine after replacing a clutch. I get a small drip every now and then but it work just fine.

I have a 54 and the u-joint did not have retaining clips like you see on u-joints in open drive shafts. The marks inside the retainer are probably for the inner and outer retainer flexing as the suspension travels. I noticed these marks as well. I can say it was not from the U-joint.

[brianpgh]

thanks so much for the post. Appreciate your advice on the u-joint. Brian

[BillMadden]

I have two pretty important questions..... #1 Will I outlive this thread??? #2 Why does no one know a Buick Dynaflow is supposed to leak. You guys all have too much time on your hands.

[avgwarhawk]

I have two pretty important questions..... #1 Will I outlive this thread??? #2 Why does no one know a Buick Dynaflow is supposed to leak. You guys all have too much time on your hands.

Bill, I have a three on the tree in my Special. Yep, she drips every now and then from the torque ball seal.

And we do hope you outlive the thread!!

[buick5563]

And we do hope you outlive the thread!!

Yep