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Anti-ethanol additives


Enos
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I usually put Marvel "mystery" oil in the oil and gas.In an effort to combat the lousy E-10 problems, (gas mpg - 3 mpg etc) I am considering using Stabil or equivalent in the gas to negate the ethanol.... My question is ..is there any problem adding this to the Marvel. Thanks to all that reply.

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I'm probably overdoing it, and am sure some of the more well-informed will tell us all so.....

but I add 4 oz. of Marvel Mystery Oil ( and in lieu of leaded fuel, one oz. of Alemite CD-2 Lead "in the Delaware-Punch bottle" for the higher compression cars) to each 10 gallons of gas,

and I use one oz. of Star-tron per each 16 gallons if I can't get Ethanol-Free gas, but will drive a good distance to avoid Ethanol.

Mixing M.M.Oil, Star-tron, and a supplement instead of lead may just be extra expense but not that much when I consider some of the potential alternatives, and the horror stories. Besides, I don't drive the old cars as much as the modern ones.

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I usually put Marvel "mystery" oil in the oil and gas.In an effort to combat the lousy E-10 problems, (gas mpg - 3 mpg etc) I am considering using Stabil or equivalent in the gas to negate the ethanol.... My question is ..is there any problem adding this to the Marvel. Thanks to all that reply.

There isn't an additive in the world that can add to your engines efficiency or improve the energy content of the fuel you're using. Ethanol in your gas is going to cost you a few mpg's, period, but VERY few unless something is wrong. If your mileage drops more than 5% (i.e. 20 mpg drops to less than 19 mpg) going from "pure' gas to E10, then something's wrong with your engine fuel system or state of tune. ( HowStuffWorks "Why Fuel Additives Won't Improve Performance and Gas Mileage" )

Using an antioxidant, like Sta-Bil, will make the gas last longer, but that's about it. E10 fuels can accumulate small quantities of water which can have some corrosive properties for metal conponents, and there are additives to aid in preventing this (for a very good test see: http://www.biobor.com/Practical-Sailor-Fuel-Additives-That-Fight-Corrosion.php ). However none of them perform as well as keeping water out in the first place through proper storage and care.

If there's an additive out there that can protect against rubber and plastic breakdown in the presence of ethanol, I've yet to hear of it. Fuel system components (gaskets, seals, fuel lines, etc.) need to be updated with modern ethanol-resistant materials. They are not hard to come by.

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............... I use one oz. of Star-tron per each 16 gallons if I can't get Ethanol-Free gas, but will drive a good distance to avoid Ethanol.......

.

I agree with Marty's statement. We were really lucky in Huntsville, Alabama at the Founders Tour 2 weeks ago. There was an Ethanol-free station very close to us and they were doing a booming business.

If an antique car owner is lucky enough to have these stations nearby, you can save yourself a lot of grief without having to use all of these treatments that only cover up the symtoms....to some extent. (maybe Dave can supply that ethanol-free station-finder link that I have seen on here before.)

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pure-gas.org is a website to find No Ethanol gas

There are free Apps you can get on your I-phone :

One is Ethanol Free

another is:

Pure Gas

I have used both of these, and can assure you that they are helpful when travelling (but don't drive while using the app - let your navigator do the Look-Up

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pure-gas.org is a website to find No Ethanol gas

There are free Apps you can get on your I-phone :

One is Ethanol Free

another is:

Pure Gas

I have used both of these, and can assure you that they are helpful when travelling (but don't drive while using the app - let your navigator do the Look-Up

There are two caveats to using these lists of 'ethanol-free' outlets.

First, at best they list stations that sell ethanol-free gas when they can. Supposedly under the best of circumstances in most of the country that is only a possibility about 9 in 10 times when a station buys fuel from it's supplier. At least 10% of the time most stations have no choice but to sell e10. Non-e10 gas is rare and (because of these kinds of avoidance paranoia, justifiable or not) is in very high demand. It is frequently unavailable, and no gas station is going to sit empty waiting for "the right gas" to come along. (This may very well be why rural Conoco stations in the mid-west sell regular gas as "pure" for a 30 cent or so premium, but you can go through their web site and promotional material until you're blue in the face and not find any guarantee that there's no ethanol in the fuel.)

Second, these sites are often reliant on people (customers) reporting availability, the stations themselves are not necessarily the ones listing themselves as ethanol-free. MANY of the stations on those lists are places that cannot legally sell to passenger cars, which may be great for your lawnmower but meaningless (if it was meaningful in the first place) to your car. Also some of them are reported incorrectly simply because the "contains ethanol" decal was missing one day.

The bottom line is unless you test it before you pump it (and they do sell kits to do so), there's no certainty in avoiding ethanol. If you do find some "pure" gasoline, it should be available only in a relatively rural area and at a significant price premium..., but that is no assurance of what you're buying. It's best to prepare to be using this stuff, as many of us have been for decades now.

It is the future. And you're never going to preserve the past by trying to prevent the future.

Edited by Dave@Moon (see edit history)
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I agree with Dave, he is right on. There is one thing that he left out. Most collector cars don't drive a whole lot, and therefore, the fuel in their tanks doesn't get rotated enough. It is imperative that when the hot summers start to greet us, the collector car does not have winter formulated fuel in the tank. Winter gas is formulated to vaporize faster in cooler temps( flash off at about 105 f) and that is why old cars fuel starve or flat out vapor lock when a sudden hot day comes around, in the spring. Go on line and find out when the summer gas is first delivered to your area. It's a hassle, but I anticipate how far I plan on driving through the winter months. Then after April 15th, I can start to fill up again in Tucson. In Tucson there is no ethanol during summer months. Ron

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There isn't an additive in the world that can add to your engines efficiency or improve the energy content of the fuel you're using. Ethanol in your gas is going to cost you a few mpg's, period, but VERY few unless something is wrong. If your mileage drops more than 5% (i.e. 20 mpg drops to less than 19 mpg) going from "pure' gas to E10, then something's wrong with your engine fuel system or state of tune. ( HowStuffWorks "Why Fuel Additives Won't Improve Performance and Gas Mileage" )

Using an antioxidant, like Sta-Bil, will make the gas last longer, but that's about it. E10 fuels can accumulate small quantities of water which can have some corrosive properties for metal conponents, and there are additives to aid in preventing this (for a very good test see: http://www.biobor.com/Practical-Sailor-Fuel-Additives-That-Fight-Corrosion.php ). However none of them perform as well as keeping water out in the first place through proper storage and care.

If there's an additive out there that can protect against rubber and plastic breakdown in the presence of ethanol, I've yet to hear of it. Fuel system components (gaskets, seals, fuel lines, etc.) need to be updated with modern ethanol-resistant materials. They are not hard to come by.

Dave, we differ on 5% drop in mileage, and six of my cars is sufficient data to tell me if I have a state of tune problem and my experience of being in the automotive field for over forty years. All my cars experience a drop of 4mpg on 10% ethanol and when the gas is replaced with ethanol free fuel they are right back up there. The cars are a 1964, 1965, 1969, 1976, 2001, and 2012. That's quite a bit of fuel wasted considering the amount of vehicles in our country.

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Dave, we differ on 5% drop in mileage, and six of my cars is sufficient data to tell me if I have a state of tune problem and my experience of being in the automotive field for over forty years. All my cars experience a drop of 4mpg on 10% ethanol and when the gas is replaced with ethanol free fuel they are right back up there. The cars are a 1964, 1965, 1969, 1976, 2001, and 2012. That's quite a bit of fuel wasted considering the amount of vehicles in our country.

Your talking about a fuel (e10) which has just 10% of the gasoline replaced with another fuel that contains 2/3rds the energy per unit volume that the gasoline it replaced in the first place. Your post-OBD II cars should be compensating for that automatically, adjusting for a richer mixture to make up the difference (which amounts to less than 4% reduction in real energy available). Old cars may need tuning/adjustment to minimize the reduction in mileage. However unless you were talking about a 40 mpg car, and the 10% ethanol added to e10 gasoline were a totally inert/inflammable material that contributed nothing to energy content, a 4 mpg reduction is too much. That should not happen, and doesn't in any car in real & scientific testing. The tests have been linked here many times, but it's usually a matter of the reader's personal predisposition whether those links serve the discussion or not. The current last word on this subject, linked here for at least the third time, is this one from the Oak Ridge Lab done in 2008: http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/program/int_blends_rpt_1.pdf

I have a 50 mpg daily driver. I lose about 2 mpg or less with e10 in that car. My Triumph gets about 20-24 mpg depending on how I drive, as does my 1996 Ford Ranger. That variation is too big for me to even notice the loss due to e10 use, which here has been unavoidable for years. (As a result those reductions in mileage are from memory. Even on long distance highway trips I haven't used anything but e10 for at least 4 years.) However my data, like yours, is purely anecdotal and shouldn't be trusted. :rolleyes::)

Edited by R W Burgess (see edit history)
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Go to Stabil's website and if you read the fine print you will see the statement that Stabil Ethanol treatment WILL NOT protect rubber and plastic parts in our old vehicles. It will only protect against metal corrosion. Here in PA we have a lot of gas station that sell ethanol free gas but mostly 87 & 91 octane. A little too low for our higher compression engines though which require 93.5. Or go to a small local airport with a couple 5 gallon gas cans and they will most likely fill it with 93-96 octane w/lead for around $6.00 per gallon. They won't fill your car directly because that would be illegal and Obama would send his IRS goons after you.

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Your talking about a fuel (e10) which has just 10% of the gasoline replaced with another fuel that contains 2/3rds the energy per unit volume that the gasoline it replaced in the first place. Your post-OBD II cars should be compensating for that automatically, adjusting for a richer mixture to make up the difference (which amounts to less than 4% reduction in real energy available). Old cars may need tuning/adjustment to minimize the reduction in mileage. However unless you were talking about a 40 mpg car, and the 10% ethanol added to e10 gasoline were a totally inert/inflammable material that contributed nothing to energy content, a 4 mpg reduction is too much. That should not happen, and doesn't in any car in real & scientific testing. The tests have been linked here many times, but it's usually a matter of the reader's personal predisposition whether those links serve the discussion or not. The current last word on this subject, linked here for at least the third time, is this one from the Oak Ridge Lab done in 2008: http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/program/int_blends_rpt_1.pdf

I have a 50 mpg daily driver. I lose about 2 mpg or less with e10 in that car. My Triumph gets about 20-24 mpg depending on how I drive, as does my 1996 Ford Ranger. That variation is too big for me to even notice the loss due to e10 use, which here has been unavoidable for years. (As a result those reductions in mileage are from memory. Even on long distance highway trips I haven't used anything but e10 for at least 4 years.) However my data, like yours, is purely anecdotal and shouldn't be trusted. :rolleyes::)

Dave, I know what your saying, but I also know my figures. The interesting thing to me is one car, the 1965 gets 42mpg steady state at 105 kilometers a hour on non ethanol and with 10% ethanol under same conditions/same road 38 mpg and the 2012 car OBD2 CA emissions gets 42mpg @ 105 k/hr with non ethanol and 38mpg with 10%. Same road same conditions, same starting point. I'm using a mpg testing devise with a 1 1/2 gallon container 1/2 gallon of that is for reserve after the fuel runs out and using a GPS to get correct mph at a steady state. It can't get any simpler.

Edited by R W Burgess (see edit history)
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. . . In Tucson there is no ethanol during summer months. Ron

I guess it may take a few days to rotate out the winter stock in each filling station.

Only problem I've had with "modern gas" is an increased tendency for hot restart/drivability issues. Basically the fuel pump heat soaks, fuel in it vaporizes, it stops pumping and when the carburetor bowl runs dry - a minute or so after starting - the engine dies. The only time I've had that problem in California is when the ambient temperatures are in the mid-90s or higher and I've been driving the car hard. My quick on the side of the road fix is to pour a glass of drinking water on the fuel pump. That has worked every time and amuses my wife who thinks its interesting to have a car that can be fixed by pouring water on it.

I started having that hot restart issue in the '33 when I drove it to Tucson last April for a car show. And the ambient temperature never got above the mid-80s on that trip. Surprised me as I did not anticipate that being an issue. I left the Tucson metro area in the '33 on April 15th after filling the tank and still had the problem. Only cure for it was crossing the border into California and filling the tank with our "special" blend of fuel required pretty much year round.

. . .I have a 50 mpg daily driver. I lose about 2 mpg or less with e10 in that car. . .

My 2004 Prius, with an average 45 MPG since new (actual miles divided by actual gallons, not based on the optimistic dash display), dropped about 5% on mileage when California went to ethanol. I keep compulsive records on that so I'm pretty sure of the numbers.

Personal opinion: Replace the rubber components in your fuel system with ones made of materials that can take modern gas. If, like me, you develop heat related drivability issues then address those. I'm going to install the factory fuel pump heat shield that they introduced a few years after my car was built but even in the 1930s was retrofitted to earlier cars. I am pretty sure that will take care of my problem.

Then just buy the cheapest gas that meets the octane requirements of your car. If, like me, you have a pre-WW2 car then that will simply be the cheapest gas available.

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Certain areas of the fuel system need to be upgraded (Dave mentioned this).

Once the upgrades are done, then the best way (opinion) to combat the effects of the E-fuel is to START THE ENGINE MORE OFTEN!!!

Neopreme is listed by our government as ethanol-resistant (why, I do not know). Lots of more modern carburetors have neopreme accelerator pump diaphragms. Once the neopreme has been exposed to ethanol, and then allowed to dry (periods on non-use, and the evaporation of modern fuel), the neopreme tends to harden. Then when the owner again uses the vehicle and the neopreme has to flex, it cracks and then fails. A failed diaphragm often allows syphoning of the fuel, thus the engine will run extremely rich, if at all. Daily drivers seem to suffer much less from these effects. Carburetors with conventional plunger type accelerator pumps will also fail if neopreme rather than the more expensive leather is used; however the failure seems to be only that the accelerator pump ceases to function. Check valves used with conventional accelerator pumps prevent syphoning.

Dave - sorry, I cannot agree with you or your tests about fuel economy UNLESS ONE IS RUNNING VERY HIGH COMPRESSION ENGINES. With lower compression engines (early 1950's and earlier), the loss seems to be about the same as the percentage of ethanol in the fuel. In other words, just consider the ethanol as a "filler", with no useful component in the running of the engine. To avoid engine damage, we generally simply recalibrate the carburetor to flow the same additional fuel as the percentage ethanol in the fuel. I personally use Carters (metering rod technology) on my own vehicles, and carry different sets of rods in the glove box.

And yes Dave, I HAVE read the tests; however these tests do NOT reflect my own results, and we have to deal daily with others that do NOT get the reported test results. And I personally believe that most of the readers of this forum have sufficient intelligence to do their own fuel mileage calculations.

But this post was not meant to argue fuel economy, rather to suggest that the least expensive and most efficient additive to combat the reliability effects of ethanol is simply to start the engine more often.

Jon.

Edited by carbking (see edit history)
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.....But this post was not meant to argue fuel economy, rather to suggest that the least expensive and most efficient additive to combat the reliability effects of ethanol is simply to start the engine more often.

Jon.

Jon hit the nail on the head. We need to drive our antique cars more, even when the weather isn't perfect, if for no other reason than to keep them healthy. I now have gotten myself into this situation, too many cars. Even though you can find very reasonable buys out there, at some point you have more vehicles than you can keep happily driven. With fowled, (Whoops, FOULED- no chickens in my gas tanks!;)) gas tanks and dead batteries, you have to keep this in mind when increasing your fleet.

Wayne

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My experience also is to drive them. Had to store my '29 Plymouth for 6 months a year, no big deal. Would drain remaining gas from Kingston vacuum tank reservoir, but not carburetor. The following spring add about a pint of fresh gas to the Kingston, open the stopcock, turn on key, max choke and would start immediately. Then had to store for 18 months straight, what a nightmare! Electrical, carb, clutch. Needed a tow to get the poor thing home. I hope I never get in that position again. frank

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So the bottom line is that if you just leave the 10% Ethanol out, you will go as far on the gasoline remainder. Except that Ethanol is an octane improver so the ramainder of 87 PON E-10 would be about 84-85 octane.

In other words the E10 additive lets the refiners use a lower octane base (more from a barrel of crude) to achieve the needed PON.

Now if you want to add power (once) try some hydrazine.

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Using an antioxidant, like Sta-Bil, will make the gas last longer, but that's about it. E10 fuels can accumulate small quantities of water which can have some corrosive properties for metal conponents, and there are additives to aid in preventing this (for a very good test see: http://www.biobor.com/Practical-Sailor-Fuel-Additives-That-Fight-Corrosion.php ). However none of them perform as well as keeping water out in the first place through proper storage and care.

I use the newer Sta-bil Ethanol Treatment (Note: NOT the standard Fuel Stabilizer) which can be harder to find but for the reasons Dave mentioned. It prevents the water from separating out of the ethanol which can cause to poor starts or failure to start, even with relatively new fuel. Dave's comment about storing fuel is pertinent in the sense that we have no idea how much water is in a specific fuel stations underground tank, in the truck that delivered it, etc., all the open space within could collect water through condensation before the tank is filled and that water gets absorbed into the fuel then goes into your tank where it will separate again in short order, which is exactly what the Sta-bil Ethanol Treatment prevents. I only had occasional starting issues before and have noticed my car starts better since I have been using it, no issues since I introduced the product.

As far as mixing the two, I would contact each manufacturer and ask. Not worth risking the two products gelling or otherwise gumming up your fuel system if they are not compatible. Most mechanics will tell you stories about the mixtures they've encountered ruining systems over the years.

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I have never used Marvel Mystery Oil but I have put Sta-bil in my old cars regularly and have not had any fuel issues - yet. As I mentioned in a thread last year, I found that a local marina was selling pure gas and I filled up my LTD with that - for which a lot of you criticized me, saying it was likely not legal to do so. That tank of gas returned the lowest mpg I ever had with the car, but it did run a lot better - no hesitations, etc. This spring, I bought a small 2 cycle tiller and a lawn mower for my son from a local small engine store. Since I have had trouble with my snowblower, lawnmower and generator running poorly on ethanol laced gasoline, I asked the proprietor what he used and he said he put marine Stabil in all the gas he uses for his business and in what he sells. But what he told me is the same as what's been said here. Stabil does nothing but prolong the life of gasoline and the best thing for any gasoline engine and ethanol laced fuel is use. Regrettably, I'm only putting 200-300 miles a year on each of my cars now, barely enough to run a tank through them. The gas in them now has been in there since last October.

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When we first got ReFormulatedGasoline in the 1990s, in the depths of the Chevron website, there was a quite extensive section on how the new RFG fuels would act in our vehicles. Including an approximate 3% loss of fuel economy. At the time, I was driving my '70 Skylark (350-2bbl, CA emissions-spec). I didn't have the magnitude of "extended crank time" and such, but I did document a 3% loss of fuel economy, as the Chevron website said would happen. RFG had about 3% ethanol in it, for the "oxygenate" function. From that experience, I have NO doubt that 10% ethanol will result in a 6% loss in open-road highway cruise fuel economy.

As for all of the "tests", I have observed that those tests which tend to have the least harm from ethanol'd fuels are also funded by operatives "friendly" to the ethanol lobby. One author even was so brash as to claim HE (and HIS testing) was going to disprove ALL of the hype about how harmful ethanol was to ANY vehicle.

I'm not sure what it did to my lawn mower, but the Lucas "Green Stuff" (as I call it) fuel additive made it run better than new. It took about 20 minutes of run time to do it's magic, but it works. The spark plug is cleaner than new, starts on the first pull after sitting, and certainly seems like it's got more umphh when going through the tall grass. If I don't use it, after a few hours, it goes back into the running issues it used to have. MUCH less expensive than carb rebuilds each year! I'm not sure what it does or how it does it, but it does work in my lawn mower. When I put it in my Y2K Impala, I could see no difference in anything.

As for gas dispenser pump labels . . . they don't normally disappear from day to day. Once they're there, they usually don't fall off! BUT . . . some states mandate the use of labels for the amount of ethanol in the fuel, if it's actually there. If they sell ethanol'd fuel from a pump no so marked, that can get into some "truth" issues in many states which have laws about pump labelling.

I would suspect that stations which receive their fuel from a non-metro area service area's fuel terminal would stand a better chance of not having ethanol in their fuel. Providing the same fuel terminal services areas where ethanol'd fuel is required to be. Therefore, you might find ethanol'd fuels 100+ miles away from the metro area where such fuel is needed. As noted, the fuel lists are only as good as the information they receive.

I ran across some new fuel additive at the local Home Depot the other day. Supposed to revitalize old fuel, too! Plus compensate for the negative affects of ethanol'd fuels, too. I'd previously found the fuel additive "Pri-G" (made in Houston?) which is the preferred choice (allegedly) of fuel additives for the emergency generator owners. Check out their website (via a Google search).

I concur with the "start and drive then" orientation of vehicle maintenance. Some people can put it on the calendar and make it happen. Others have other "distractions" which might disrupt that schedule. Plus "forgetfullness", too! If you're really going to do that, the engine will probably need to run for about an hour to not cause other side issues and such. BUT many municipalities have laws against "unattended vehicles with the engine running". Not to mention issues with exhaust fume intrusion into residential structures! This can make "get 'em out and drive 'em" a better choice . . . even without willing co-conspirator fellow club members.

Hope everybody's made it through the recent "weather" in one piece!

NTX5467

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Jon hit the nail on the head. We need to drive our antique cars more, even when the weather isn't perfect, if for no other reason than to keep them healthy. I now have gotten myself into this situation, too many cars. Even though you can find very reasonable buys out there, at some point you have more vehicles than you can keep happily driven. With fowled, (Whoops, FOULED- no chickens in my gas tanks!;)) gas tanks and dead batteries, you have to keep this in mind when increasing your fleet.

Wayne

No, AACA Past president and director of legislation Herb Oakes hit the nail on the head in the current issue of our club's magazine, page 20. Since our club has 60,000 plus members and this forum has other like minded people not in the club participating on the forum we ALL need to make our views known to government.

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On a recent visit to the local Advanced Auto parts store I discovered a fuel additive for ethanol fuel. Add to your gas tank on fill up to help with performance problems. I bought it and put it my '99 2.0 liter Mercury Tracer, '05 2.5 liter Jetta, and '97 2.0 liter Jetta, and after 1 tankful per car the performance had improved, and so had the miles per gallon. Cost about $10.00 per bottle. Produced by LUCAS.

I recently had the horror of seeing an intake manifold from a 30,000 mile car that dropped a valve. The intake ports were burnt BLACK! E-10 was probably the culprit. Also ethanol has a nasty habit of ruining fuel injectors.

Bill Hirsch sells a fuel additive that is claimed to preserve fuel for up to 3 years. I've been using it for 15 plus years, and it works in both 4 cycle and 2 cycle engines. I never drain the fuel from my lawn mower, or Mantis tiller, and never have start up problems when spring arrives. Never had a problem with fuel in my antique cars either. I asked Bill at Hershey if his fuel treatment would work with ethanol fuel. He claimed it does, and my experience has proven him to be correct.

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Many newer engines take their PCV air just behind the throttle plates of the throttle body, not unlike it used to come in in the carb's baseplate. This CAN contribute to a blackened intake manifold, internally, as there is NO fuel to keep things cleaner in there. The fuel now enters just upstream of the intake valve, NOT at the entry to the intake manifold. With the newer direct-injected gasoline engines, such deposits can be worse as the ONLY air in the manifold and intake ports is "dry flow", rather than the "wet flow" of the earlier carbureted or throttle body injected engines.

I don't believe you can blame THAT on E10, unfortunately.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

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