Knock

[Machiner 55]

OK thanks.

It's Z O'clock. Gotta go.

John F.

[padgett]

L67 is great in a Fiero, bit wasted in a Reatta.

[Machiner 55]

TJ55,

I understand where you're coming from but, since I don't know the root cause of the scoring I wouldn't want to take a chance of going though the trouble of polishing the journals and replacing the bearings only to have the same thing happen again.

It looks to me like material of some sort got into the oil to cause the damage, due to the fact that the worst scoring is in the center of the bearings/journals where the oil port is. Also, it doesn't look as though there was a case of oil starvation because Id expect to see evidence of overheating. Bluing and such. There is none.

I'd never be satisfied that what ever caused the failure was completely removed from the engine.

John F.

[DAVES89]

John, I use www.car-part to do my cross referencing for me. They are 99% accurate and you know what the best prices are and what yards have the parts you need. I did a quick look for Indiana and $300.00 is about the average price with some as low as $225.00.

Speaking with 2 seater one day [at Gibson's, where else?] and he told me that the 1988 3800 has a more powerful engine due to the cam.

Easy way to pick up about 15-20 horse...

[padgett]

I agree it looks like oil contamination. Could be someone never changed an oil filter (I replace at every oil change), it clogged, and the bypass opened. That said I cannot tell how bad (why I asked about the fingernail test). I'd be more concerned about the erratic oil pressure and would want to take a clse look at the relief in the oil fillter housing (four bolts and one connector).

The problem is that as our cars age we really do not know what they have been through. My experience is that the oiling system is very robust and the georotor pump is much better than a gear pump. (other than a very few '90s whose cam bearings walked).

Will admit to being a bit fanatical (and cringe at some of the antics on "Wheeler Dealers"). Revving a cold engine is sillier than reviing an engine at shutdown. Endurance racing taught me that you can be both fast and gentle (IMNSHO to be really fast requires being gentle unless drifting which isn't fast).

[TexasJohn55]

John, believe me, I completely understand your viewpoint. I am not the one investing time and worry on your car,"a man has got to do what a man has gotta do." I would add that yours is a very considered and justifiable decision. Best of luck to you, hope it turns out good. TJ55

[Machiner 55]

That said I cannot tell how bad (why I asked about the fingernail test). I'd be more concerned about the erratic oil pressure and would want to take a clse look at the relief in the oil fillter housing

Yah, the fingernail test. The scoring was pretty well defined and could be felt with the nail. Consensus elsewhere on the net said that was cause for pulling the crank.

Re. the erratic pressure. It develops once the engine warms up but holds relatively steady in the low 30's till that happens.

TJ55,

Besides not knowing the root cause of the condition, another concern would be how to get the remnants/particles of the oxide cloth out of the oil ports and channel once I was done. I guess there's a way to flush it while still in the block but not having done it before, I don't know it.

Dave,

Thanks for the link and the updated info.

John F.

[padgett]

a) pipe cleaners - coat with axle grease and particles will stick. Can also fill passage with compressed blue towel then pull out from both sides & cut when done.

one of the cam bearing sysmptoms was "light on" oil pressure at idle (less than 6 psi), 19 psi at speed.

Edited May 29, 2013 by padgett (see edit history)

[Machiner 55]

one of the cam bearing sysmptoms was "light on" oil pressure at idle (less than 6 psi), 19 psi at speed.

I didn't experience this but that's not to say something like this didn't happen in the past. PO receipts show that at,

68,318 mi. - intake manifold oil leak reported.

95,248 mi. - Oil filter adapter gasket, oil level sensor, rear main seal and oil pan gasket were replaced at the same time. Sumpin go'n on there.

The car had 103K on it when I got it.

John F.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Machiner 55
Added purchase mileage. (see edit history)

[padgett]

The low oil pressure does not heal. Mine was the same for over 1,000 miles (dealer said gauge was bad so we driove home from Indiana). Not all bad, was in my garage when I found the truth.

R&R of the oil filter adapter would be one way to introduce grit into the oil system.

Edited May 29, 2013 by padgett (see edit history)

[Machiner 55]

Padgett,

Ok then. What your saying is that once your oil pressure issue developed, the oil pressure dropped to "at idle (less than 6 psi), 19 psi at speed." and remained that way all the time. Example: You go out to the car in the morning and start the car. Vroom, Vroom and the pressure at cold idle is 6psi. You drive away down the highway and the pressure climbs to 19psi. You drive to "Benny's on the Beach" in Lake Worth grab a Harvey Wall-Banger (just one, mind you) start the car again and it still registers 6 at idle and 19 highway. you get back home and sleep it off (because you really had more than one HWB) then you go out to the car in the morning (late) start the car and met with the same (or similar) 6-idle & 19 hwy.

My situation is a pattern that repeats. When cold, after sitting all night, The pressure after start-up is in the mid to low 30's and the engine is purring along generating nothing but normal engine noises. Only after driving 15-20 minutes (city or highway, doesn't matter) does the pressure start to drop and fluctuate. This then is the time at which the knocking noise develops. If you agree with what was just said, then I'm thinking that there are two different root causes at work here. Yours being the spun cam bearing(s) and mine being some other.

Your suggestion that some foreign/abrasive material/debris was introduced into the lubrication system when the adapter gasket was changed out may very well be right on.

I bought the car with 103k miles on it. The gaskets were changed at 95,248. Roughly 7,752 in between. Plenty of time for a knock to develop and make someone to decide to get rid of a car they'd already spent nearly $15,000 in repairs on. May have been the last straw. "That's it, no more spending good money after bad!" Anyway...

After reviewing the shop receipts and becoming intimate with the car, it seems that everything, and I mean everything, that was worked on was done poorly and, in my opinion, unprofessionally. Most of the work was done at a "tire/auto repair place" but, the gasket work was done at a Buick GMC dealership. As some of the work was done at a dealership, they charged the guy brain surgeons rates. The poor Bas**rd that paid good money to this outfit got the Sh*t end of the stick and wasn't even aware of it. I know he wasn't because he kept going back to them. That's what happens when you don't know anything about machines and have to rely on others "expertise".

So, you may ask yourselves why I bought this car in the first place. All details were conducted via E-mail. Numerous photos were provided. The listing said the engine was running great and there were no known problems, no leaks (bull-crap). Before purchasing a one-way airline ticket to go get the car, I asked what my chances of making it home with out any problems "50-50, 70-30, or 100%".(was told no problem, 100% sure) Once I boarded the plane, I was pretty much committed.

Looking back though, I have to say that I don't regret having made the purchase. Aside from that listed above and some other items that require attention, I'd have still bought the car. The body is in really great shape as well as the interior. It was garaged and rarely driven. The tires were purchased in 2004 (about 23k miles ago) and they still have plenty of tread as well as, what my son referees to as "fur". The little thin spiky thingies, remnants of the molding process that are on all new tires.

I'd have probably bought it sans engine for the same price that I gave.

So........... I guess the real take away from all this is that there was an opportunity for oil contamination down-line of the filter

Which is the only way the bearing degradation makes sense, since there appears to be no evidence of oil starvation due to spun cam bearing(s) other causes.

John F.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Machiner 55
Added Dealership info and "looking back..." and "take-away" (see edit history)

[padgett]

Well think it may have gone to 30 briefly at high when fired up on a freezing morning but once it dropped to a normal idle that was all she wrote.

Being odd, after the dealer I had the oil and filter changed to 10W-40 Valvoline (normally run 10W-30) for the trip home "just in case". Was dead quiet and ran perfectly into the garage, main and rod bearings looked new but since there was no reliable way to replace spun/walked cam bearings, I bought a whole long block. Think this was in 1989 and paid $450. Made the mistake of having it drop shipped from Chrystal River to Orlando and they broke virtually every exposed sensor, broke one of the Magnavox coil terminals, & bent the front exhaust manifold. Replaced all from my original & ran fine for the next 50,000 miles until it was sold. Was bought new in 1990 and think it was sold in 2006.

Agree your issue and mine sound different so a bit of polishing, new bearings (can do in car) & should be fine.

Years ago had a good frient who had a Pontiac motor completely gone through, no-expense-spared. New .002 (that's two thousandths) bearings, three angle valve job, new cam and lifters, balanced.

Ran great for a week then started making noise. Seems the shop that polished the crank didn't clean out the oil passages & polishing grit wiped out the new bearings. Not a pretty sight.

[TexasJohn55]

Leave one main cap at each end up to hold crank off seals. (Never drop all at once).TJ55 .....Plumbers Putty may work also to plug oil holes, any number of ways as previously posted here.

Edited May 29, 2013 by TexasJohn55 (see edit history)

[Machiner 55]

Padgett,

Ran great for a week then started making noise. Seems the shop that polished the crank didn't clean out the oil passages & polishing grit wiped out the new bearings. Not a pretty sight.

This is what I fear will happen if I attempt to "machine" (my hands are registered) the crank while laying on my back under the car with no really effective way to flush. I mean how many particles of 450 - 600 grit can remain and not do damage? If I pulled the crank it'd be a simple matter to use my wash tank and compressed air to clean it. But, once the crank is out (having pulled the engine to do this) I'm back to either polishing it, installing a crank kit as per Ronnie (damn good idea), dropping a known good used or re-man engine in. I must say though that it's tempting to just go ahead and try the *polish (or is it Polish?)while still in the car* method just to see what would happen. What would it take? 8 - 12 hours start to finish. (that's drive it in, set the brake to pop the brake, drive it out time.) Probably 100 bux in parts. ie., bearing set, oxide sheets, new pan gasket and oil & filter and, as per JT55 in post #93, a small container of plumbers putty. (who'da thunk it?) Hmmm.

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Padgett,

I must say though that it's tempting to just go ahead and try the *polish (or is it Polish?)while still in the car* method just to see what would happen. What would it take? 8 - 12 hours start to finish. (that's drive it in, set the brake to pop the brake, drive it out time.) Probably 100 bux in parts. ie., bearing set, oxide sheets, new pan gasket and oil & filter and, as per JT55 in post #93, a small container of plumbers putty. (who'da thunk it?) Hmmm.

Looking at risk vs reward, you'd be nuts not to do it. You've got a bad engine. You can spend lots of time and money pulling it, rebuilding it, or replacing it with an unknown one. Hopefully problem solved. But there's still a chance it still won't be right. Or, you can spend a few hours and dollars and attempt to repair the easy way. Worst case, you still have a bad engine and you're back where you started, best case you get many more trouble free miles out of it.

I have enough confidence in your abilities to say go for it! There will always be an engine out there you can swap in later.

[Machiner 55]

I have enough confidence in your abilities to say go for it!

That makes two of us.

John F.

[padgett]

Over the years I have constantly been asounded at just how much neglect an american engine can take and just keep on going and the 3800 is one of the best. Suspect you could just go with 1 thousands undersize bearings and just button it up if concerned about grit.

When building race engines I never turned a crank, just would look for ones that had 100,000 miles of polishing.

Can allso break in with a quart of ATF for 100 miles then change oil and filter. ATF is so high detergent you can clean parts with it.

[Machiner 55]

Since the “Knock” post generated so much interest, I decided to post a follow-up with the latest on this continuing saga. It’s turned out longer than I anticipated. (both the knock issue and this post)

 

OK then. For those inquiring minds who want to know, I've decided to go with a known good used engine to rid myself of the engine knock. I'd prefer to work on the crank bearings with the engine on a stand and my backside on a stool instead of decumbent on the ground. I decided to stay with the VIN "C" as opposed to a VIN "L" as some have suggested. Not a bad idea that. I almost ran with it but, I wanted a more "plug and play" rather than "plug and pray" experience and I wanted to keep the car as original as it can be kept. (Why mess with perfection?)

I used the car-parts.com link provided by Dave and found an engine in Hammond, Indiana. Hammond is the hometown of Jean Shepherd who wrote "A Christmas Story" (..."you'll poke your eye out kid. Ho- Ho- Ho!"). It’s also home to Northlake Auto Recyclers. NAR is no "pick & pull". Nor is it your run of the mill salvage yard. Check out the aerial view of the place at their web site NAR Parts | Quality Used Auto Parts, Chicago, IL | Welcome to NAR!. I have never been to salvage or recycling yard laid out and as well run as this place. When I stepped inside the main building, I thought I was in the wrong place. I was presented with Fluted woodwork, stained dark walnut, all around. You'd think you were walking into a stately old hotel or a professional office of some sort instead of going into a place to buy used auto parts. There are several fully restored old gas pumps and display cases containing models of planes, jets and sailing ships. The shots of their operation on their web site don't show the interior office space, which is too bad 'cause it's the best part. Although the outdoor hockey rink is kinda special. I think I'll go back just to get some pictures of the inside of the place (if they'll let me) because it's really something to see. I'll post them if I do. They held the engine a week for me on my word that I’d buy it. I thought that to be kinda cool too, seeing as I’d never done any business with them before in my life. They even gave me a coupon for $25.00 off my next purchase of $150 or more, good till the end of the year. I had to fill out a satisfaction survey to activate it. No big deal as I was satisfied, so it was easy but, enough about NAR.

I know, some may say that I've just bought someone else's problems and that this tack is still sort of “plug & pray” but, I have to take the word of the knowledgeable folks at NAR. And that is, that the engine I purchase from them is what they say it is. It was advertised as a low mileage (65k) engine from a '90 Pontiac Bonnie. A note on the valve cover and on their web page reads: " …RAN NICE A-1. That's according to "S.M." (Whoever that is). They warrant the engine for 90 days and even provided a procedure to follow before firing up the engine for the first time after install. To protect themselves from getting a return by someone who overheated the engine (guess it's the common cause of failure and returns) they stick melt-able discs to a couple of the freeze plugs. These melt at between 255* and 260*. Should the engine overheat and melt the discs... well, just don't bother burning gas to get back to Hammond as the warranty is null and void. Anyway, by going this route, I’ll also be able to take my time and pull off the timing and valve covers then go over the engine and inspect bearing clearances, gear lash and run-out among other things as well as replace seals and gaskets. In other words, I’m not just going to dump it in and then see what happens. Due diligence and all that.

 

I used AutoCheck.com and got the "Free" part of the vehicle report using the VIN# provided on the engine tag. Even with the limited amount of info available, it provided me with corroborative information. After I got home, a cursory inspection by me revealed no external physical damage or problems other than the handle on the dipstick was broken. NAR pressure washed the engine sometime prior to my picking it up. All holes, pipes & ports were plugged or taped over to prevent wash fluid from entering. They left the oil in the pan so I was able to examine it when I got it home. There was nothing obviously wrong with the oil. I'll pull the pan and inspect further. I will probably pull a rod cap or two to check the bearings. (I have 10 days from purchase date to return it. There’s a 20% restock fee of course) I pulled the plugs and found that it appears that the engine was running rich as there was carbon build-up on the piston heads and plugs. The build-up on the plugs is kinda flaky and is picked off easily. (see attached pics) Unable to tell what the root cause of that issue is at this time.

My intention is to prep this engine as well as I can once I've got it on the engine stand. Then, after I've got all prep work done and can find a block of uninterrupted time, I'll swap it out. Later, after I’ve determined that the install is a success, I can take my time with the one currently installed in the '90. I'll mount it on my stand and go over it with a fine toothed wrench. Rebuild it bigger, better, stronger etc. I’ve always wanted to rebuild an engine from the ground up. This will be the one.

 

Re. the attached photos:

The first two pics are of the engine that came out of my 1989 Reatta. I was going to rebuild it but never got around to it. It worked out though because I needed a core engine anyway. The next five pics (#3 -7) are of the newly acquired 3800 I picked up from NAR. The next two (pics #8 & 9) are of the same plug pulled from the “new” 3800 viewed from different angles showing the carbon build up. It is representative of all six plugs

 

I did, however, find out the reason the engine pulled from my ‘89 was making the banging noise that my son reported to me. Looking at Pics #10 – 13, you can see that the engine had a failed #1 rod bearing and when I pulled the bearing cap off, there was nothing left of the bearing. Both halves appeared to be completely gone. If you look closely at the crank pic, there appears to be a crack in the journal. It’s either that or a crack in the remnant of the bearing. (I’ll never know for sure because the engine is now in the hands of the folks at NAR. I believe the damage was due to oil starvation. When I dropped the pan, I found the oil level sender was screwed up. The little wobbly end piece was non-existent. There were parts of it mixed with the remnants of the bearing in the bottom of the pan. I guess the boy was waiting for the car to announce that the oil level was low instead of checking the level manually (like I repeatedly told him to). I think he thought the on board logic system was infallible.

 

Once the engine swap is complete, I’ll update this post on the progress I’ve made. Also, I’ll post what I’ve found out about the engine pulled from my ’90 once I've torn in to it but, that post may be some time in coming. It all depends on how backlogged I am on the Honey-do list at the end of this swap.

John F.

 

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Ronnie (see edit history)

[Ronnie]

In the photo below it appears the bearing insert has spun in the rod and is possibly fused to the rod journal. The line you see may be where one insert is smeared (for the lack of a better word) over the top of the other. I've seen that happen several times.

[padgett]

Only issue is that when I replaced the engine in the '90 Bonne, first thing I did with the used engine was to replace all of the freeze plugs with brass ones. Did they replace the freeze plugs before adding the wax ?

[Machiner 55]

Ronnie,

I agree.

Padgett,

No, the freeze plugs are original. Before finding out that they placed the "melters" on, I was going to change all the plugs out b-4 install as part of my prep. I considered calling them to ask if I could change the hard to reach one and leave the accessible one intact. There are only two of them. One is placed on the end of the "front" (left) head assy. The other is on one of the plugs in the block on the oxy sensor side. (the in-accessible one). Maybe I'll just say to hell with it and change them out regardless of the warranty.

John F.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Machiner 55 (see edit history)

[2seater]

When you get around to it, I would be very curious as to the condition of the timing chain tensioner? I replaced the tensioner with the new style on an '89 engine I built about 38k miles ago. Low oil pressure caused me to pull the engine to look for the cause (bearings were still okay) and found the front cam bearing badly worn and the tensioner severely worn and twisting the chain, so was likely the cause of the cam bearing issue. This is the first point where the oil enters the engine from the pump. Before I tore down the '89 engine, I had reinstalled the original 92k 1990 engine. Prior to installation I had done as you outline, new brass plugs, water pump, timing set and tensioner (new style), so I had not seen the worn tensioner yet In any case, the photo is of the original tensioner design with 92k miles on it on the left and the new style w/38k on the right. I think what contributed to the excessive wear was two things: the tensioner is softer material than original (spring center punch test) and the Cloyes chain is not up to the O.E. standard. The original Morse branded chain has the side connector plates almost exactly flush with the center four plates and the Cloyes chain has them located approx. .02" lower, so there is less bearing surface to the tensioner. The new style tensioner looks great with the big wide assumed contact area but the reality is it actually rides on a very small area. You can make your own judgement on what to do. If you look closely, you can see the stepped wear pattern. Edit: I forgot to mention the new style tensioner has cutouts on the back, so it doesn't take a lot of wear to go through and then it twists and saws through the rest. I know it looks off center but that is the way the O.E. tensioner was as well, but it is a solid piece. It did ride completely on the chain to start with.

Edited June 12, 2013 by 2seater (see edit history)

[padgett]

Call first and ask if they will send a new set then you will send photographs back of the new plugs with the pellets in place before the engine is installed. Particularly in the rust belt that is an essential change.

[Machiner 55]

2S,

I really appreciate the info on the new style tensioner. I'll report back with my findings when I get it apart (hopefully within a week).

I'm gather you're suggesting that I go with a Morse Chain and original style tensioner if they can be obtained?

[Machiner 55]

Padgett,

1.) I'll email them. My original contact was very helpful and will be familiar with the purchase.

2.) I agree.

John F.

[2seater]

2S,

I really appreciate the info on the new style tensioner. I'll report back with my findings when I get it apart (hopefully within a week).

I'm gather you're suggesting that I go with a Morse Chain and original style tensioner if they can be obtained?

That would be my suggestion. I will know more when I finally get the second engine re-done and reinstalled so I can check out the original engine that had the same parts installed. I did get an original style tensioner somewhere (don't know off hand) but I do not like it either. The material is softer than original although the same style. I think there may be others out there but I stopped searching for now. As for the chain: at the least, check the connector link position relative to the rest. The whole chain is only six plates wide, including the connectors, so there isn't a lot of surface. I looked at various brands on Rock Auto and I "think" I saw another brand (memory fails) that looked like what I wanted but I have not purchased yet. A couple of other suggestions for a "tuned up" engine that may be old hat to you: if you need new pistons, use the vin "L" pistons from something like '93 or so (another memory issue), which have +.05" compression height, and will give approx. zero deck on an uncut block, plus a thinner ring package. Use a Victor Reinz or O.E. (probably the same) headgasket. They have the proper fit to head where a Fel-Pro is way oversize with a full 4" bore which kills compression plus bad crevice volume. And lastly, reverse the pistons side to side to straighten up the piston for possible free hp. at the possible expense of a little noise? They have about a .05" offset.

[Machiner 55]

2s,

Again, thanks for the info.

Re., "A couple of other suggestions for a "tuned up" engine that may be old hat to you:"

I don't plan on going that far on the NAR engine that's going into my '90. I''ll reserve the more technical upgrades you mentioned for the one pulled from it.

Also, the suggestions aren't "old hat" to me. I'm a mechanic but not an auto mechanic.

I work on machines but the in's and out's of an ICE are still somewhat a mystery to me.

Any and all suggestions from anyone are appreciated regardless of how technical or mundane they may seem.

John F.

PS to Padgett,

It's almost six and I haven't heard back from NAR. Maybe tomorrow.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Machiner 55 (see edit history)

[DAVES89]

What about the '88 cam shaft you were telling me about?

[Machiner 55]

Dave,

I got some splain'n to do.

The engine that was pulled from a '90 Pontiac Bonneville I got from NAR, will be going into my recently acquired '90 Reatta.

The engine from the '90 Reatta, which has a slight knock at temp and is the one that started this post, will go on my engine stand to be rebuilt.

The engine currently in my '89 Reatta came from my, now dismantled and disposed of, '88 Reatta.

And, the '89 engine that I pulled from the '89 Reatta is the one with a horrendous banging noise, which I used as the core for the engine purchased from NAR.

Don't worry if you're confused. If I hadn't lived it, 'd be confused too.

What about the '88 cam shaft you were telling me about?

At this point, I don't recall saying anything about the '88 camshaft. :confused:

John F.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Machiner 55
Changed "to" guy (see edit history)

[DAVES89]

According to 2seater the '88 "C" engine has a bit "wilder" cam in it. It was a one year only cam. Just some info for higher performance...

[2seater]

No you didn't mention it, but Dave has it right. I pretty much gave up looking for an '88 cam due to lack of availablity. I forgot to mention, I installed one in the original 1990 engine that is in the car now, so that ought to confuse you If you still have the '88 engine with the 3800 cast into the intake, IMHO, that is the cam to use for a massaged engine. Sounds like it may be the engine you plan to "improve" if I didn't lose track. Easy to check with a dial indicator on a pushrod when the rocker is removed. Padgett had a nice synopsis of the two cams in a post in the recent past. In any case, lobe lift will be around .270"+ and later cams will be .250" or .255", more duration too. This is my handmade graphical representation of the two cams. The later model lobes would fit inside the early model.

[Machiner 55]

2s,

If you still have the '88 engine with the 3800 cast into the intake,

I do have the '88 engine with the "3800" cast into the intake but, it's currently running in my '89 which my son is using for transport.

He would think unkindly of me if I were to tear it out.

PS. That's pretty awesome of you to take the time to graph the cam action like that.

I understand it was done some time ago, Thanks for posting it.

John F.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Machiner 55 (see edit history)

[Machiner 55]

PS to Padgett,

It's almost six and I haven't heard back from NAR. Maybe tomorrow.

Got a call from NAR today re. the melt-able discs. It was agreed that it would be OK to remove the freeze plugs with the discs attached and bring them in along with the brass replacement plugs. They will then mount additional discs on the brass plugs to be later installed by me.

John F.

[Machiner 55]

and spins a newly rebuilt engine or one that has sat for a while to bring pressure up before starting

Padgett,

So how do you do this with the engine out of the car. I have my own ideas. (none of them involve squirrels, pulleys or counter-weights but a starter is involved) What are yours?

John F.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Machiner 55 (see edit history)

[2seater]

Pretty sure the starter attaches to the block, so; if the flexplate is attached to the rear of the crank, you should be able to spin it over. The flexplate does clear the engine stand on the ones I have, so should be doable. I don't know the stability of the stand, but I would want an additional method of supporting the engine while cranking, such as being attached to an engine hoist. I would pull all the sparkplugs to lessen torque required and speed cranking. A small shot of oil in each sparkplug hole before cranking. Could also pull the valve covers after or while cranking to see that oil is getting to the top end. Maybe attach an oil pressure gauge in place of the sender to see that you get something positive.

[padgett]

With the plugs out I have spun with a 1/2" drill before. Can monitor the oil pressure switch (not the sensor, both are in the same device) with a dvm.

[TexasJohn55]

With the plugs out I have spun with a 1/2" drill before. Can monitor the oil pressure switch (not the sensor, both are in the same device) with a dvm.

Some drill motor! Is that a two-man drill? What did you chuck it up to?

[Machiner 55]

Pretty sure the starter attaches to the block, so; if the flexplate is attached to the rear of the crank, you should be able to spin it over. The flexplate does clear the engine stand on the ones I have, so should be doable. I don't know the stability of the stand, but I would want an additional method of supporting the engine while cranking, such as being attached to an engine hoist. I would pull all the sparkplugs to lessen torque required and speed cranking. A small shot of oil in each sparkplug hole before cranking. Could also pull the valve covers after or while cranking to see that oil is getting to the top end. Maybe attach an oil pressure gauge in place of the sender to see that you get something positive.

Yah, so, I think this is the way to go because it's exactly what I had in mind. Exactly. Even down to attaching a steam gauge to the pressure sender port and leaving the covers off to see if oil is spurting from the rockers at the rod ends... My stand also has the clearance required to mount the flex-plate.

Fine minds really do think alike don't they?

Padgett,

I don't think the drills I own have enough "oopmh" to move it the way I'd like but, that's a good idea.

John F.

[2seater]

Funny thing, I didn't think about Padgett's suggestion until posted but I have a two handed low rpm 1/2" electric drill that would probably do it, or possibly an impact wrench too?

[Ronnie]

As I understand it this is a good used engine that had been running good before it was pulled out of the car. If that is the case I don't see that spinning with a drill to build oil pressure will make a dimes worth of difference in the longevity of the engine. Slowly spinning the engine with a drill *trying to build oil pressure* could be more harmful to the bearings and crankshaft than just going ahead and starting the engine so it will quickly build oil pressure.