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MAKES ME SICK


GARY F

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Agreed. Why destroy something like this when you can buy a decent fiberglass Ford replica that you can build however you like. Ultimate destruction is the future of our hobby, it seems.

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It's a fact of life guys. The best way to prevent these things from happening is spreading our message of antique car preservation. We have to all become educators. Have those regional newsletters with you in your car to share with young folks. Offer rides in your antique car.

Show them the "light"!:)

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Wayne said it very well...

Whenever we are out in an old car, somebody will come over and talk with you. Take them around the block, take the time to talk and find out their interest....let them know why preservation is more important to us than "modification". Keep extra copies of your newsletter, or the other publications in your car to give away. Keep a membership application in your glovebox. Invite a neighbor and his/her kid to a cruise night, or juist for ice cream (Sometimes it is better to not take only the kid!).

Be an ambassador for the hobby, but always help folks to understand the importance of originality....

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Anyone whose into cars at my highschool talks about hot rodding classic cars. Instead of yelling at them, I offer to take go with them to local shows so they can see the beauty of original classics. And I tell them instead to modify current model cars if that is what they're into

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Actually I'd rather restore one than rod it, but I understand the logic of the street rodder, and the math.

Take the 33 Pontiac that started the thread for example:

A 33 Pontiac 6 cylinder in restorable barn find condition will be a $25,000 to $50,000 restoration, depending on who does it.

When finished it'a a show and tour car if done right and it's value is easily less than the restoration costs. If done wrong it's

something for the hier's to sell at a loss.

If done as a "resto-mod" for the same money, it a usable vehicle with automatic & A/C. If done right it's a vehicle that the

family can use to travel to car events anywhere and is worth more than a good restoration. If done wrong there is more

recovery for the owner or the heirs. (Maybe)

We drive antiques and enjoy them, but ours are worth more to the Street Rod bunch than to the antiquer's. Sad but true.

We have both and have more fun with the antique car people. We'll continue with restorations, but know that not everybody

see's the fun an history of antique cars like we do.

P.S. Our Resto-Rod is worth twice what it would have been if I restored it. Since I'm not in the museum business I had to do

a car that was usable 365 an still looked like an antique.

Give the Rodder's a break, they may allow you to recover some of your expenses from you labor of love.

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You got to step up and buy them or this happens. Plain and simple. I like both restored and rodded cars. Since he has already made his intentions known maybe some should offer to buy up all the hard to find restoration pieces he is going to be getting rid of and then just go find another good restoration candidate to use the other parts on. Life is too short to worry about something like this.

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You got to step up and buy them or this happens. Plain and simple. I like both restored and rodded cars. Since he has already made his intentions known maybe some should offer to buy up all the hard to find restoration pieces he is going to be getting rid of and then just go find another good restoration candidate to use the other parts on. Life is too short to worry about something like this.

EXACTLY!

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Ok, you used your FREEDOM OF SPEECH, now how about giving us our RIGHTS, to make an old car, DRIVABLE, by doing it our way?

Maybe it MAKES ME SICK that you want to control what I DO with my car, and money, take a deep breath, you might live longer.

Dale in Indy

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It's not about trying to control what you do with your car, it's about trying to save a piece of history. Once rodded, then no one knows what the car was really like when new.

But, as stated, it's happening more and more to better and better cars, so we'll just have to get used to it........

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I meant NOTHING personal, just seems that this subject has been covered, and covered.

We are all different, many of us beat to a different drum.

I knew when I modified my Limited, that some wouldn't like it, but I also knew that there are plenty of Limited's around, so it isn't like they aren't well represented.

I wanted my car to retain the 41 look, but drive like a much more dependable piece. I wanted handling, an automatic, air, disc brakes, power steering, fuel injection, seat belts, and better MPG.

I also wanted to do 90% of the build myself, which I did, and loved every minute of such. I am very pleased with the results, and would do it all over again.

I love original cars, like the owners, and am Thankful that the BCA has welcomed modifies. I know of folks that have both original and modified cars, and they never give me negative comments.

Can't we all just get along..... I think so.

Dale in Indy

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An absolutely authentic and original 1930 Packard 733 convertible coupe, running and driving, which had completed dozens of Glidden Tours, was "modernized".

At least I got to buy the original driveline which is identical to the one in my already restored car.

post-54863-143141844465_thumb.jpg

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But, as stated, it's happening more and more to better and better cars, so we'll just have to get used to it........
Don't get used to it, get mad. These people are turning antique cars into playthings they think will live forever just like they (or their interest in them) will.

Meanwhile most of the cars that this happened to 30 years ago are now Kia fenders and Kenmore washing machine frames now. This former Pontiac will be parted out and melted down 30 years from now when it's just as boring as the clichéd rods from 1978 are today.

At least 30 years ago people hadn't figured out yet that they could save money by throwing away the work of all the restorers and preservationists that came before them. That's the only reason it's being done now.:(

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It's a fact of life guys. The best way to prevent these things from happening is spreading our message of antique car preservation. We have to all become educators. Have those regional newsletters with you in your car to share with young folks. Offer rides in your antique car.

Show them the "light"!:)

Yes, but what do you do when you have a club that touts restoration and preservation of the mark and turns around and lets customs into the club and makes classes for them in their car shows? PM me Wayne, and I'll tell you which clubs I'm familiar with that do that.

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Anyone whose into cars at my highschool talks about hot rodding classic cars. Instead of yelling at them, I offer to take go with them to local shows so they can see the beauty of original classics. And I tell them instead to modify current model cars if that is what they're into

Problem is it is illegal to modify a car ( unless the modified parts have a carb cert. number). In 1952 you could take a 32 Ford roadster and install a Olds or Cadillac V-8 and make it a HOT ROD. Try that today and you won't pass a visual for your emission test.

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Since when does a 32 Ford require emission testing? People are building them, and other makes and years, every day without smog certs. Go to any rod event and you'll see row after row of them, titled, licensed and legal. Only cars built after about 1975 need to worry about CARB.

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We need to start a fund that every time a post like this comes up, the poster has to donate a dollar to the beaten dead horses fund. This has been played out so many times. Quit complaining and start doing!!!! I'm actually starting to get really mad at these posts. I don't know if you realized it or not but I've seen tons of full on resto and originality guys part out and scrap perfectly good restoration projects that in their terms cost to much to restore. But when someone buys the whole car and plans on doing something like this it becomes sacrilege? STUPID that's a double standard.

I watched a guy at a show rudely tell a younger guy around my age that his 31 ford tudor rat rod was a waste of a good 31 ford body. The kid then explained how it was actually a patchwork of a wasted tudor body and 8 or 9 good panels to make it look ok enough to be a rat rod. The guy walked away embarrassed. In the case of this particular Pontiac it seems as though whats done is done and if you don't have the cash to talk the guy out of it what say do you have in it? HE OWNS IT YOU DON"T It might be a shame to you but in his eyes it's not.

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In a month or so you'll all be crying about the guy selling the Pontiac straight 8 for scrap because none of you would step up and buy it.

I agree. If we don't like it, offer to buy the project. Than nothing to modify. Modification is often less expensive than restoration. I would guess that a restoration person had the same chance to aquire the car as the hot rodder. Where were they?

Ben

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I may have missed something in this discussion, as I have simply skimmed over it quickly. I am not a fan of modified vehicles or rat rods. I also strongly believe that it is a free country. Anybody can do whatever they want to with the car that they buy. If you want to save them all, figure out how to buy them. The one who puts up the cash can decide what he or she wants to do with a particular car. It does not good complaining about it, and it does no good to be rude to those who prefer to modify cars. I tend to prefer to "live and let live". If I find myself in a situation where someone asks my opinion about a modified car, I tend to try to calmly state, "Personally, I prefer cars that are restored to their original condition." I don't see a need to be disagreeable. It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable.

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It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable.

Matt, it was. However of late it appears that this is becoming something almost predatory in nature. 20 years ago it would be unthinkable to rod out a complete, HPOF, or well restored car. Now it is often the preferred method. I'm not familiar with the particulars of the Pontiac in question, but it appears that's what's happening here.

48buickkid's '31 rat rod story used to be the where all of these cars came from (pieced together out of scrap with skill and love). There is something quite admirable in people making hot rods in that manner. Those days are over (although many people still work that way, it's not the nearly exclusive method it used to be). Now it's often a production thing, making a toy for momentary play largely for profit. As long as people are willing to drop $35K for a $20K car with a $3K crate engine in it, or are convinced people are doing so by televised auctions, any car is a potential victim.

Given the coming changes in fuels and other concerns re. the driving and restoration of antique cars, "rodding" them into something cheaper and easier to use (for a period of time) is likely to become more popular. It's an erosion of history that, while it might not be possible to restrict in a free society, would be all the more dangerous if done in silent acceptance.

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If I had unlimited resources, I would likely have a bunch of restored antiques. Sadly I do not, and some folks think I'm crazy for putting money into my 31 Plymouth. When done it will be completely original with a rebuilt engine. I am not doing show quality as I intend to drive it frequently, but sadly not on any long trips. When this engine goes, I will then install a more modern 4 cylinder drive train and air conditioning. Will stick to a carbureted engine if possible. Then I will find another antique to keep original just because I really like them even if not suited for long trips across the country.

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I really like them even if not suited for long trips across the country.

I have a very good friend who'd been exclusively interested in high performance cars. He literally didn't own a car as long as I knew him with less than a 9 second 0-60 time, and most were far faster than that. His main collector car is a Tri-Power '68 'Vette.

He wanted to buy another car, and I helped convince him to buy a nice straight 8 Pontiac which he now drives regularly. (Truth be told it was an interest he already had but was seriously concerned about being able to drive it on today's roads.) I did so by a simple argument, that being: the limitations of older cars is their appeal! If all you're driving is another 5.0L Caprice or 4.0L Ranger dressed up in an antique car costume it's (eventually) just as boring as driving an old Caprice/Ranger in the first place. Making a flathead straight 6 do something is an accomplishment than no sbc driver can know.

There's an axiom in sports car driving that says it all. "It's better to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow." If more 1933 Pontiac owners appreciated that appeal there'd be more 1933 Pontiacs.:cool:

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This attitude just isn't with antique cars. Watch TV and see how many shows are popping up about how to modernize your Victorian house or take beautiful pieces of antique furniture and paint it some horrible color to bring it into the modern era. And they seem to hunt out pristine survivors instead of rundown examples. There just doesn't seem to be any respect for what came before just old is bad I can make it better.

Howard Dennis

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For the most part antique furniture is very hard to sell these days. People that like such are dying, and younger folks don't care for it, so why not save it by giving it a new life.

It boils down to what a person likes or doesn't like.

Haven't you ever wondered why people that don't care for antiques, DON'T HARP AT YOU FOR LIKING SUCH?

Worry about things you can change.

Dale in Indy

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Part of the charm of restoring rather than modifying is the experience of the original feel of the car. The sound of the engine, the ride and handling and the memories that it evokes. I don't want automatic transmission or AC. Drive the car on country roads early in the morning when traffic is at a minimum and experience the car as it was intended. Why do you want to drive a car that looks old but feels like a modern car. AACA is for preserving antique cars NOT modifying them. The Hot Rod movement is so pervasive, we don't have to be so tolerant, it's everywhere on TV and at cruise in shows. It has been a lot more common to see even true Classics like the modified Packard Darrin I saw a few years back on My Classic Car featured. Long time forum members may remember the "Lost Souls" thread that Dave@Moon posted. It was full of true Classics that were modified.

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We get a lot of rods coming to our shop with owners who want to sell them, and I turn a vast majority of them away just because I wouldn't be proud to represent them either for quality or taste issues. But it has given me an insight into the phenomenon that only confirms the worst about what's going on, not the best.

For example, most have very few miles and the reason is that many are just not much fun to drive. The owners had different expectations, whether it's that the car would be terrifyingly fast (they never are) or that they'd be more modern feeling (which they rarely are) or that they'd be more reliable (usually, but there is often little stuff that doesn't work and they just can't sort out). The driving experience is almost always the primary reason these guys are selling, and they're typically disappointed. It doesn't matter what it is, the "cookie cutter" cars are really boring to drive. Yay automatic transmissions and power steering and modern suspensions...:rolleyes:

Other owners are selling because the thrill was in the build, the anticipation, the excitement of trying new stuff, but in the end, it's just a car like most others, and even the pro-built ones are pretty much the same as everyone else's. I'm finally seeing fuel injection and overdrive transmissions and A/C being much more the norm (although the majority still have boring old 350s with carburetors and TH350 3-speeds), but for a lot of guys the build is the fun part, then they ditch the car and build something else. THIS form of recreation is what's doing a lot of damage to the supply of clean cars. These guys don't even care about the result except trying to get their money out of it for the next "build."

Look at the market yourself--there are A LOT of rods for sale, all of them relatively fresh builds with low miles. They are churned out by these "rod shops" using bolt-on parts and not much creativity, and the owners are often bored within a few months. Heck, I've had about a half-dozen guys try to convince me that THEIR 1941 Willys coupe is THE ONE, not like the other fifty that are on the market with big blocks, pro-street suspensions and wide-by-huge rear tires. They are ALL for sale. Why do guys keep building them with a glut of them on the market? No idea. It's not like they are going to change the recipe. On the plus side, however, these are all fiberglass repros so no real cars were harmed in the construction.

When rodding was about customizing the cars to an individual's tastes, when you were the guy scouring the classfieds and junkyards for parts, when there was no set "recipe" for each model, THOSE were special cars. Today, they're valuable and in demand and have history, just like our unmodified cars. But when hot rodding became an industry--and a big one, at that--all that went out the window. They all have small block Chevys, 3-speed automatic transmissions, and Ford 9-inch rear ends. If they're early, they have dropped I-beam axles, and if they're later, they've been subframed or have a repro Mustang II setup. 99.9% of them are the same under the skin, and that's why they're all for sale. There's a large audience of guys with money but no skill paying hot rod shops to roll them a generic rod, the rod shops don't push boundaries because there's no profit in reinventing the wheel, and everyone eventually comes away with a very big feeling of "meh" when it's done.

On the other hand, it's not really our job to police who is doing what to their own cars. A restorer had equal opportunity to buy that Pontiac and didn't. That's the free market at work, and sometimes it doesn't work out the way we want.

It's really no surprise that guys are trying to capture that unique feeling by rodding unique cars. The end result is the same, but they keep hoping they'll discover something magic by starting with something different from everyone else. I can almost guarantee that Pontiac has a small block Chevy, a GM automatic transmission, Vintage Air, and a bolt-on suspension with coil-overs with wheels by Billet Specialties. They ALL do.

"Hey, I just built this rod and it's totally to my tastes and completely custom! Oh, wait, you've got one that's just like it using the same parts you bought from Summit Racing? Dang. Guess I'll start over. Maybe nobody else has done a Marmon hot rod, I'll start there. Now where's that catalog so I can order up my crate motor..."

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Harwood makes an excellent point that I've thought before as well. How exactly is it a custom when your 49-51 Merc has a Desoto grill and Caddy caps? A '57 Bel Air and Deuce Coupe are cool cars, but there's so much better out there and it's nice to see variety though and sometimes that means a '33 Pontiac gets rodded out. Hopefully it will not be another cookie cutter and maybe it will have a Sprint 6 or S/D 455, 8 lug wheels, tri-tone interior, etc.

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Since when does a 32 Ford require emission testing? People are building them, and other makes and years, every day without smog certs. Go to any rod event and you'll see row after row of them, titled, licensed and legal. Only cars built after about 1975 need to worry about CARB.

I trust you are referring to this:

Anyone whose into cars at my highschool talks about hot rodding classic cars. Instead of yelling at them, I offer to take go with them to local shows so they can see the beauty of original classics. And I tell them instead to modify current model cars if that is what they're into

Problem is it is illegal to modify a car ( unless the modified parts have a carb cert. number). In 1952 you could take a 32 Ford roadster and install a Olds or Cadillac V-8 and make it a HOT ROD. Try that today and you won't pass a visual for your emission test.

Read a little closer you will find it is a comparative of what we used to be able to do. In other words you just can't legally just modify a new car or a car built after 1966 unless the parts you put on have a CARB # and are approved. Now since you live in CA. I've got news for you. While current California Smog laws say vehicles 1975 and older are exempt from testing, California smog law also says vehicles built with exhaust emission controls ( 1966-1975 ) are required by law to have those emission devises on the car and working. The reason the law is written this way is so vehicles from 1966-1975 can be brought back into smog check anytime the state desires to do so. There is NO legislation required because it's already written into law. There is a very good chance this might happen because California Cap and Trade emission requirements may dictate it if the state can't meet it's carbon offset which is nearly impossible to do without further driving business out of the state the state will be looking at all avenues to meet it's self imposed goal.

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I'm going to take a look at this from a different view. First of all I acknowledge the right of any buyer to spend his money and do with his car as he pleases. We have clubs for original cars and we have clubs for "rods" and both and everything in between. My love and my restorations are original cars. If someone wants to spend more money than me on buying a car I am interested in so be it!! If he then decides to rod it, then there is one less original car out there which makes my car just a little more valuable. Yes, it pushes the market higher...isn't that what we want out of our cars....for them to increase in value??? I challenge those that say the car is "destroyed". I have seen restorations done from complete basket case originals...is it any more of a task to return a rod to original?? Things that are changed can be changed back with no more work than rebuilding wrecked or rusted areas. I have always been able to buy frames and drive trains from those cars that were rodded. Recently, I have begun to see more and more bodies from neglected projects become available. I also see more and more of those rods that were at one time thought to be exciting become available from their now bored owners. As the market increases, the value of those neglected rods will be exceeded by the value or the desire to build an original. It is merely the laws of supply and demand at work.

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Agreed. Why destroy something like this when you can buy a decent fiberglass Ford replica that you can build however you like. Ultimate destruction is the future of our hobby, it seems.

Please show me where one can buy a "decent fiberglass" Pontiac or Olds replica. Until that time there's no alternative. Not all of us want a belly-button 32 Ford with a small block Chevy. And I'm sorry, but the economic facts are that it is MUCH cheaper to start with a complete, solid original car when building a street rod than a rust bucket with missing parts. Folks who don't like this are free to buy these original cars themselves to keep them out of street rodders' hands.

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Harwood makes an excellent point that I've thought before as well. How exactly is it a custom when your 49-51 Merc has a Desoto grill and Caddy caps? A '57 Bel Air and Deuce Coupe are cool cars, but there's so much better out there and it's nice to see variety though and sometimes that means a '33 Pontiac gets rodded out. Hopefully it will not be another cookie cutter and maybe it will have a Sprint 6 or S/D 455, 8 lug wheels, tri-tone interior, etc.

How is it? It's a abomination to take some designers work and try and make it over. Would you paint OVER Leonardo da Vinci's Mona Lisa? Do you think Dr. Frankenstein's monster ( a patchwork of other body parts ) is good looking?

If these customizers think they are so good, then they should be building cars from the ground up FRESH, instead of putting a 1960 Buick headlamp assy. on a 1960 Pontiac.

Do you know how long I've been looking for a clean 33 or 34 Pontiac that's unmolested? Do you know for the most part when a add is placed for one of those cars the car is modified?

Do you know you are on AACA's forum which is dedicated to preserving cars and not changing them?

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Helfen sit down and take a chill pill man. Don't knock the the real customizers either, barris,winfield,jeffries,bailon, took some pretty boring stock cars and made them special. Did you know that at AACA shows there are modified divisions? You purists are sometimes what kills the hobby! Your restored or nothing at all attitude is what puts people off. Take a young kid for example with not enough money to restore a car to pure stock but would like to drive and enjoy it before he/she is 40. Things like paying $100 for single tiny pieces of trim or a door handle are exactly why stuff gets rodded. As is waiting to find the sometimes non existent or impossible to find parts. I like fully restored cars as well as hot rods and I love traditional style customs. By the way that da vinci is priceless and there is only one, a 33 pontiac is not.

There are more out there go find one instead of whining here. In the time it took you to post someone probably bought one and there were probably quite a few original collector cars sold. As for the illegal to modify a car bit I must admit I'm a criminal then. I ran my 66 caprice with headers and a drag style exhaust on a 400 horse 350. Arrest me. My friend with a 71 chevelle ss 454 in his jacked up chevy truck has never been smog tested and its a 1979? In my area no one cares.

Lastly I'm going to bring up one of the reasons things get rodded. At the last car show you went to how many stock 55-57 ford thunderbirds were there? I know every show in my area has 4 or 5. They all look the same and nothing is worse than turning up at a show and bam there is another car just like yours. People do it to be different. LIVE with it.

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I've watched a fair number of these kinds of threads come and go over the years on this forum.

I have to say, quite honestly, that the AACA forum is the only place where the issue is treated as an "us" versus "them" sort of thing to the point that people get angry about it. I have never encountered so much negativity in the hobby anywhere discussing nearly anything as I have when rodding gets brought up on this forum. Apparently it's easy to sit more-or-less anonymously behind a computer and rant away about the evils of rodding, but I have NEVER experienced the same sort of attitude in the "real world" that I find here on the subject. I've been to concours shows and to hot rod shows. Good Guys Gatherings to Gooding Auctions.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and to do what they want to their property. That's the bottom line folks. You don't have to like it, look at it, condone it, or even THINK about it, but when it comes up I think there should be some respect shown. Sure, this is the AACA forum and we've all got some level of interest in original cars be it restored cars or preserved cars, but to demonize rodders is ridiculous.

Let me say this:

I am a car guy. I like cars: old cars, new cars, fast cars, slow cars;restored cars, original cars, rusted cars, and rodded cars. I like racing and I like restoration; cruse ins and I like concours shows. I like everything from Stanley Steamers to Spykers. I like two wheelers and eighteen wheelers. I like Pebble Beach and I like the Pomona Roadster Show. I am a car guy.

We all need to lighten up and remember we're all car guys! Even the rodders :cool:

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I've watched a fair number of these kinda of threads come and go over the years on this forum.

I have to say, quite honestly, that the AACA forum is the only place where the issue is treated as an "us" versus "them" sort of thing to the point that people get angry about it. I have never encountered so much negativity in the hobby anywhere discussing nearly anything as I have when rodding gets brought up on this forum. Apparently it's easy to sit more-or-less anonymously behind a computer and rant away about the evils of rodding, but I have NEVER experienced the same sort of attitude in the "real world" that I find here on the subject. I've been to concours shows and to hot road shows. Good Guys Gatherings to Gooding Auctions.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and to do what they want to their property. That's the bottom line folks. You don't have to like it, look at it, condone it, or even THINK about it, but when it comes up I think there should be some respect shown. Sure, this is the AACA forum and we've all got some level of interest in original cars be it restored cars or preserved cars, but to demonize rodders is ridiculous.

Let me say this:

I am a car guy. I like cars: old cars, new cars, fast cars, slow cars;restored cars, original cars, rusted cars, and rodded cars. I like racing and I like restoration; cruse ins and I like concours shows. I like everything from Stanley Steamers to Spykers. I like two wheelers and eighteen wheelers. I like Pebble Beach and I like the Pomona Roadster Show. I am a car guy.

We all need to lighten up and remember we're all car guys! Even the rodders :cool:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you won't be entering a hot rod at a AACA event. Maybe a local chapter you might, but it's not in the judging rule book.

Why is their so much passion about stock cars on this forum or in this club? Many of us AACA members are refuges from other clubs that were taken over by rodders and customizers, One in particular that I was a member of was a club that was specifically set up for the purest and now 80 % is customs. So AACA is our last stop, do you understand?

I have modified cars myself, but you don't show up at a rodeo to rope steers on a zebra.. well maybe some would just to stir the pot. Those are the kind of people who just like to see other people agitated.

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