1930 DA-124

[30DodgePanel]

Okay, What is this trucks big mystery?

Dave,

So your saying that the frame, engine and firewall tag all have the same number ?

Just curious, have you measured the wheelbase yet ?

[countrytravler]

Hmmm?

Bob knows these DB's pretty good.... I wonder if he was maybe speaking of a different vehicle that had a Victory 6 that he showed you and maybe you might be confusing them. Dave, with all due respect, I know you have alot to deal with and it's hard to keep it all straight even for someone who has studied it for any length of time. Not that Bob needs anyone to speak for him but I doubt he would have labelled that engine a Victory, afterall... it's been a few weeks since he was there and alot can get mixed up especially if your going on memory. If your memory is anything like mine I'd suggest keeping a tape recorder handy .

I was marking as Bob was talking. Bob is really a knowledgeable person on DB stuff no questions about it. Also a very pleasant person to meet. A real honer. Thanks Bob. Hope to meet again. DAVE

[countrytravler]

The number on the engine cover that hase engine along side it states : C-DD......... , is this not the numberof the motor , if it is it is a " DD ".

regards bob

Yes The DD is on the side of the block drivers side.

[30DodgePanel]

My DE model truck had the stewart vacum tank.

When you get to finalizing your color I will have more information. I have been in touch with Leon Wardle (see Attached portion of draft report). If you can add to report e-mail Leon.

1. Our preliminary finding is that Graham Brothers Standard Dark Blue and Dodge Brothers Truck Blue lie in the range from Hawthorns Midnight Blue (lightest) through Boatswain Blue (Ditzler 10039) (intermediate) to Baja Blue (<st1:stockticker w:st="on">PPG</st1:stockticker> 18436). L. Wardle bought a small can of each color in Acrylic Urethane and has brushed or sprayed it onto aluminum flashing to obtain larger color samples than those customarily provided by the paint manufacturers. Any one who sees this report and has a GB or DB truck with some paint that appears original is requested to write, phone, or email L. Wardle for a set of the three paint samples. We’ll add your findings on which blue matches best, or possibly some other modern manufacturers number that matches better.
   

<O:p></O>

N. LeonWardle

<st1:street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">7 Acorn Lane</st1:address></st1:street>

Wayland, Ma01778

Email: lenoreleon@verizon.net

Phone:508-358-5664

Sherman,

just to follow up...

Leon sent some samples and I tested them over the weekend (thanks again for referring him). The Baja was closest but is still too light. The closest thing I have found to this point is Coolie Blue IM-001 on the earliest Ditz Laq charts I could find that date back to the range of 1928- early 30's sometime.

I still plan to go with the Nitro Cellulose but fully understand why others may decide to use more modern methods such as single stage Acrylic.

[30DodgePanel]

I was marking as Bob was talking. Bob is really a knowledgeable person on DB stuff no questions about it. Also a very pleasant person to meet. A real honer. Thanks Bob. Hope to meet again. DAVE

[ATTACH=CONFIG]190701[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]190703[/ATTACH]

So are these 2 different trucks we are looking at ? If those pics are of the same truck and has the 136"WB shouldn't it be a 1 ton or larger then ? Just curious..

136" wb trucks in the F and G series but no 3/4 ton :confused:

[stakeside]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]190717[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]190718[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]190719[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]190721[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]190722[/ATTACH]

WB is written on the hood. 136" DD are on the drivers side of block, frame and fire wall numbers match. On further research, this truck, (9257687) ENG (DD2-T2123C) is a W30, 1 1/2 TON with full length running boards, rear under frame spare tire carrier. The info didn't specified what year, it just said 1930-32. Made in Stockton CA.

Refer to Master Parts Book pg O-3.

Model F-30, Yr is 1931-1932, 1 1/2 tn, 6 cyl, 136" WB. This is a Stockton truck. 1st frame # of sequence was 9,257,501.

[30DodgePanel]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]190607[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]190609[/ATTACH]

Hi Dave,

can you tell me what the 9 1/2 " is showing us ? I can't tell what part that is.

Also, on the running boards are they rectangular in shape 13"W x 69"L or partially rounded ? Either way I'm very interested. Shoot me an email or a PM with your price so we can get moving on them.

I believe this truck is an F-30 as well for what it's worth. I think it's good to work thru something like this and get others opinions so you can be sure what truck you have when trying to consolidate the inventory you have. BTW, I see you've been practicing painting , good job man.

Edited April 30, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[countrytravler]

Hi Dave,

can you tell me what the 9 1/2 " is showing us ? I can't tell what part that is.

Also, on the running boards are they rectangular in shape 13"W x 69"L or partially rounded ? Either way I'm very interested. Shoot me an email or a PM with your price so we can get moving on them.

I believe this truck is an F-30 as well for what it's worth. I think it's good to work thru something like this and get others opinions so you can be sure what truck you have when trying to consolidate the inventory you have. BTW, I see you've been practicing painting , good job man.

9 1/2" at the rear running board. Thanks on the paint. Still working the bugs out. Can't figure how to erase a line or letter when it's already locked in. Any clue? Go check out the Dodge truck forum and go to the VIN#.

[countrytravler]

[30DodgePanel]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]190810[/ATTACH]

I can do some minimul fab work on them... YEP ,,Those will work ! Shoot me a price with shipping total when you can.

The fan won't work but I could use those 2 bumper clamps and 4 bolts also if you could send it all at the same time I'd appreciate it.

[Guest 1930]

Hi Dave,

can you tell me what the 9 1/2 " is showing us ? I can't tell what part that is.

Also, on the running boards are they rectangular in shape 13"W x 69"L or partially rounded ? Either way I'm very interested. Shoot me an email or a PM with your price so we can get moving on them.

I believe this truck is an F-30 as well for what it's worth. I think it's good to work thru something like this and get others opinions so you can be sure what truck you have when trying to consolidate the inventory you have. BTW, I see you've been practicing painting , good job man.

Id be interested in understanding adding to this but at this point I am lost with what is transpiring

[30DodgePanel]

Id be interested in understanding adding to this but at this point I am lost with what is transpiring

What specifically are you having trouble with ?

I'm just trying to find running boards and other parts that Dave is helping me with and in the process we are all simply trying to collectively figure out what specific model truck he has that we are all looking at. I for one am probably making it more difficult than it needs to be but it's just my way of figuring things out so I don't miss anything. The truck has some decent parts on it that should be put back into other restorations and I'm hopeful that if I can't use them maybe someone else will see something they need.... thats all.

[30DodgePanel]

9 1/2" at the rear running board. Thanks on the paint. Still working the bugs out. Can't figure how to erase a line or letter when it's already locked in. Any clue? Go check out the Dodge truck forum and go to the VIN#.

Sorry, can't help once it's past beer 30....:cool:

other than highlighting over the entire phrase and retyping your description or sentence. More work but it's the only simple method I've found.

[countrytravler]

What specifically are you having trouble with ?

I'm just trying to find running boards and other parts that Dave is helping me with and in the process we are all simply trying to collectively figure out what specific model truck he has that we are all looking at. I for one am probably making it more difficult than it needs to be but it's just my way of figuring things out so I don't miss anything. The truck has some decent parts on it that should be put back into other restorations and I'm hopeful that if I can't use them maybe someone else will see something they need.... that's all.

Call this (EDUCATION) I'm earning how to identify the cars, trucks and parts that we have.

[stakeside]

My previous post # 326 states what model you have based on your frame #. Do you have a copy of the "Master Parts List"? This reference provides the model information for the truck you have.

Edited April 30, 2013 by stakeside (see edit history)

[countrytravler]

My previous post # 326 states what model you have based on your frame #. Do you have a copy of the "Master Parts List"? This reference provides the model information for the truck you have.

Yes sir:cool:

[countrytravler]

This is the book I received the info from.

[stakeside]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]190865[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]190866[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]190867[/ATTACH]This is the book I received the info from.

Thanks for information. Just another piece of the puzzle.

[Guest 1930]

What specifically are you having trouble with ?

I'm just trying to find running boards and other parts that Dave is helping me with and in the process we are all simply trying to collectively figure out what specific model truck he has that we are all looking at. I for one am probably making it more difficult than it needs to be but it's just my way of figuring things out so I don't miss anything. The truck has some decent parts on it that should be put back into other restorations and I'm hopeful that if I can't use them maybe someone else will see something they need.... thats all.

Do you or does anyone know when they moved the numbers from the floorboard to the firewall. ( specifically ) Also I am wondering what is the answer to post 321?

[30DodgePanel]

Do you or does anyone know when they moved the numbers from the floorboard to the firewall. ( specifically ) Also I am wondering what is the answer to post 321?

I can't help other than to say the following:

What I've noticed is the 31s and 32s both seem to have the firewall tag but my 30 doesn't. But then again, I've also seen some from 30' (if I recall correctly) that have the firewall tag as well...so why some have it and others don't tells me it must of been in 30 sometime but I have nothing concrete to base that on.

I noticed from my owners manual in a photo from the interior view there isn't a toeplate or a dash plate.

But, then again my truck has no firewall tag/plate either so I'm hoping I can find more info in regards to the plate that was over the passenger side door on the other DA-124 owned truck that I found recently earlier in this thread but the owner won't be available for a few more weeks to compare this info with so that will have to wait. For now, what I have found for my particular truck is it had a smooth dash plate that looked to be added later with no info, no toe plate and no firewall tag and no indications anywhere other than the dash plate that was completely blank showing no signs of previous information.

Here is the photo of the other DA-124 truck showing the tag over the passenger side door:

So, after studying for my truck specifically I wonder if the Panels were only tagged above the passenger side door and not on the firewall, toe or dash ....

Since I'm trying to focus so much of my attention on my own particular truck I have not expanded my studies as much as I need to (as of yet) although I know I need to in order to better understand certain things, I just haven't had any time to apply to it yet and any literature that I'm lucky enough to find that will help answer some of these questions we all have is either to expensive or already sold before I find it. Recently you may have seen a Graham Brothers book on the big board from around 1926 that had some great info for many of the models from 26' it sold for around $460 and was well worth it for the historical info it had imo but I just couldn't reach for it right now because of limited funds. If you could find one of those books from around sometime in 1930 I would bet you would find a more concrete answer to your question.

Heres a link if your curious Antique Vintage Graham Brothers Special Equipment Information Guide Binder Book | eBay

As for post 321 , the way I understood it after going back and reading it again is that Dave was saying the serial firewall tag and the frame number matched. However, the engine was a different number (on the 29' truck he was referring to which he later clarified).

Edited May 13, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

Here are more pics comparing both our DA-124 firewall sections. No sign of any tags from what I can tell. Mine was built March 11th 1930.

When the owner of the other DA-124 Panel gets back I'll try and find out his build date if needed (if you think that will help).

I'm only posting these again to show that their are no signs of any firewall plates on the 1930 DA-124's.

Mine:

The other owned DA-124 (don't mind the yellow arrows that was for a seperate discussion)

Edited May 13, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

I can't help other than to say the following:

What I've noticed is the 31s and 32s both seem to have the firewall tag but my 30 doesn't. But then again, I've also seen some from 30' (if I recall correctly) that have the firewall tag as well...so why some have it and others don't tells me it must of been in 30 sometime but I have nothing concrete to base that on.

I cant say for sure but maybe you are thinking of the Budd sequence tag on the firewalls, had nothing to do with the serial number plates.

I noticed from my owners manual in a photo from the interior view there isn't a toeplate or a dash plate.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]192980[/ATTACH]

You are definitely not going to see the floor tag in this picture, it is the farthest pass side up high, picture cuts out this view.

But, then again my truck has no firewall tag/plate either so I'm hoping I can find more info in regards to the plate that was over the passenger side door on the other DA-124 owned truck that I found recently earlier in this thread but the owner won't be available for a few more weeks to compare this info with so that will have to wait. For now, what I have found for my particular truck is it had a smooth dash plate that looked to be added later with no info, no toe plate and no firewall tag and no indications anywhere other than the dash plate that was completely blank showing no signs of previous information.

Just throwing it out there that the auto tags were decorated with something that I would say appeared to be a silkscreen design if that helps you to understand the nature of the print, over the years if the plate was exposed to the elements that I would absolutely see the pattern worn off. I have also seen tags that were very lightly stamped, I almost want to say I have seen tags that were not stamped but not sure why I would like to add that at this point, just comes to mind.

Here is the photo of the other DA-124 truck showing the tag over the passenger side door:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]192981[/ATTACH]

So, after studying for my truck specifically I wonder if the Panels were only tagged above the passenger side door and not on the firewall, toe or dash ....

Might be but I doubt it, uniformity across the models comes to mind. Keep looking though.

Since I'm trying to focus so much of my attention on my own particular truck I have not expanded my studies as much as I need to (as of yet) although I know I need to in order to better understand certain things, I just haven't had any time to apply to it yet and any literature that I'm lucky enough to find that will help answer some of these questions we all have is either to expensive or already sold before I find it. Recently you may have seen a Graham Brothers book on the big board from around 1926 that had some great info for many of the models from 26' it sold for around $460 and was well worth it for the historical info it had imo but I just couldn't reach for it right now because of limited funds. If you could find one of those books from around sometime in 1930 I would bet you would find a more concrete answer to your question.

I have three of them and need to sell two of them if you ever have a stronger interest.

Heres a link if your curious Antique Vintage Graham Brothers Special Equipment Information Guide Binder Book | eBay

As for post 321 , the way I understood it after going back and reading it again is that Dave was saying the serial firewall tag and the frame number matched. However, the engine was a different number (on the 29' truck he was referring to which he later clarified).

See above

[Guest 1930]

Here are more pics comparing both our DA-124 firewall sections. No sign of any tags from what I can tell. Mine was built March 11th 1930.

When the owner of the other DA-124 Panel gets back I'll try and find out his build date if needed (if you think that will help).

I'm only posting these again to show that their are no signs of any firewall plates on the 1930 DA-124's.

Mine:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]192982[/ATTACH]

The other owned DA-124 (don't mind the yellow arrows that was for a seperate discussion)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]192983[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]192984[/ATTACH]

Im pretty sure that it was as you said sometime in 30. Am looking for a more definitive answer with some sort of proof

[30DodgePanel]

See above

I'd be interested in any special information guide or sales bulletins if it's from 1930. Anything GB / DB or even Fargo related. Shoot me an email with your price and some examples of whats in them.

As for the ID plate location, my truck did come with two wooden upper toeplate sections that I assume would rest directly above the diamond plate flooring. Unfortunately one of the toeboards was missing the plate and the other was from a DA-120 starting with an E14xxxx serial number so it wasn't correct for my truck and it disintegrated while retrieving the numbers. I have noted that it too was labelled with the "B 120" just as Shermans Build Card has stated. Obviously the truck this toeboard belonged to was from Evansville IN and falls into the 1928-32 sequence. So the search for the correct location for my serial # tag location goes on...

Edited May 14, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[stakeside]

There were two plates on my earlier truck. I will forward another picture of my toe plate tag for the S 114xxxx. The model was noted as a DE on that plate. The other plate that was on the dash was badly rusted and I believe had Load Limits.

The later truck S 115xxx did not have a toe plate ( I believe this to be a DA-120 model). the dash plate was rusted out also.

[Guest 1930]

I'd be interested in any special information guide or sales bulletins if it's from 1930. Anything GB / DB or even Fargo related. Shoot me an email with your price and some examples of whats in them.

You may have misunderstood, the Graham books you gave a link too and mentioned that I said I had a couple of spares of are as you mentioned earlier, (26/27/28 was as far as I know approximate publish dates ) I am quite sure these specific books were phased out at some point in 28. 1928 is the last date that I have any of the check sheets and have never seen a later.

They are good though to have as you say because it gives a broader picture of the Dodge/Graham line-ups.

If I had or run across anything more that is specific for your truck I would give it to you, ( a copy ) I dont sell information.

As for the ID plate location, my truck did come with two wooden upper toeplate sections that I assume would rest directly above the diamond plate flooring. Unfortunately one of the toeboards was missing the plate and the other was from a DA-120 starting with an E14xxxx serial number so it wasn't correct for my truck and it disintegrated while retrieving the numbers. I have noted that it too was labelled with the "B 120" just as Shermans Build Card has stated. Obviously the truck this toeboard belonged to was from Evansville IN and falls into the 1928-32 sequence. So the search for the correct location for my serial # tag location goes on...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]193069[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]193070[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]193074[/ATTACH]

Above

[stakeside]

This is my toe plate tag for my DE model truck. I believe this could be duplicated using a vinyl application decal, but first you would need a good clear toe plate tag to scan to create a jpg file. The dash plate could be made the same way.

Dave does your dash have four holes on the passenger side to mount the dash plate? I noticed in the booklet picture the dash plate is missing. I my very well be it should be mounted on the wood roof support.

[30DodgePanel]

This is my toe plate tag for my DE model truck. I believe this could be duplicated using a vinyl application decal, but first you would need a good clear toe plate tag to scan to create a jpg file. The dash plate could be made the same way.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]193108[/ATTACH]

Dave does your dash have four holes on the passenger side to mount the dash plate? I noticed in the booklet picture the dash plate is missing. I my very well be it should be mounted on the wood roof support.

Good idea....

Yes, mine had a dash plate that appeared to be a later install. I say that because of the very thin stock of the sheet metal that was used. Had light rust on it and when cleaned there were no signs of any trace of anything and the rivets did not seem to be 1930 rivets to me,,, they appeared to be more fresh. Maybe someone started work on this truck at one time and gave up ? I have noticed the frame and the firewall appear to have recent (within the last 20 years or so) work done to it so that has been a factor for my determination as well.

Notice how rusted the plate is compared to the rest of the more solid metal dash face in this photo below. I doubt very seriously that it was original.

I will wait till I can contact the other DA-124 owner to see if he can offer any new information.

Edited May 14, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[stakeside]

Good idea....

Yes, mine had a dash plate that appeared to be a later install. I say that because of the very thin stock of the sheet metal that was used. Had light rust on it and when cleaned there were no signs of any trace of anything and the rivets did not seem to be 1930 rivets to me,,, they appeared to be more fresh. Maybe someone started work on this truck at one time and gave up ? I have noticed the frame and the firewall appear to have recent (within the last 20 years or so) work done to it so that has been a factor for my determination as well.

Notice how rusted the plate is compared to the rest of the more solid metal dash face in this photo below. I doubt very seriously that it was original.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]193156[/ATTACH]

I will wait till I can contact the other DA-124 owner to see if he can offer any new information.

I believe this is what was shown here on the dash tag.

[30DodgePanel]

I believe this is what was shown here on the dash tag.[ATTACH=CONFIG]193202[/ATTACH]

Where did you find that ??? Man I wish I had one of those...

[stakeside]

Where did you find that ??? Man I wish I had one of those...

I wish I had it also. I was able get a fairly good picture of an earlier model truck. Note the max speed of 25mph. I believe the DA 6 truck should be at least 45mph.

Does anyone have a good picture of Dash Plate for these trucks? I could use it as a pattern to may a new one.

[farrellg]

I wish I had it also. I was able get a fairly good picture of an earlier model truck. Note the max speed of 25mph. I believe the DA 6 truck should be at least 45mph.

Does anyone have a good picture of Dash Plate for these trucks? I could use it as a pattern to may a new one.

I have the same dash plate for my 31 express as pictured. I also have an actual plate. Problem is, I cannot be 100% sure it is the right one. My original was beyond being able to determine what was written on it. I found a replacement, holes match up (4, one in each corner) and will use it for my restoration.

First picture is a replacement tag I purchased. Second is my original tag, other than size, not much help.

Edited May 15, 2013 by farrellg (see edit history)

[stakeside]

Not sure correct plate because of max speed noted as 25mph. Should it be 45mph?

Could you get a true picture so I could make a pattern off it. Try placing on a scanner. That would be the best. If not take a picture directly overhead so all edges are symmetrical.

Do you have fairly good toe plate tag. Mine was in bad shape.

[farrellg]

Not sure correct plate because of max speed noted as 25mph. Should it be 45mph?

Could you get a true picture so I could make a pattern off it. Try placing on a scanner. That would be the best. If not take a picture directly overhead so all edges are symmetrical.

Do you have fairly good toe plate tag. Mine was in bad shape.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]193305[/ATTACH]

Unfortunately, none of my 3 trucks had toe board plates. They may have been there originally, but with years of use, they did not survive. I would love to have a view of what they would have looked like for 30, 31 and 32 trucks. I will try and scan tonight. I have a good scanner and copier.

[stakeside]

Unfortunately, none of my 3 trucks had toe board plates. They may have been there originally, but with years of use, they did not survive. I would love to have a view of what they would have looked like for 30, 31 and 32 trucks. I will try and scan tonight. I have a good scanner and copier.

This an example of 1930 1 ton DB Truck. I believe this is the correct plate for these trucks. Notice the small nails in toe plate area. Unfortunately the image is only 58 kb big and is not symmetrical.

[farrellg]

This an example of 1930 1 ton DB Truck. I believe this is the correct plate for these trucks. Notice the small nails in toe plate area. Unfortunately the image is only 58 kb big and is not symmetrical. [ATTACH=CONFIG]193317[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]193318[/ATTACH]

Here is a .pdf of my replacement plate, picture is not much better. Plate is 3 1/2 x 5 inches. Here is what the plate says if you cant see it clearly.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

3/4 TON CAUTION TRUCK

OVER LOADING OR OVER SPEEDING

WILL VOID YOUR WARRANTY

SPEED 25 MILES PER HOUR

MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE FREIGHT LOAD CAPACITY 1500 LBS

ALLOWABLE FOR WEIGHT OF BODY, FUEL,

AND WATER 778 LBS

WEIGHT OF CHASSIS WITH SHROUD,

WINDSHIELD, FENDERS, TOOLS, AND SPARE RIM 2202 LBS

TOTAL WEIGHT OF CHASSIS, BODY, AND

LOAD NOT TO EXCEED 4480 LBS

DODGE BROTHERS, INC. DETROIT. U.S.A.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Dash Data Plate Scan 0513.PDF

[30DodgePanel]

Received my Build Card today, any input is welcome.

I'd like to know what the abbreviations under speedometer mean as well as the order number meaning, and the obvious curiosity of whom may have been the one to sign his/her intials (although it's doubtful that I'll ever be able to find that out..). Overall, a very good copy and highly legible (thankfully).

Jason, theres the B designation for the 3/4 ton according to the staff at archives. I realize it may not be the proof your looking for but it is encouraging to see it coincides with Shermans B-120 at the very least anyway.

EDIT: Does anyone have any info on the Dodge Brothers dealership "Mc Onnel Motor Inc" Out of Pittsfield Mass ?

Also, encouraged to see the key codes finally..

Edited May 18, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

That is prob. the cleanest copy I have seen, abbreviations under speedometer are indicating the truck was ordered with a dist as apposed to a mag. I would assume order number is just an indicator of its placement amongst every other truck scheduled for delivery.

I will have to look for dealer info

[30DodgePanel]

As Sherman has stated in another thread I too am curious where my truck landed in the sequence, and more importantly was the sequence for an overall period of years similar to the 1928-32 serial number years ? My order number being D59516

According to this U.S. Automobile Production Figures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia the total number of units produced by Dodge in 1930 would have been around 90,000 and I believe they are considering all units IE "autos, commercial vehicles, & trucks". I do have an email out to archives in hopes for an explanation that may shed light on this but may not hear back from them for a week or so.

[30DodgePanel]

Above

in regards to the 1928 GB special information guide, thats probably the only one I'd be interested in finding out more of what the contents are. Am curious to know if the model 930 (for Panels) was used in 28 or was it only used after the Chrysler take over.