1989 Reatta - finished 8 month restoration - now with engine trouble *SOLVED*

[wws944]

... Here is hoping the leak is not rings. I figure at best I will be removing the heads to replace valves if there is a leak, and at worse considering my options for replacement...

Were you loosing coolant? Could the plug be wet with coolant? If so, perhaps it is just a head gasket issue.

But to make it worth my while I may just prefer to find a low mileage L67 supercharged or something.

Then again, that would be a lot of fun too!

[padgett]

Well I like a degree wheel. Since even fire cyl are spaced 60 degrees apart, just find TDC compression for #1 (won't hold air atol if 180 out), take reading, rotate 60 degrees and do next. I do with all plugs out & breaker bar on crank bolt.

[Fox W.]

Sounds good. Tonight I did prep by removing the little gas/oil engine strut and getting my breaker bar on the crank bolt. I believe I got #1 at compression TDC. UPS says the tools may arrive tomorrow. I also got that Mercedes replacement for the little engine strut, and it looks like it will work, but I can't say if it is the same spec. It is the same idea and very similar but the cylinder is a bit smaller in girth and length than our original. The rods though are about the right length, so I think it will at least mount. Who knows if it will do any good.

Well I like a degree wheel. Since even fire cyl are spaced 60 degrees apart, just find TDC compression for #1 (won't hold air atol if 180 out), take reading, rotate 60 degrees and do next. I do with all plugs out & breaker bar on crank bolt.

[Fox W.]

No evidence of coolant leaking in to the engine that I could detect, (odor or exhaust) and no obvious coolant loss either.

Were you loosing coolant? Could the plug be wet with coolant? If so, perhaps it is just a head gasket issue.

Then again, that would be a lot of fun too!

[2seater]

I made a piston stop from an old spark plug, gutted, and tapped for a through bolt, which works well. Since there is no timing reference, either a degree wheel or manually marking the damper helps sort things out. Clarification, this engine fires every 120 crank degrees, or 60 cam degrees. It sounds like Fox has a good handle on what to do next. Whatever the reason for the miss, it would have to be fairly substantial if it fouls right away? It would seem a fresh plug would work temporarily unless the cylinder itself lacks the fixins' (technical term) to allow combustion. Just pulling the rear valve cover to observe valve action may reveal something amiss. Broken spring, stuck valve? A vacuum gauge at idle would give a hint.

[Fox W.]

Hi all, I did a preliminary check today. For reference I started with cylinder #1, which has a nice clean plug always..

#1 scored a healthy 153psi with less than 1% leak for the two tests.

I had little time and was impatient so I went on to #2 next.

#2 scored a sad 22psi over 3 compression check tests.

So there is that. In my little time I did a leak down test where I thought was just a degree or two of compression TDC (I missed it by a bit and tested when the piston was moving back down) and found very little leak evidence. I fed it 80psi and it only leaked 1 or 2 psi of that.

That small leak could be heard when opening the oil cap in the valve case. But again I may have had the position wrong, plus the air moved the engine pulley quite a bit. So I consider that test useless so far. But before I head to work I wanted to make this update anyway since at least the compression check was conclusive.

[Ronnie]

Since the compression check was extremely low on one cylinder and the leak down test appears to have done OK, you might have a head gasket blown between cylinders. If you have a head gasket blown between cylinders you may be pressurizing two cylinders with valve closed at once when doing the leakdown. Testing compression on the rest of the cylinders would confirm.

[Ronnie]

... plus the air moved the engine pulley quite a bit...

Where have I heard about that happening before?

[Fox W.]

Yeah that is really good point, thanks Ronnie. I'll test the rest of them tonight. Oh and I guess just removing the plug from #4 will tell me air from #2 is coming out there. I guess that is why they recommend to remove all plugs for these tests.

Since the compression check was extremely low on one cylinder and the leak down test appears to have done OK, you might have a head gasket blown between cylinders. If you have a head gasket blown between cylinders you may be pressurizing two cylinders with valve closed at once when doing the leakdown. Testing compression on the rest of the cylinders would confirm.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Fox W. (see edit history)

[Fox W.]

Just tested and the air isn't coming out of #4. I really think my leak down is suspect, it doesn't make much sense to get such low peak compression and yet have it hold air so well. The gauge still claims only about 1psi loss. I hear and smells that air coming out of the the oil fill hole.

[Fox W.]

Scary, glad he was ok.

I can't say that I know of anyone having been hurt doing a leakdown test. If it's done correctly it might not ever cause a problem.

I can tell you first hand about my experience with air pressure and a small block Chevy engine. I had broken an inner valve spring on my '56 Chevy, 327 engine with a 4 speed. A guy at the garage where I worked told me about an easy way to change the spring without pulling the head using air pressure. I hadn't ever heard of it before but I decided to try it. I brought home the special tools from the garage that were needed to hold the valve up with air pressure so I could remove the valve spring retainer and keepers. Everything went smoothly until I connected the air hose to the fitting screwed into the spark plug hole. The transmission was in gear and the car moved forward just enough to bump my Dad's legs and then it stopped. He was standing between the front of my car and the rear bumper of his pickup truck watching his young mechanic son show him how a valve spring could be changed without pulling the head. We had no idea that the car could move. If the car had been closer to his truck my Dad would have been hurt. I really thought that I had the piston at bottom dead center but I was wrong. I learned a lesson that day.

[Guest Corvanti]

with what you've said, my 1st "best guess" would be the valves in #2.

squirt some oil thru the spark plug opening and recheck the compression. that should rule out the lower end if no significant improvement. pull the head - the problem should be there around #2, (or gasket).

[Fox W.]

Yeah I will do the wet test next, and pull the valve cover to see if there is anything obvious. The EGR to pipe bolt is frozen so I am also dealing with that slowly. I have no experience removing heads. I think I can handle valve springs and seals but I am intimidated to go further.

with what you've said, my 1st "best guess" would be the valves in #2.

squirt some oil thru the spark plug opening and recheck the compression. that should rule out the lower end if no significant improvement. pull the head - the problem should be there around #2, (or gasket).

[Guest Corvanti]

Yeah I will do the wet test next, and pull the valve cover to see if there is anything obvious. The EGR to pipe bolt is frozen so I am also dealing with that slowly. I have no experience removing heads. I think I can handle valve springs and seals but I am intimidated to go further.

it shouldn't be a problem removing the head bolts since they are well lubricated in "there". if you get some resistance part of the way up, spray some PB Blaster and wait awhile...

i'd take the head to a local well known auto-machinist for a "valve job" (i haven't needed to for many years) - not only do i not have the equipment to perform the task, i'd rather have someone that does it on a regular basis.

[Ronnie]

It is pretty obvious that something is going on with #2 cylinder. If it were me I would continue on with doing a compression check on all the cylinders before taking anything apart so you know what you've got as far as the condition of the rest of the engine is concerned.

On the other hand... there is one other explanation for low compression and a good leak down test. That would be the intake valve is not opening up to allow air into the cylinder. You have to get air into the cylinder order to be able to compress it. It would be nice if your problem is as simple as a rocker arm or push rod.

I'm anxious to hear the outcome of what is actually causing your problem.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Ronnie
added more info (see edit history)

[padgett]

My bad, I was thinking of the three marks I put on the balancer using a divider for quick reference and they are 120 degrees apart and not 60. Sorry.

[Fox W.]

Here are the compression results:

<table width="577" height="266" border="1">

<tr>

<td width="33">Cyl:</td>

<td width="80" align="center">1</td>

<td width="83" align="center">2</td>

<td width="78" align="center">3</td>

<td width="85" align="center">4</td>

<td width="93" align="center">5</td>

<td width="79" align="center">6</td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td>Dry</td>

<td align="center">152</td>

<td align="center">15</td>

<td align="center">152</td>

<td align="center">151</td>

<td align="center">157</td>

<td align="center">156</td>

</tr>

<tr>

<td>Wet</td>

<td align="center"> </td>

<td align="center">14</td>

<td align="center"> </td>

<td align="center"> </td>

<td align="center"> </td>

<td align="center"> </td>

</tr>

</table>

Edited March 8, 2013 by Fox W. (see edit history)

[Fox W.]

Wow this forum software doesn't like html. Well as we see it is isolated to that cylinder and I am feeling good about this engine considering she is 164k miles strong. It seems safe to say there is a valve issue, I believe?

[harry yarnell]

As Ronnie says, open the rocker and look for 'issues'. Start it up and look for valve action that might indicate camshaft wear (unlikely, but...)

[2seater]

All it would take is a loose rocker, bent pushrod, or blown lifter, probably intake. Bad exhaust usually coughs back through the intake. The cam could be worn, but would have to be very severe for that sort of reading. You don't seem to have other evidence of blown head gasket such as water in oil.

Edited March 8, 2013 by 2seater (see edit history)

[Guest BJM]

Very interesting. After I suggested it was a cam or valvetrain issue several posts back, I then thought to myself that the car had only sat for a long time, so how could it all the sudden be an internal mechanical issue? Yet, it seems to be the case. You stated I believe the car ran fine prior to the restoration work.

At 164,000 miles it might be time to do some head work, valves etc up to your budget. It may be a simple fix, try some of the suggestions, but if that doesn't work, then I would dig in on valuable maintenance/rebuild work for peace of mind.

[padgett]

Something is niggling in the back of my mind about worn cam lobes in a 3800 but thought that was earlier. Agree, the next step is to see if the rockers are moving and in the right pleace.

[Fox W.]

I know it ran perfectly before I left it there yeah. A friend of mine who works on engines a lot has been holding to theory that since all it did was sit a lot that some chunk of carbon has wedged a valve open.

The compression for everything except #2 was a great reading, right? I figured around 150psi is good for these cars. At its age it seemed like nice readings and they were all really close to each other. Some of the variations even were just because I cranked one a second more or less. It always seemed that second number 6 would add up to 5psi. I usually stuck to the 5 second rule.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Fox W. (see edit history)

[Ronnie]

Are you taking the valve cover off soon? You have my interest peaked.

[Fox W.]

Heh heh, mine as well. Well I made a half-hearted attempt last night, but I was really tired. It is free and ready to come off, but it seems I have to remove the steering pump, is that so? I got that bolt for the exhaust tube off of the EGR, but that wasn't enough to free it. Why couldn't this have been cylinder 1, 3 or 5.

Are you taking the valve cover off soon? You have my interest peaked.

[Ronnie]

FSM says to loosen the bolts holding the pump and slide it forward. Remove the braces going to the pump. Then you should be able to move the pump around enough for the valve cover to clear. Also says EGR valve needs to come off. I can't say first hand.

[2seater]

Yes, the EGR needs to be off. The rear cover isn't as lot of fun, as you well know. Interest is piqued here as well. The rest of the readings are indeed very good and the engine appears healthy otherwise. Fingers crossed.

[Guest Corvanti]

Yes, the EGR needs to be off. The rear cover isn't as lot of fun, as you well know. Interest is piqued here as well. The rest of the readings are indeed very good and the engine appears healthy otherwise. Fingers crossed.

agreed! let us know...

"old school" rule of compression was always if the cylinders are within 10% of each other (as long as they're not around "15" ) you are good to go. i haven't checked the comp on my reatta yet, but i've had good running SBC engines running fine at a much lower comp than the 150's.

[Fox W.]

Sounds good, I'll loosen the pump and remove the EGR tonight if I have time. I travel this weekend and the next one so I sadly won't have any time then.

[Fox W.]

Alright we have the answer. I removed the cover and found the push rod is broken from the intake valve rocker. I can see the end of the rod down in the hole a bit.

[Fox W.]

Sorry these are blurry. The rod is bent and broken. My best hope is if no other damage was done and the valve is just stuck, and I can get the rest of the rod out, and then tap the valve free, I should be able to fix it all with 1 new rod.

[Fox W.]

With a good magnet and a surgeon hand I got the broken bottom part out. I am still worried given the rods breakage. Must be one heck of a stuck valve. What other damage could this have done to the lifter or other parts? Do y'all think it is unlikely this is merely a stuck valve? It seems kind of extreme for a car that merely sat a lot, but maybe the valve is a bit rusted shut. My next step is to see if the valve is completely stuck and if I can break it free.

[Machiner 55]

Fox,

You sir are a steely eyed auto surgeon of the highest caliber. I can't, for the life of me, figure out how you got that rod out being as bent as it is! Congratulations are in order.

After briefly perusing the net, it appears that a stuck valve in an engine is not all that uncommon in an engine that has sat for some time. There are other reasons. You may want to perform a search.

You could remove the rocker and get yourself a spring compressor such as this one from H.F. (shown below, for about 13 bux) Once the tension is off the valve stem, you can remove the keepers from either side of the stem (magnet or needle nose help grab the keepers) and then pull the compressor, spring and spring cap away. The stem should just slide up and down. If it doesn't then you'll have to determine why it doesn't move freely (stuck, bent etc.). As I've never done this on an engine head that was still attached, I don't know how far the stem will go down into the cylinder before it stops against either the piston or, if the piston is at BDC, the cylinder wall. The geometry may be such that the end of the stem will disappear into the hole. I don't know. Maybe someone here has torn down a 3800 and can advise. Once you determine the root cause, you'll then know how to proceed.

On a side note. I have a 3800 on an engine stand in my garage just waiting for me to get the MOJO flowing to tear into it. The reason it's there and not in the '89 I have is because it was making a terrible knocking noise when it last ran. (My Son brought it home that way one evening a couple years back.) Being that I had another 3800 readily available, I just exchanged the two. I'm wondering now if it suffered the same condition as yours. I may go out today and pull the valve covers and just take a look-see. Other than running poorly, was your engine making a racket?

John F.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Machiner 55 (see edit history)

[Fox W.]

Thank you for the kind words, it was just patience, I'm not so experienced as I am resourceful.

Surprisingly it was not making any bad noises that I had noticed.

One must first put the cylinder under air pressure to keep the valve from falling down after removing the spring, otherwise it goes out of reach and you must remove the head then.

[Machiner 55]

Fox,

One must first put the cylinder under air pressure to keep the valve from falling down after removing the spring, otherwise it goes out of reach and you must remove the head then.

Never thought about applying air!

Good idea.

John F.

[Fox W.]

This all still doesn't explain to me why it had 10psi compression, if the valve is stuck closed.

[Machiner 55]

Fox,

Perhaps the valve was pushed partially open, then froze, before the rod failed.

John F.

[Ronnie]

This all still doesn't explain to me why it had 10psi compression, if the valve is stuck closed.

As I said back in post #95 this will explain the low compression reading.

"On the other hand... there is one other explanation for low compression and a good leak down test. That would be the intake valve is not opening up to allow air into the cylinder. You have to get air into the cylinder order to be able to compress it. It would be nice if your problem is as simple as a rocker arm or push rod."

If you decide to remove the spring with air pressure there are special tools that will make the job much easier. You might be able to borrow or rent them from your local garage. Let me know if you need a description of what to look for.

If it were me I would remove the rocker arm and use a few light to medium blows from a plastic dead shot hammer to determine if the valve is stuck Hit right on the end of the valve stem avoiding hitting the retainer or keepers. IF the valve isn't stuck really tightly that might be all that is needed to free it up. IF hitting it with the dead blow hammer you get the feeling that you are hitting something solid that will not move you might as well spend your time removing the head instead of removing the spring. It is going to have to come off anyway if the valve is struck that tight.

I would bet the first thing that happened is the valve stuck open part way allowing lots of slack in the rocker arm and push rod. Driving that way probably caused the push rod to break. I hope you don't have more serious problems.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Ronnie (see edit history)

[Machiner 55]

The reason I like the idea of compressing the spring as opposed to wracking the stem with a hammer is that if you hit it with a hammer and it frees up, you won't really know for sure if it was stuck in the first place.

John F.

[Ronnie]

Regardless of the method used I would flood that valve stem with Marvel Mystery oil and let it sit for a while first. It works miracles for problems like this.