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1989 Reatta - finished 8 month restoration - now with engine trouble *SOLVED*


Fox W.

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Sticking valves happens fairly often on an old Allis Chalmers tractor I have. They wouldn't stick closed but would hang up when open, particularly because of the low spring tension. Tapping on the end and lubricating generally did the trick. It does seem strange that it would stick that tightly after that length storage. Mine sits unmoletsed for at least six months at a time, and has done so for almost twenty years and never an issue. I have encountered bent pushrods on long term storage engines before, and have never had any issue simply tapping on the end of the valve stem, or a lever against the end of the valve, but it has to be square to the long axis. The springs don't have a lot of seat pressure and you can actually move them by hand. If it moves but stays in the new position, you may have to bite the bullet on pulling the head. I don't believe the lifter should be damaged and it can't get out of the lifter bore due to the dogbone that keeps it aligned. The only posibility would be if the lifter has been banging on the cam lobe due to lack of tension to keep the roller on the cam. It doesn't sound like a lot of mles were accumulated while in this condition so IMHO, if you can get the valve free, I would replace the pushrod and run it.

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I wasn't looking for it, but I stumbled across this reference in another automotive forum. It was in response to a person that experienced stuck valves on a relatively new engine. His is likely a mechanical issue but the reference was interesting. For what it's worth:

Intake valves seldom stick in the guide....the few times I have seen an intake guide stick it was because of shellac (SP) buildup on the stem...I have seen this more than once and it was on older vehicles that had sat for a long time ...the old shellac in the fuel system dissolves from the ethanol rich fuel that we have now....it is carried by the fuel where it deposits on the warm intake valve and turns back to shallac sticking the valve in the stem....Headcase

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I completely agree and as I was falling to sleep last night I thought to myself about you saying that earlier regarding air not getting in. I guess it was not intuitive to me because I didn't know there would be that much of a vacuum in there that it couldn't make pressure still.

As I said back in post #95 this will explain the low compression reading.

"On the other hand... there is one other explanation for low compression and a good leak down test. That would be the intake valve is not opening up to allow air into the cylinder. You have to get air into the cylinder order to be able to compress it. It would be nice if your problem is as simple as a rocker arm or push rod."

If you decide to remove the spring with air pressure there are special tools that will make the job much easier. You might be able to borrow or rent them from your local garage. Let me know if you need a description of what to look for.

If it were me I would remove the rocker arm and use a few light to medium blows from a plastic dead shot hammer to determine if the valve is stuck Hit right on the end of the valve stem avoiding hitting the retainer or keepers. IF the valve isn't stuck really tightly that might be all that is needed to free it up. IF hitting it with the dead blow hammer you get the feeling that you are hitting something solid that will not move you might as well spend your time removing the head instead of removing the spring. It is going to have to come off anyway if the valve is struck that tight.

I would bet the first thing that happened is the valve stuck open part way allowing lots of slack in the rocker arm and push rod. Driving that way probably caused the push rod to break. I hope you don't have more serious problems.

Edited by Fox W. (see edit history)
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I have gotten bent pushrods before and never had to do more than just replace. I would be tempted to just remove the rocker, put the nut on top, and use a pickle fork to see if the valve is stuck. No air or spring compressor needed since not trying to remove the springs or retainer.

Would be a good time to spin the others to see if any more are bent.

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I will check if others are bent. I put the new rod in after freeing the valve and turned the engine manually a few cycles, the valve opened normally now. I'm waiting on a couple little parts and also dealing with a broken valve cover bolt that is in the head. It was like that before I opened it, which explained the massive amount of RTV sealant in that area.. it is at a corner, so not as easy to compensate for.. I'd really like to reverse that bolt out, but it won't be easy. I tried drilling it but the steel is too hard. If I don't want to remove the head I may have to just do the previous 'fix' again. (lots of goo)

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Is there any of the bolt sticking out? If so, I have had some luck plug welding a nut over the stub. The shock of the heating sometimes helps break the grip after it is cooled rapidly. Of course it makes drilling on it more difficult if it doesn't work. :(

I suspect it's broken down in the hole. It will take a good high end drill bit to puncture that bolt.

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I was going to suggest welding a short length (about 8 inches) of 1/4" round stock, bent at a 90* angle at the mid point (or what ever length works for clearance) but, if there's enough of the bolt sticking out to weld a nut on, the nut would be a better choice. The rod trick works if the threads of the bolt haven't "welded" itself to the threaded hole. Before attempting either method, I suggest a PB Blaster (or similar) soaking for a day or so.

Fox, could you post a pic of the offending bolt?

John F.

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Fox-

Dealer part, AFAIK. I replaced a few on my 91 as the heads were a bit worn from a previous removal. I checked several auto parts stores and got blank stares (or suggestions to go to the dealer). If you have a salvage yard nearby, I'm sure decent ones could be had from any number of cars in the yard with a late 80's vintage 3800, assuming they would let you have just the bolts (might not want the engine left exposed like that).

KDirk

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There are at least two different bolts and sleeves that fit. One is a shorter bolt and sleeve. The other one has a longer bolt and sleeve. Be careful when you replace them as if you mix them up you will have leaks. If you go to the bone yard make sure that you get the correct bolts and sleeves. Also check the rubber washers as there are at least two different ones.

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There are several Pick-N-Pulls around with lots of 3800s waiting to provide parts. Kitskaboodle and I were over at one of the San Jose yards a couple of weekends ago. Too bad we didn't know then, or we could have picked up a few bolts and pushrods for you.

Oh, and Kevin, the yards seem like they could care less about what condition you leave the car in after pulling parts. All headed to the jaws of Death in a few days anyway.

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Good to know. I could only find the L26 version that also works on the LN3:

Engine Camshaft & Valve Rocker Cover. BOLT. WASHER. # 24502164, 25530330, 25534746

Comes as a pack of 5 for about $20.

There are at least two different bolts and sleeves that fit. One is a shorter bolt and sleeve. The other one has a longer bolt and sleeve. Be careful when you replace them as if you mix them up you will have leaks. If you go to the bone yard make sure that you get the correct bolts and sleeves. Also check the rubber washers as there are at least two different ones.
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Of course, I will update this thread to the end. Last night was the first new progress where I finally had all my parts and reassembled everything. I had to use a ton of RTV to compensate for that broken valve cover bolt so I am waiting 24 hours for that to all cure before I will run it.

This morning though, about 30min ago I did a compression check on #2 ; the result was disappointing, it gets about 100psi. This bothers me indeed. I have little choice but to just run it and drive it for a few days and hope something improves if the valve is possibly wedged with carbon or anything, I don't know. But 50psi down from the others is a lot. This test was done wet so I don't think it's the rings.

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not opening for a while is not good, do 3800s have valve rotators - they used to do a little fine lapping every time the valve opened and if so this has not been happening for a while. Just running for a while should help. 100 psi is a lot better than 22.

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That is encouraging. Tonight I drove her around. The result is that the core engine health feels pretty restored. The troubles though are the idle still hunting around, between as low as 400 up to 700. The exhaust also smells strong. I got E044 twice, which I think means the O2 thinks it is lean..? It is possible the O2 sensor is messed up from the previous condition, or something else minor has a problem still. It is progress.

Edited by Fox W. (see edit history)
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Not sure about the effect of the dead cylinder on the O2 over time. There is no doubt the injector was still operating, but what became of the extra fuel is difficult to tell. The valve should have been completely closed so the fuel should not have affected the dead cylinder but it is possible it was open a tiny bit, no way to know for sure. I imagine the battery has been disconnected at some point to allow the ECM to relearn the restored operating conditions. If so, it will take a short time for it to relearn the correct settings, and if just operated for a short time in open loop, it will likely not run properly, yet. I would certainly change the O2 to start fresh. The hunting idle is usually a sticky IAC, but it may just be trying to catch the engine due to some other operational glitch. I do not know how long it has been driven after the repair, but I would suggest a battery disconnect to reset the ECM, a new O2 and drive it around for a while under varying conditions and speeds. The stock system is remarkably flexible if allowed to adjust itself. You might also watch the various sensor readings to see what it thinks is happening.

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Guest Mc_Reatta

Should have had anti-seize compound on threads that usually make them fairly easy to break loose.

Try tapping the socket with a hammer a few times and then using a beefy ratchet or breaker bar to break loose while hot.

Then let cool to remove all the way and replace. Make sure new one has anti-seize on the threads before installing.

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Guest Corvanti

what padgett said about a good soak with PB Blaster. i replaced my O2 sensor a month or so ago.

i used this O2 socket i picked up a couple years ago for other projects: 7/8'' Oxygen Sensor Socket

...with a 24" long 1/2 inch breaker bar, adapter for the 3/8th socket and extensions - from the top... no problems. :)

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This time I had no trouble for some reason, it was even cold and I didn't have a chance to do any penetrating lube. Anyway, new O2 sensor in, computers reset and now it runs like a champ. Phew! It goes in to closed loop right as soon as it should and the values for the sensors are all normal. During my drive the idle and everything were normal for a recently reset ECU. Now I can get on with the other details like registration/smog, alignment. (The alignment is severely off due to lower front control arm swaps.) This was because the brake reaction rods were rusted out between the bushings.

My sincere thanks to all of you for taking interest and for the help.

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In a place named "Mountain View" you'd think every day would be clear.:)

Must be like" Valparaiso" (Vale of Paradise). It's not.

Actually it is a lot like Valparaiso out here in the Silicon Valley (e.g., from roughly Palo Alto down through Mountain View, Sunnyvale, Santa Clara, and San Jose.) We can go for months on end with clear blue skies during the day. Even in the 'winter' time (like it gets down into the 30s at night - brrrr) our micro-climate is protected from a lot of the Pacific weather by the Santa Cruz mountains. Though occasionally winter rains can be doosies - with drenching rains and 30-50 mph winds. At night, the fog rolls in - cooling the entire area. I've done some camping up in the hills, e.g., near the top of Mt Hamilton, and when you look out over the Bay Area at about 3 AM, it looks like a massive ocean of cloud below you. Just a few peaks stick up above it.

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wws944,

Not wanting thread drift but I think that maybe I was misunderstood.

The name Valparaiso means "Paradise valley" or some such thing. Valley of Paradise it is not.

I would hate to think the area of which you speak is the same. Please don't ruin it for me. :eek:

John F.

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Not wanting thread drift but I think that maybe I was misunderstood.

The name Valparaiso means "Paradise valley" or some such thing. Valley of Paradise it is not.

I would hate to think the area of which you speak is the same. Please don't ruin it for me. :eek:

Hadn't noticed your Location. Actually I was referring to Valparaiso, Chile - which wikipedia describes the climate as "...a very mild Mediterranean climate (Köppen Csb) closely resembling that of San Francisco or Santa Barbara." :)

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That whole Palo Alto, Mountain View, Sunnyvale, San Jose area has a wonderful climate, almost as good as Santa Monica/Marina Del Rey. Too bad there are so many people and taxes.

The people I can deal with. The taxes....

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I do my best with all the people here but I am more of a rural sort. The taxes and other associated costs are offset for me by the greater ratio of pay compared to other places I've been. It is real estate that is out of reach, though I have no interest in buying here anyway.

The weather is usually what many may find to be near perfect, but I'm one of the few here who greatly prefer a mix of cloudy and rainy days. Most of the time it is clear, dry and warm though.

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It is off getting the alignment today and has been running great. I wanted to note something about those Bosch IIIs injectors ; They work great ( I cannot say they are really noticeably better) but will throw off the fuel consumption calculations. For this reason I may have my originals cleaned up/serviced and install them again. Unless I can find out the exact delta of the pulse width/curve and the volume ratio per-pulse, I could not know how to have the calculation values updated for the new injectors. I also do not know if the consumption program is calculated on the EMC or the CRTC. If it were on the CRTC then forget it. Which brings me to another random note.. Many years ago (like 2004-2005) I used to talk about wanting to reverse engineer the CRTC, well it is time to admit that doesn't look likely.. I know big surprise huh.. Sorry. I've got a spare of one and low-level hardware guys I've shown it to say it would be a hell of a challenge.

Edited by Fox W. (see edit history)
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  • 2 years later...

I was just reading through this thread today and I had to post this to again convey my greatest appreciation to you all here.  The energy and help in this thread is rarely seen on other sites, what an amazing bunch we have here.   Also not sure if I ever said but I have to mention Ronnie for impressively first realizing exactly what the test results likely pointed to regarding a bad intake value, nicely done.  Corvanti, 2seater, Machiner 55  and others were also dead-on with their thinking about what the likely problem was. And many more lead me and tipped me how to do each step correctly, huge help.

 

 For me it was all new, and a fun discovery to work inch by inch to the problem, I learned a lot and enjoyed it, and I hope it will help others too someday.

 

Thank you.

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