1989 Reatta - finished 8 month restoration - now with engine trouble *SOLVED*

[Fox W.]

*This issue is resolved. The main problem was a broken intake valve push-rod for Cyl. #2. Freeing the valve and replacing the rod worked out. o2 sensor also ended up needing replacement, I think the damage to that was secondary to the first issue though.*

Hi all. A restoration project that kept the car away from me for 8 months is complete. However now I am dealing with an engine problem. When I first took the car it had no muffler, so I didn't drive hard or pay much mind to anything but the noise. After I got that taken care of I could clearly now realize it has a problem.

The symptoms are:
Idle that is fairly even but pulsing like a boat engine, sorta. (It makes the car vibrate and shake a little.)
Main issue is that throttle in neutral and especially under load gets bogged down/shudders; under load it has very poor power.
I was able to get on a high way and maintain a tested speed of 75Mph just fine, but getting there takes time and throttle seems to do little after maybe 40%, as though there is not enough fuel.
Exhaust seems a bit stronger than usual, but not visible.

What it does not do:
Has no trouble starting, starts perfectly.
Does not diesel when shutting off, shuts off instantly, clean and quick.


What I have done so far which has made zero change/improvement (some of this was stuff I was happy to do regardless) Model is 1989:
Filled fuel tank to full.
New air filter
Replaced plugs.
Replaced wires.
Replaced coils. (I use the later Delco coils, not Magnavox.)
Swapped ICM with a used spare I had. Made no change at all.
Cleaned MAF
Did some seafoam through the intake
Checked all vacuum hoses that I could find
Listened to each injector with a stethoscope to confirm proper open/close clicking.

There are no codes. ; I have tried driving it for a bit but nothing improves.

My clues: Plug #2 was wet and fouled looking, other 5 looked normal; have not rechecked since new plugs. ; Fuel tank has been replaced at the shop with a used original that was very clean, and they cleaned it out with gas. Yet possibly fuel delivery issue based on how it feels. Would a lack of fuel behave like that? Perhaps fuel filter next? How can one do a volume test on these modern cars? (Since it doesn't run the pump non-stop until the engine is running.)

Thanks guys for any ideas.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Fox W. (see edit history)

[KDirk]

Fox,

This will probably sound stupid, but check that the plug wires are routed correctly. I had similar power and driveability problems with my 88 and went through all manner of troubleshooting when I finally discovered the even/odd wires were reversed with respect to the cylinders. Further, the factory service manual is erroneous in this regard, it reverses the even and odd cylinder banks in the section on engine tuneup and igition troubleshooting. I neglected to check it sooner as the previous owner had done a tuneup so plugs and wires were new and the routing matched what the factory manual stated. Stupid of me to assume either or both of those were correct.

An easy way to confirm this since you have the Delco coils (if they are factory parts marked with the corresponding cylinder numbers, new OEM and aftermarket replacement coils usually aren't) is to look at the harness connector on each injector - it will be marked with the cylinder number. Make sure the spark plug wire for that cylinder is connected to the coil tower that matches the number stamped on the injector harness connector.

Again, I know this sounds obvious but I missed it initially, and I am a pretty decent troubleshooter. Further, after reading the factory manual troubleshooting on the ignition system - which was mis-printed as outlined above - I didn't bother to physically check the connections on the car until I had exhausted all other possibilities. Essentially, I put too much trust in 1) other people's work done prior to my ownership of the car, and 2) the accuracy of the factory service data. Of course, I had multiple other problems that had to be corrected first and all of that delayed/masked the discovery of the plug wire mis-routing as well. A lesson learned the hard way, no doubt.

I should also point out that in my case, no codes were set, it just ran poorly and lacked power.

KDirk

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Clean your idle air controller:

IAC Cleaning Instructions - Reatta Owners Journal

Check your fuel pressure with a gauge. Can tell you if you have a dirty filter, faulty pressure regulator or failing pump.

Replace the O2 sensor.

Check setting and smooth operation of throttle position sensor in diagnostics.

[NCReatta]

If your plugs are fouled. You pretty clearly have an ignition problem.

I would go back to the magnavox. Per some "suggestions" I tried to "upgrade". Went through two different sets if the Delco coils. Kept having problem after problem. Clogged my cat, etc. put a magnavox on, problem solved in 15 minutes.

[Fox W.]

Kdirk: Yeah that was the first stuff I checked before touching anything in case the shop touched it, and I used the injector numbers. My engine cover is always off so they are exposed and easy to see already. It was correct. When I replaced the wires I did so one by one in the exact manner the previous ones were connected, and used the injector numbers as my paranoid cross-check. The only thing I did not do was replace the ignition control module, and I do have a spare one on hand, but I really have my doubts.

---

Aside from checking fuel pressure and replacing the O2 sensor yet, I think it is important for me to reinforce a few things regarding ignition: This issue occurred before I touched anything at all, it occurred the moment I drove it away from the body shop after it had mostly sat for the past 8 months. ; After I made the listed changes the issue is identical still. I will not switch back to the Magnavox coils (If I even had them still) because I made that swap 7 years ago and had zero issues with the Delco coils/module since. I changed the coils because I happened to have 3 new Jacobs coils that are the same but a bit stronger than the Delco ones. I did this because ignition sounds like the most obvious thing and so it was worth a try. I always cleaned my IAC regularly, and this issue goes well beyond an idle issue, would that really have the ability to cause this much trouble? The car is such that if you floor it while at 35Mph it will not even downshift because there isn't enough power/vacuum to get the transmission to do so.

I do appreciate the ideas, and I will replace the O2 sensor, I have 2 new Bosch spares on hand.

I hear that unplugging the MAF will make it go in to limp mode, but for me it made it stall entirely. For what that is worth. I forgot to mention I also replaced the air filter first thing, since who knows how much body shop dust may have been in there.

[Fox W.]

Just to be more paranoid, here is picture of my car with what I think is correct and as it is wired now. As I understand, the module has its 3 banks of coils and each coil fires two plugs at once. The lowest bank fires 1,4 ; mid fires 2,5 ; top fires 3,6.

[rogold99]

Could try an exhaust backpressure tester, screws into the oxygen sensor hole. Maybe the catalytic converter is plugged.

[Fox W.]

Maybe, I'll likely try other things first since the car without a muffler was flowing so well, was loud and had lots of output. It also has lots of output now withe the new muffler. The car runs poorly even at idle when it doesn't need as much throughput as it needed when I had it at 75Mph.

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Also do a tap test on the MAF.

Pull plugs again and reinspect. Make sure boots are good and plugs not damaged or cracked.

Your running out of low cost options.

After those you'll be looking at replacing ICM and or MAF

[Fox W.]

I did the tap test. How much is a MAF? They don't look like much $ on Ebay at least. The wires alone were $100, and everything I did in the past year was 11k, so at this point nothing feels expensive. And no one tell me I could have gotten a minty for that, I know. It isn't the point.

I already have a spare ICM on hand as I mentioned earlier. Thanks.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Fox W. (see edit history)

[Barney Eaton]

Your Reatta has onboard diagnostics....... Using section 8D of the Service Manual, you can check all of the engine perameters without getting your hands dirty. After going thru all the ECM tests you should have a good idea of what may be wrong.

[2seater]

Do you have any "old school" tools available, such as a compression gauge and vacuum gauge? A fuel pressure tester isn't really old school, but is good for any more modern vehicle. They will give you a basic idea of the condition of the engine itself. If the engine is sick internally, no amount of external massage will cure it. From your description, it sounds like a dead cylinder for some reason, fuel, spark or compression. A decent compound vacuum gauge, can double as the exhaust backpressure gauge but you also need an adapter to install in place of the O2 sensor. Disconnecting the MAF while running may indeed cause a stall, but if disconnected prior to starting, it should start and run.

[Machiner 55]

Fox W.

My wife came home the a few days ago freaked out by the way her car ('98 Olds 88) was running. I plugged in a code reader and got a PO300.

That indicates random misfires. Instead of going where my gut told me to go, I checked online and started going down the list of likely faults. After wasting much time chasing ghosts, I got out my spark tester and started working up the coil pack from #1. I had spark on all coil terminals except #6 & #3. Now this kinda pissed me off as the misfires weren't random at all. They were consistently on 3 and 6. Anyway...

I replace the 6-3 coil module and it still misfired. I swapped coil module locations and it still missed on 6-3. Had an ICM pulled from a '93 Pontiac Bonneville on hand (same PN as the one for '89 Olds) installed it and voila! Problem solved!

So, I suggest you connect a spark tester on each wire and see if you have good consistent spark on each one. Since you've changed the coil modules already, and you still lack spark somewhere, change your ICM. Get one from a salvage yard to verify that you need one. Then buy a new one and keep the salvage unit as a spare.

John F.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Machiner 55 (see edit history)

[padgett]

P0300 just means "more than one cyl misfiring" which you had - you need to run test $06 to see which cyls are misfiring (Torque on my smart phone: $5, bluetooth dongle $20). Can even email the result to yourself.

Mode $06 report generated by Torque for Android

...

--

MID:$a2 TID:$0b

EWMA Misfire counts (average) for last 10 drive cycles - Misfire Cylinder 1 Data

Max: 65,535Count Min: 0Count

Test result value: 1Count

PASS

----

MID:$a2 TID:$0c

Misfire counts for last/current driving cycles(calculated) - Misfire Cylinder 1 Data

Max: 65,535Count Min: 0Count

Test result value: 1Count

PASS

....

[Fox W.]

I replaced the ICM with my spare I had, zero change. Only new thing I have to note is that I've noticed if I give it a surge of throttle it will sometimes want to die after, it has twice. However most of the time it compensates. I just took it out after doing the ICM swap and it was the same deal, very weak with a stutter/shudder when you try to accelerate.

[Fox W.]

Your Reatta has onboard diagnostics....... Using section 8D of the Service Manual, you can check all of the engine perameters without getting your hands dirty. After going thru all the ECM tests you should have a good idea of what may be wrong.

Yeah I was looking that over last night, I'll get to that next.

[Guest 89 Maui]

Have you checked your fuel pressure, It sounds very similiar to my '89 when the fuel pump was dying. It would start and idle ok but when accellerating it had a great loss of power but would mainstain a steady speed. 50 miles later the fuel pump went under the tombstone.

Woody

[Fox W.]

Yeah at this point fuel seems likely seeing as I had the tank swapped. The pump is new'ish and AC Delco, but I do not yet know the status of the strainer or filter, so that is next. Too bad I don't have a pressure gauge on hand yet.

[Fox W.]

I'd like to also note that it does not surge or buck, it is actually pretty consistent and stable in its current weak and somewhat shuddery state.

[Guest Corvanti]

"fuel injector pump tester" : Search results for: 'fuel injection pump tester'

if you have a "harbor freight" near you, or order online. i wouldn't use it for everyday "mechanics" use, but works well.

change your fuel filter first if there's a pressure problem. should be close to 42 psi.

if the psi checks out, i'd go with "2seater's" post about comp and vac tests, if you're sure it's not the IAC.

[Fox W.]

Should I be testing on the fuel rail, or do I test under the car at the input to the filter? I suppose I should also remove the regulator on the return to see if there is clogging evidence. My fuel lines are a bit rusty in the back at the tank. The body shop was going to replace them but couldn't get a specialist that was confident they could do the fittings, so they left it so not to risk putting the car in a non-running state.

[Guest Corvanti]

fuel rail - the schrader valve in front. and yes, check the regulator.

[Guest 89 Maui]

When my fuel pump died and my '89 was on the lift, I walked under the car to get a good view as how the under carriage looked and my fuel lines were rusted really bad and I knew I was going to have to deal with it. About 3 weeks later I found a '90 was being parted out. Buick had steel fuel lines in '88 & '89 but Buick changed the '90 & '91 to neoprene lines. I got the neoprene lines and the fuel pump assy was required because of the different fittings. I also got the fuel tank. I sanded down the fuel tank and sprayed primer and enamel paint, it looks brand new. I highly recommend changing the steel lines to the neoprene lines if you are having a rusty steel line situation, but the one thing is trying to reuse the rusted steel line connectors will more than likely will end up rounding off the connectors then it becomes a tylenol headache. I posted my changeout on Ronnies REATTAOWNER forum with pics, you might want to check it out, you will not regret going with the neoprene fuel lines.

Woody

[Machiner 55]

Padgett,

Won't ever own a "smart" phone. Won't own a phone that's smarter than me.

The only Torque I have is a wrench. A Craftsman. From Sears.:eek:

I do have a dongle. Didn't have to pay for it. Came as standard equipment. Wife thinks it's a good idea to have one.

But... thanks for the info.

John F.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Machiner 55 (see edit history)

[Fox W.]

Thanks for all the help, here are the latest updates: I got a FI pressure gauge and tested it at the fuel rail, it shows between 36 to 42, mostly holding around 40. I also got a coil tester and now can see for sure that all the coils are firing and look identical to each other. So now it seems I am on to injectors, at least one of them. Seem reasonable?

[2seater]

Yes, it does seem reasonable. I am not quite sure what to make of the variable fuel pressure unless that is under varying conditions. The rated fuel pressure is 43.5 psi with the key on and engine off. Anything over 40 should be fine. When the engine is running it will lower the fuel pressure by approximately 1/2 of the reading on a vacuum gauge, so mid-30's or so is about right for an idling engine. If the vacuum is disconnected from the pressure regulator, it should jump up to over 40, or if the throttle is blipped, the fuel pressure should jump up as well. If it varies when the engine is running steadily, something is wrong. Does the fuel pressure hold for a while after engine shutdown? If an injector is stuck open it will drop steadily or possibly a defect in the fuel pump. You can turn the individual injectors on and off in diagnostics to see if there is a discernable change. I believe you mentioned a rough idle and this may give a clue, especially #2 if that was the plug that was fouled.

[Machiner 55]

Fox W.

Reasonable, yes. As I've had no experience with injector issues, maybe some others have.

You may find something here: Repair Tips, Tutorials & Information - Reatta Owners Journal

John F.

[padgett]

Just as an off the wall, do you have a K&N air filter ? I have heard of the oil from the filter contaminating the MAF & without the MAF reading properly, the engine never knows you are acellerating but should set a code). Might need cleaning anyway.

I like being able to hang up on spam calls from my wrist watch.

Edited February 25, 2013 by padgett (see edit history)

[Fox W.]

Yeah based on what you said it is behaving correctly. It blips higher when the engine throttle is blipped, and it very stable otherwise overall.

[Fox W.]

Hi Padgett, no K&N for me, just generic STP or FRAM type stuff.

Just as an off the wall, do you have a K&N air filter ? I have heard of the oil from the filter contaminating the MAF & without the MAF reading properly, the engine never knows you are acellerating but should set a code). Might need cleaning anyway.

I like being able to hang up on spam calls from my wrist watch.

[Machiner 55]

I like being able to hang up on spam calls from my wrist watch.

Wa-chew tawkin bout Willis?

John F.

[padgett]

It is amazing how well a 3800 will run if two plug wires are swapped between coils, just no power and a bit rough when you rev it.

[Fox W.]

Was the picture I attached which showed my wiring correct?

It is amazing how well a 3800 will run if two plug wires are swapped between coils, just no power and a bit rough when you rev it.

[Fox W.]

Fuel rail off, injectors removed. Waiting for replacements to come in. I believe they will be Bosch type III injectors, which it seems will work on the LN3. Anyone have info on that?

[padgett]

Picture looks right though I cannot tell if connected properly. If that is a CS-144 alternator, the plug wires may be pinched where they run under it, usually can only do that with a CS-130.

[2seater]

As far as I know, there is a direct replacement type III injector available, although I do not know the part number. Many of the type III have a different electrical connector, EV6, where our injectors us the EV1 pattern. There are adapters readily available should that be an issue.

[ol' yeller]

On a previous Reatta, I took my injectors to a nearby DR Injector shop. They rebuilt and tested them for around $75 if my memory serves. That way I knew I was getting them back with no problems.

[Fox W.]

They are running beside it very freely, no pinching. I've followed them and redone them so much now between the plugs, wires and coils. If I am following those shown numbers then I shouldn't be consistently making the same error that many times. Also this issue was happening in the identical way before I touched it, and the wires were in their 'trained' position still, didn't look like anyone touched it at the body shop.

Thanks.

Picture looks right though I cannot tell if connected properly. If that is a CS-144 alternator, the plug wires may be pinched where they run under it, usually can only do that with a CS-130.

[padgett]

Well maybe it is time for a full diagnostic snapshot with the engine idling.

[Fox W.]

6 Gen 3 Bosch injectors on the way, with EV1 connectors.

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