General question about using the internet to inquire about a car you are thinking of buying

[HistoryBuff]

In the olden days (I am talking 1980s) I used to be a car finder.

My procedure was thus and so. I would send a picture to Auto Trade and say "Old Ferrari (or whatever) wanted, dents, OK, blown engine OK, send pictures and description." And once in a while a fish would bite. I would then send the pictures on to potential buyers back East and they would leisurely, months later, decide whether to send the money for me to buy it.

But now is the age of the internet.

Now if I e-maile da picture to one guy and he is not sure of the value of the car he might e-mail it to 5 others and each of those to five others so 26 people know about the car. They might then have access to club rosters so they can findout who owns it, and the car would be

"Claim jumped" out from under me.

Which leads me to conclude it must be a more perilous business now because you are forced to buy the car when you first discover it because otherwise once it gets on the net the whole world knows it's been found.

Am I wrong about my conclusion?

[Guest 37Packard]

Look up the value yourself on one of the old car appraisal sites instead of asking other people what they think it's worth....

[West Peterson]

To answer your question, I think you are correct. If you want to secure the deal, you need to buy before you have a buyer. There may be that rare occasion where you actually become the only person to know about a car, but the days of being able to hold that information to yourself are gone.

[F&J]

Am I wrong about my conclusion?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

It's the way you are trying to do it. If you see a car to flip, then buy it ASAP.

If you don't have the funds to do it that way, then it won't work very well.

You may even get into hot water with the owner, if you put ads on the net showing HIS car with your inflated price. He very well might find out, and when you found a buyer based at what the owner "once offered it to you", he could tell you to go pound sand. Then you would need to tell the buyer he can't have it...because you don't own it....and never did.

[R W Burgess]

.............. Then you would need to tell the buyer he can't have it...because you don't own it....and never did.

Can you say possible lawsuit?

[Rusty_OToole]

The way the economy has been going for the last 5 years I don't know where you find the customers to buy them. I guess there must be lots of desperate sellers who have lost their jobs, homes, etc that you can take advantage of but it sounds like the buyers are getting wise, or running out of free to spend dough.

Edited February 22, 2013 by West Peterson (see edit history)

[Paul Dobbin]

One of the common discussions on this Forum revolves around people fishing for buyers of cars we suspect they don't own or know personally and can't really give a good, fair & accurate descriptions or photo's there of. Your conclusion is right, just like flea market finds, if you don't buy it when you see it, it's probably to late to go back. Re-selling something you don't own borders on fraud and our hobby has enough of that without process you describe.

Solution, take a chance. Buy it, research it, document it and offer accurate sales descriptions and hope you can make a profit.

It's not easy.

[West Peterson]

The OP is not suggesting anything of the sort... fraud I mean. Go back and read the way he operated.

[F&J]

The OP is not suggesting anything of the sort... fraud I mean. Go back and read the way he operated.

I miss stuff, so I did read it again.

He worded to sound like the potential buyer does know it is not his car, but, it sounds like the real owner of the car has no idea he is marketing the car.

Me? I would instantly contact the local state police if I found out MY car was being offered by someone for sale, by email, or whatever other means. That is fraud. The CT state police have an internet "sting" unit. As far as I heard, they mainly act on stolen stuff showing up on the auction sites, but they might act on this type of instance.

[1937hd45]

I've never understood how someone with a Ferrari or other high end vehicle could possibly lack the knowledge of how to sell it. Letting a total stranger sell it for whatever he wants to charge for it is off the charts crazy. I've bought and sold parts all my life, I CAN afford to buy them, mark them up and sell them at a profit. Taking the risk with my money is the American way of doing things. Bob

[Guest bofusmosby]

Dealing with old car, and other valuable collectible items are pretty much the same. The better you are educated in what you are looking for (or at) the better your chances are of getting a good deal, that can be turned for a profit if this is your motive. I collect many different types of things, and I have tried to learn as much as possible on these items, so if I happen by a flea market, then my decision to buy will be an educated one, based on no only what I see, but what I know. I agree with what has been said. If you snooze, you loose.

[Restorer32]

There are dealers who will find a potentially valuable car and "buy" it with a small deposit and a promise of settlement in 30 days or whatever then work like fools to sell the car at a profit before they actually have to pay for it. Some are quite successful at it but it takes nerves and knowledge of where best to market which cars. Upside they can make a nice profit. Downside they lose their deposit and their reputation takes a hit. Ethical? Not for me to decide.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

To echo West I am not sure the OP's intent was to suggest anything less than "above board", that said, he is stating the obvious that the internet has fundamentally changed the hobby. Sometimes even lower end cars or projects are moving at a lightning pace despite the junk economy as Bob points out. Hobbyists now compete with online dealers who are knowledgeable about what they can make a profit on and are not afraid to buy online. "finders" doing the type of matchmaking the OP describes I think is getting to be more of a peripheral thing.

Here is an example of what I am talking about. I have been looking for a couple of cars lately, an XKE coupe being one of them. A couple months ago I spot a 2+2, NOM, manual but non original transmission, Series II, in complete but non running condition for $5,500. Described as solid and appeared so in the pics. Day of it being posted on CL. Not really what I want for a lot of reasons BUT it looked good enough in the pics that I felt based on prices for these, it was not going to last. I am looking for my next keeper and was not inclined to chase it myself. Well the car shows up within a couple of days on a NY dealer's website, and the description, while simillar had lost the fact about the non original manual trans. (an aside, but makes you wonder...) It was absolutely the same car as both the CL ad and dealer pics were very good. Dealer had listed it I think around $7,500 - CL ad was still up! The car was gone in a matter of a couple weeks from the dealer. I also saw that scenario play out with a Morgan in NJ not too long ago as well, which based on description was absolutely the same car.

Moral of the story, Internet is not just a tool for high end sales. If you are scouring the usual Internet sources, you are competing with dealers who know a deal when they see it, and are willing to make a phone deal. On the flip side, guys like Gullwing and Bev. Hills provide a service in that they do bring a lot of project cars to market, so you may pay their markup but may not have to wait years for just that special car.

This is just a small example of how Internet has fundamentally changed the hobby, but I think it has diminished the "locator's" role a bit - a good thing, IMHO as it weeds out some of these guys. Maybe it is worth it in some instances as a Packard specialist for example, may be aware of cars that are not yet being marketed. Another thought on CCCA type cars, many owners are not Internet savvy so networking seems to work better there, but by and large, it is not the 80s anymore.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[alsancle]

I think the value proposition for a "car finder" has gone way way down. Anybody with a car can post a few pictures somewhere on the Internet and all the marketing needed has been accomplished in about 2 hours.

So the OP's conclusion about "car finding" being a perilous business is true. There is really no value in the work and if someone with a car has access to the Internet the "car finder" is cooked.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Agree, A.J. and the only other comment I would make is after re-reading the above practive may be questionable from a legal perspective if OP would take money for a car he or she neither owns nor has a consignment agreement on. When I initially read this I assumed it was a real reader's digest view of a transaction or negotiation, but if it is literal, as a buyer I can do without those kinds of services. Never bought a consigned car, but have sold via consignment, always agreeing ahead of time on "bottom line price" to make my guy's life a little easier, and always exclusive, again for simplicity and the agent then will work a bit more, IMHO.

[Rusty_OToole]

He's trying to scam a sucker into selling him a car cheap, then flip it to another sucker for a big profit, without investing any money, doing any work or taking any risk or exhibiting any skill or knowledge.

That seems to be the way a lot of people think these days. Forget about work, work is for suckers. Give us the fast buck, the slick trick, the scam and the gimmick.

Technically, it is possible to do this without actually breaking any laws. But it is a lot harder to pull off than it looks, without crossing the line into fraud or worse.

[1937hd45]

Rusty, You are a better wordsmith than I am, but I do agree with the above statement 110%. Bob

[Restorer32]

It has always been thus. How many auction goers do you think actually know that it's perfectly legal for the auctioneer to take "chandalier" bids up to the reserve price or that the car they are bidding on may actually be owned by the auction house? Always goes back to Buyer Beware.

[West Peterson]

He's trying to scam a sucker into selling him a car cheap, then flip it to another sucker for a big profit, without investing any money, doing any work or taking any risk or exhibiting any skill or knowledge.

That seems to be the way a lot of people think these days. Forget about work, work is for suckers. Give us the fast buck, the slick trick, the scam and the gimmick.

Technically, it is possible to do this without actually breaking any laws. But it is a lot harder to pull off than it looks, without crossing the line into fraud or worse.

This response I just do not understand, let alone agree. If Mr. Buyer and Mr. Middle Man are discussing cars, and Mr. Buyer says, "If you can find a nine-cylinder Extrablast Special for under $10,000, I'd be interested in buying." After Mr. Middle Man locates one for sale, and finds that the posted asking price is $5,000, he gives Mr. Buyer a call, describes the car in detail, sends photos, etc. He can buy it for $8,500... or $9... or $9,500. But since it's under $10,000, Mr. Buyer says I would like to buy it. Mr. Middle Man secures the deal with Mr. Seller, then secures the deal with Mr. Buyer.

In this scenario, why are the seller and buyer considered "suckers," and the middle man a scammer? Mr. Seller got what he wanted. Mr. Buyer got what he wanted. Mr. Middle Man did not scam ANYONE.

[Restorer32]

There are people out there who simply don't want to be bothered with the aggravation of selling or buying a car and who are perfectly willing to let someone else do the dirty work for a percentage. Happens all the time and as West says, everyone ends up happy. There are very few "suckers" playing with higher end antique cars.