cool57 15 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) Could someone please decode these numbers for me? Thank you. Edited February 13, 2013 by cool57 Photos did not load. (see edit history) Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Cannon 175 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 In the top of the engine block, on the passenger side, you will find some letters and numbers (2 letters and 3 numbers). Please add a photo of them and I will decode them all for you. Link to post Share on other sites
RivNut 3,724 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 J7.... number on the block should match the VIN on your car. Another stamped number - mirror image of the VIN - shows the cubic inch displacement of the engine. JT = 401, JW = 425. The other letters are code numbers for a shift, or something that's never been discovered as of yet.The tag on the carburetor is to ID the carb for parts - can't tell by the numbers or the picture if the carb is a Carter AFB or an Rochester 4GC; it would also tell you if the carb is the appropriate carb for the engine.The Fisher body numbers are on the Riviera Owner's website along with an illustration showing what each stands for.Ed Link to post Share on other sites
sean1997 202 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) 7J10722157 = Series 4700 = RivieraJ = 1963 model year1 = built at Flint, MI072215 = sequence number unique to car, range for Flint was 001001 to 12839803B = March (03) 1963, second week (63-474763 = 1963 model year4747 = Fisher body style number 4 = Buick 7 = Series 4700 = Riviera 47 = 2-door hardtop sport coupeFB = body built at Flint, MI 25216 = body sequence number, starting at 1Trim 798 = Optional Saddle Leather and Vinyl with Bucket-Type Front Seatsoption code J2 = Power Seat - 4 Way Tilt AdjusterPaint CC = solid Arctic WhiteAccessory option codes (same as found on wholesale car order form):D = Prep for radio S7 = Remote Control Side View Mirror I6 = Soft-Ray Tinted Glass U7 = Power Windows3578S = Carter number3578 = AFB used on 425 with auto trans in 4600, 4700, 4800S denotes it was a complete assembly (SA would be first revision, SB would be second revision, etc.)1359307 is the Buick numberL2 = date codeL = November2 = 196215 = maybe day of month? Edited February 14, 2013 by sean1997 (see edit history) Link to post Share on other sites
cool57 15 Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 Wow! Thanks everyone....especially Sean. So if the carb is original, I firmly believe it is given the condition of this car, it has a 425! (I haven't looked yet for the pass. side engine numbers) Sean what is the CFM of the carb? Link to post Share on other sites
sean1997 202 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 You will need to find the engine production code as Jim stated to confirm that it is a 425. I don't know if Carter ever specified the cfm, but based on the venturi size it is about 625 cfm. Link to post Share on other sites
cool57 15 Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 Next question, and I have read lot of conflicting opinions, rebuild the Carter or install Edelbrock? Smooth acceleration ( it falls flat on it's face unless I feather it from a stop ) and fuel economy are what I am after, I am not a hotrodder-more of low cruiser type . Link to post Share on other sites
RivNut 3,724 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Rebuild the Carter! It's designed for your engine; Edlebrocks et al are universal. I can't say this about the '63 because the 425 is not part of the chassis manual, but in '64 the 401 and the 425 both have Carter AFB's but the 425 carb has different jet sizes than the 401 carb. There's got to be a reason. Edlebrock has not taken this into account but you probably should. Hesitation on acceleration is probably a weak accelerator pump. Pretty easy fix. Link to post Share on other sites
cool57 15 Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 Thank you! Link to post Share on other sites
sean1997 202 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Carter AFB info. Link to post Share on other sites
RivNut 3,724 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) I've always been curious about these charts. No matter who prints them there is something on them that make you scratch your head. In this instance it's carb #3579. In 1963, it's specified for model 4700 but you'll also notice that it's the carb for the S/T - standard transmission. Not in a Riviera! Edited February 14, 2013 by RivNut (see edit history) Link to post Share on other sites
sean1997 202 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) Yes, there are a couple of mistakes in the application chart. It shows only the 46/4700 with the 425, but the 425 was also available in the 4800 but not the 4400. Like you said, there was no standard trans available in the 4700, just the 44/4600. In 1959-1961 the 4700 was the Electra, no 4700 in 1962, and then 4700 was the Riviera in 1963. It also show that 3578S was the service carb for just about all of them, which I wouldn't think would be correct either. Edited February 14, 2013 by sean1997 (see edit history) Link to post Share on other sites
1965rivgs 672 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Sean, Excellent job on decoding the info, especially the carb tag info. Do you have any documentation of the availability of the 425 in the Electra models? My info shows the 425 engine was only available in the Riviera and Wildcat, thanks, Tom Mooney Link to post Share on other sites
cool57 15 Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 Once again...big thanks Sean! Link to post Share on other sites
sean1997 202 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Sean, Excellent job on decoding the info, especially the carb tag info. Do you have any documentation of the availability of the 425 in the Electra models? My info shows the 425 engine was only available in the Riviera and Wildcat, thanks, Tom MooneyI've never seen much from Buick that talked about the 425 in 1963. Maybe Pete Phillips would be a better person to ask (see the attached picture from the January 2013 issue of the Buick Bugle article titled "The 1963 Buick Riviera Celebrates its Golden Anniversary" by Pete, the second paragraph under the heading "Specifications" on page 30). Link to post Share on other sites
1965rivgs 672 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Hi Sean, The 425 was made available during the `63 model year on the Wildcat and Riviera. I have seen a wholesale car order form after that date which lists the 425 for both models but not for the Electra. I thought since you mentioned the Electra you may have a zone letter or dealer letter announcing the availability of the 425 on the Electra. At this point, unless there is some documentation, it would appear the 425 was not available on the `63 Electra. Thanks, Tom Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Milewski 54 Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 I know it has been beaten to death, but what are the numbers stamped on the engine about an inch from the "LT" - 271 mean, my other numbers are stamped and match up with the VIN - is it a production number or ? My riv is a 1965 custom sport, astro blue with blue cloth interior - 401 - thanks Link to post Share on other sites
RivNut 3,724 Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 It's been beaten to death because no one has figured it out (yet.) Link to post Share on other sites
Rivman 630 Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 4 hours ago, RivNut said: It's been beaten to death because no one has figured it out (yet.) Ed, I thought those numbers were a three digit production date? Pretty much like the date on the transmission tag? I do know that number matches the POP plate for my '65 GS, and it was a bit before the car was built, I thought it was the date the engine was manufactured? Link to post Share on other sites
RivNut 3,724 Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Rivman said: Ed, I thought those numbers were a three digit production date? Pretty much like the date on the transmission tag? I do know that number matches the POP plate for my '65 GS, and it was a bit before the car was built, I thought it was the date the engine was manufactured? You may have unlocked something. At least you're the first person I know of to come up with any kind of correlation. Link to post Share on other sites
sean1997 202 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 (edited) I've attached to pictures, one is from the 1963 Buick assembly manual and the other is a Dealer Service Information letter (see last paragraph). Both mention the three digit number. The highest number I've seen on an engine is 757. I've seen one POP with 770 and this post references one that is 778: http://forums.aaca.org/topic/107262-1963-riviera-decode-help/?tab=comments#comment-470361 Edited October 13, 2018 by sean1997 Added scan of entire page from assembly manual (see edit history) 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites
1965rivgs 672 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 The cat is out of the bag! Well, almost.....the key to putting this info to work is the actual schedule which the engine plant followed and when, as in calender day, they started production for the model year. Then, as in any scenario when one is date coding components to car assembly, there are chronological variances in production. For instance, I have two `65 Rivieras, same engine option, both matching number cars, the earlier car has a higher production numbered engine. Shxt happened... lol, Nice work Sean! Tom Mooney 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites
RivNut 3,724 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, sean1997 said: I've attached to pictures, one is from the 1963 Buick assembly manual and the other is a Dealer Service Information letter (see last paragraph). http://forums.aaca.org/topic/107262-1963-riviera-decode-help/?tab=comments#comment-470361 The Holy Grail- Where did you come up with a 1963 assembly manual? Does it have a section that specifically covers the Riviera? I want one! (I'd also take ones for 1964 and 1965) Ed Edited October 12, 2018 by RivNut (see edit history) Link to post Share on other sites
Rivman 630 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 3 hours ago, 1965rivgs said: The cat is out of the bag! Well, almost.....the key to putting this info to work is the actual schedule which the engine plant followed and when, as in calender day, they started production for the model year. Then, as in any scenario when one is date coding components to car assembly, there are chronological variances in production. For instance, I have two `65 Rivieras, same engine option, both matching number cars, the earlier car has a higher production numbered engine. Shxt happened... lol, Nice work Sean! Tom Mooney Tom, I know you don't like it when "secret" info gets out! Would they start with zero at the beginning of production, or, could the dates just be Julian dates? I thought if the numbers were above 365 they were started at the beginning of one year and continued into the next year? I'm sure there was a system but what might it have been? The one I have that I can verify has a 398 engine, a 453 Transmission, and a build date of April. Meaning the engine was built early February, and the trani was built late March, so, kind of just before the car was built. Is that not how it worked for the most part? Link to post Share on other sites
RivNut 3,724 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 (edited) Sean, Is there a date on the page where all of the engine production codes are listed? If so, I'm curious as to how far it precedes the actual production of the first known 425. Or was a 425 availabe in the Wildcat and/or Electra before it was availablle in the Riviera (Dec. 1962). Has anyone seen a JX engine - low compression 425 as shown on the list? In the September 1962 edition of Motor Trend, Tom McCahill tests a 1963 Riviera and in the article it states that the car tested is equipped with a 425. Has anyone ever figured that one out if that engine wasn't made public until December of that year? Edited October 12, 2018 by RivNut (see edit history) Link to post Share on other sites
RivNut 3,724 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 5 minutes ago, Rivman said: Tom, I know you don't like it when "secret" info gets out! Would they start with zero at the beginning of production, or, could the dates just be Julian dates? I thought if the numbers were above 365 they were started at the beginning of one year and continued into the next year? I'm sure there was a system but what might it have been? The one I have that I can verify has a 398 engine, a 453 Transmission, and a build date of April. Meaning the engine was built early February, and the trani was built late March, so, kind of just before the car was built. Is that not how it worked for the most part? In one of the letters tbat Sean posted, it states that "Note: This planned method should have bee started on August 13, 1962." Could this be the start date for the "1963 production year?" Link to post Share on other sites
1965rivgs 672 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Rivman said: Tom, I know you don't like it when "secret" info gets out! Would they start with zero at the beginning of production, or, could the dates just be Julian dates? I thought if the numbers were above 365 they were started at the beginning of one year and continued into the next year? I'm sure there was a system but what might it have been? The one I have that I can verify has a 398 engine, a 453 Transmission, and a build date of April. Meaning the engine was built early February, and the trani was built late March, so, kind of just before the car was built. Is that not how it worked for the most part? Randall, Not quite a secret as Ed mentioned it in post #3 above...and that was 5 years ago! I`m sure I mentioned it and the service bulletin on this forum which is most likely where Ed`s reference came from. Tom Edited October 13, 2018 by 1965rivgs (see edit history) Link to post Share on other sites
1965rivgs 672 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 7 hours ago, Rivman said: Tom, I know you don't like it when "secret" info gets out! Would they start with zero at the beginning of production, or, could the dates just be Julian dates? I thought if the numbers were above 365 they were started at the beginning of one year and continued into the next year? I'm sure there was a system but what might it have been? The one I have that I can verify has a 398 engine, a 453 Transmission, and a build date of April. Meaning the engine was built early February, and the trani was built late March, so, kind of just before the car was built. Is that not how it worked for the most part? Sean has wisely chosen production numbers which are OVER 730...lol, again, great research Sean! Tom Link to post Share on other sites
1965rivgs 672 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 8 hours ago, RivNut said: Sean, Is there a date on the page where all of the engine production codes are listed? If so, I'm curious as to how far it precedes the actual production of the first known 425. Or was a 425 availabe in the Wildcat and/or Electra before it was availablle in the Riviera (Dec. 1962). Has anyone seen a JX engine - low compression 425 as shown on the list? In the September 1962 edition of Motor Trend, Tom McCahill tests a 1963 Riviera and in the article it states that the car tested is equipped with a 425. Has anyone ever figured that one out if that engine wasn't made public until December of that year? Ed, The 425 was always intended for the Riviera but for some reason did not make the start of production. My `63 assembly manual is dated June 29th, 1962 and specifically mentions the 425 being intended for the Wildcat and Riviera models...but not the Electra models. The page Sean has displayed is different compared to my page so it is likely an addition to the original assembly manual. Typically when revisions were made the original page was to be removed and the new page substituted for the original. The page Sean has displayed is obviously after August 13, 1962 so is most likely an addition to the original manual. Very often when pages were substituted the employee would initial the page and date it, at least that is what I have found, so there may very well be an exact date for the revision. A low compression version of the 425 would be intended for export. The `63 Daily Car Reports should provide an answer. Unfortunately, I dont think I have that report...but I will check. Great question, I would guess production would be very, very low. Perhaps the McCahill test car was a pilot car and not a regular production model? Tom Link to post Share on other sites
RivNut 3,724 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Tom, Thanks for the info, it makes sense. Now, tell me where I can get a copy of an assembly manual. PLEASE ☺ Link to post Share on other sites
sean1997 202 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 The assembly manual I got from ebay, it is mostly y-body (Skylark). The dealer letter I found on-line. The date on the assembly manual page is August 14, 1963. I've updated the scan in my previous post with a scan of the entire page. Link to post Share on other sites
1965rivgs 672 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 18 hours ago, RivNut said: The Holy Grail- Where did you come up with a 1963 assembly manual? Does it have a section that specifically covers the Riviera? I want one! (I'd also take ones for 1964 and 1965) Ed Ed, There were copies of the assembly manuals distributed to the departments responsible for assembling the cars. There were very few copies distributed, I would guess less than 10 per point of assembly? Gordon Wolfgang may have more insight into this as he was involved with GM assembly, although later than this time period. One thing is for sure, they are not often seen. Generally, there were 2 versions of the assembly manuals, one for the small cars and another for the big cars. The Riviera was included in the big car version. If you have a `64 or `65 version we could work out a trade! I have only seen one `65 assembly manual and never a `64. I could have purchased it but the catch was I had to also purchase $15 K worth of car and parts to obtain it. I seriously considered it! Then I came to my senses....the divorce would have been even more expensive! Tom PS If anyone reading this has a `64 or `65 assembly manual they would like to sell I am interested! Link to post Share on other sites
RivNut 3,724 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Tom, Presently, I'd prefer the 64 over the 63, so even if I had one I wouldn't want to trade. ? Is there a possibility that using yours, a CD could be made. Something likeJim Cannon did with the service bulletins? I'd be a buyer. Probably lots of others out there too. Ed PS - I have '70 Skylark assembly manual in a 3-ring binder if you'd be interested. Link to post Share on other sites
1965rivgs 672 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 49 minutes ago, RivNut said: Tom, Presently, I'd prefer the 64 over the 63, so even if I had one I wouldn't want to trade. ? Is there a possibility that using yours, a CD could be made. Something likeJim Cannon did with the service bulletins? I'd be a buyer. Probably lots of others out there too. Ed PS - I have '70 Skylark assembly manual in a 3-ring binder if you'd be interested. Ed, Already available and much cheaper than I could ever get it done https://www.ebay.com/itm/1963-Buick-Skylark-and-Special-Factory-Assembly-Manual-Exploded-Views-of-Parts/162617319604?hash=item25dcbf60b4:g:00wAAOSwzx9Z1SkC&vxp=mtr Tom Link to post Share on other sites
msdminc 44 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Tom, much of the documentation the assembly plants used in the 50's and 60's was very similar to the documentation used in the 70's and early 80's (in the mid 80's computers were much more prevalent and much of the documentation changed), so I probably can identify what it is and how it was used in the plant. Then I could likely figure out how many copies there would be in the plant. We had lots of different kinds of assembly manuals, from operation descriptions(OD's) to time studies. They were all pretty restricted in distribution, and marked to identify the level of confidentiality. For obvious reasons GM didn't want them to fall into the hands of their competitors. There were lots of copies of most documents, especially if they could be produced on a Xerox machine (there weren't many copy machines in the 60's and 70's but you could get documents reproduced in the stationary stores department quite easily}. If you have a page or two of the document in question, send it to me or post it and I can probably identify it. I don't need much to go on. Rock On gord Link to post Share on other sites
msdminc 44 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Tom, I saw you posted a link to a Faxon copy of the document in question. Can you post a page from the guts of it? Like one of the detail pages. From the cover and index page, it looks more like something that would be a high level document to get assembly concepts on paper to allow the assembly plant manufacturing engineers and plant engineers design the actual assembly process and accommodations for the plant to make in order to actually build the model. Or it could also a derivative of plant documentation to be used actually after it left the assembly plant. Assembly plant documents were very detailed and this looks more like an overview, looking at the index. In the former case your guess at 10 copies per plant would be pretty good. Department Heads and the plant engineers working on change would get them, and they would be very tightly controlled, as they probably had new techniques and technologies discussed. Rock On gord Link to post Share on other sites
RivNut 3,724 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 35 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said: Ed, Already available and much cheaper than I could ever get it done https://www.ebay.com/itm/1963-Buick-Skylark-and-Special-Factory-Assembly-Manual-Exploded-Views-of-Parts/162617319604?hash=item25dcbf60b4:g:00wAAOSwzx9Z1SkC&vxp=mtr Tom Tom, I saw bunch of those last night when I looked, but they're all for the 4000, 4100, and 4300 series cars (Special/Skylark) Link to post Share on other sites
1965rivgs 672 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 On 10/13/2018 at 12:42 PM, msdminc said: Tom, I saw you posted a link to a Faxon copy of the document in question. Can you post a page from the guts of it? Like one of the detail pages. From the cover and index page, it looks more like something that would be a high level document to get assembly concepts on paper to allow the assembly plant manufacturing engineers and plant engineers design the actual assembly process and accommodations for the plant to make in order to actually build the model. Or it could also a derivative of plant documentation to be used actually after it left the assembly plant. Assembly plant documents were very detailed and this looks more like an overview, looking at the index. In the former case your guess at 10 copies per plant would be pretty good. Department Heads and the plant engineers working on change would get them, and they would be very tightly controlled, as they probably had new techniques and technologies discussed. Rock On gord Hi Gordon, The "assembly manuals" I have seen over the years appeared to be a guide for the persons involved to build the car. There are engineering drawings, just like those that appear in the shop manuals, alignment tool lists, etc...they are usually 3 or 4 inches thick. My point was that these manuals, no matter what their origin or specific purpose, are very unusual to find at swap meets, etc, and must have been produced in very limited quantities. Your posts have reaffirmed my assumption, thanks, Tom 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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