1928 Buick head gasket recommendation

[unimogjohn]

Hi all, I have a question for all you pre-war engine experts.

My 1928 Buick, model 29 Town Brougham, has an internal water leak. We took it out yesterday and then I checked the oil before putting it away, it was about two quarts overfilled with water infused oil, a nice chocolate milkshake color. So water is getting into the oil and the only point of entry is the head. So the gasket has failed.

My question is that I have a choice from Olson's Gaskets of a copper or composite gasket. Does anyone have a recommendation. The copper is more expensive, but really that is not the issue.

The car only has 44,000 miles. The engine starts easily and runs great, and burns no oil. This is the first issue with the engine since I bought way back in 1984. I think that the head has been off in the past.

Here are a couple of pics of the oil that I took out. So the engine has fresh, clean oil in it now.

Thanks for the help.

[Mark Shaw]

John,

Some prefer the copper bonded gaskets, but I use the new composite material gaskets (they have come a long way since they made the old copper gaskets).

Either material will work. I also suggest you check your freeze plugs for leaks and magnaflux your head and block before reassembly.

My $0.02

[michaelod]

John,

I have to agree with Mark on this one. I once had a Saturn in California that I bought new and babied. When it was 3 years old and just out of warranty, I discovered water in the oil. Assuming it was the result of a blown head gasket, I spent the better part of 2 days changing it out, only to discover after all my work that nothing had changed. Tore it down again and had the head tested and sure enough it was cracked. The lesson was that since one already has the head removed from the engine, it is well worth the extra effort to have it thoroughly inspected at that time.

Thanks,

[polishingpete]

Many years ago I thought my head gasket had gone on my '30-47 due to water in oil so replaced it at great expense, turned out to be a core plug corroded through behind the push rods allowing water into the oil system. A pretty low cost check before the work of a head removal?

Kind Regards

[unimogjohn]

Peter and all, Peter will check that before I open her up. I have concluded that copper is the way to go. Thanks everyone for the help.

[dibarlaw]

John:

Good luck. I was ready to send my head out for inspection and machine work. I dodged the bullet on replacing the head gasket by making shure all was sealed on the manifolds. But if mine goes south I do have a spare copper type. The pictures of the oil looks like what came out of my 25's transmission like a gray smoothie. I did clean and replace with"Steam Cylinder Oil".

Keep us posted:

Larry

[unimogjohn]

Larry and Peter, thanks and here is an update. Peter was right on.

I pulled the side covers off this morning. There were sealed with RTV sealant. I knew that the engine had been opened at some point in it life, but did not know how extensive. Now I know that it was extensive.

On the good side the side of the engine and all the components were free of any gunk, just a nice sheen of oil. But the bad is that I have a water leak somewhere as I can see puddles of water and chocolate mousse on the covers. Now for the bad. The two freeze plugs look good, but as you can see by the pictures there are several big patches of JB Weld or similar above both plugs. In addition there is more stuff below them just as the block starts a curvature to the the oil pan. So my guess is that the engine has had significant freeze damage to the block and the JBWeld was used to fill the cracks in an attempt to stop the water leaks. Since I bought the car in 1984, 29 years ago, the repairs have held up pretty well. I do not see any obvious cracks anywhere.

My plan is to fill the radiator with water and see if I can find the source of the leak and then figure out what the next step will be.

At least now I know that I do not have to pull the head.

I am also going to post this over to my other blog on the restoration forum for info. I will keep both threads updated.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Thanks for the update and good hunting.

Ben

[Patrick W. Brooks]

Have a NOS copper head gasket for a 1925 Buick, model 25, and do not know if it fits the 1928 as well. Am not able to check at this time so if you can figure it out the cost is $65.00 plus shipping. Let me know at brooker50158@hotmail.com Thanks, Patrick W. Brooks, BCA #3939

[Dave_B]

John,

I have a spare block if you need one.

Dave

[Brian_Heil]

Yikes. I was going to make a joke that us 1923 and earlier guys like you and me, not knowing anything about head gaskets but now you have bigger fish to fry.

Interesting you you went copper. I've only had head gasket experience on 50's/60's engines and modern engines. Always updgraded to the composite on the 50s/60s and the new engines already have them.

And the comment from Larry above about Steam Cylinder Oil. While this stuff is still available for our steam friends and required for them because it dissolves in steam and is consumed to lube their engines, this is all that was available 'back in the day' for our transmissions/axles but there is far superior lubes now available for our transmissions and axles. Steam cylinder oil is a lard base.

[unimogjohn]

All, OK, here is where I am at. Found the leak. It is a small cut on the underside of the number two piston shaft. You have to use a mirror to see it. Looks to be a quarter of an inch long and is very close to a previous repair. All the repairs with epoxy are fine, no leaks. So here are the pics.

Suggestions for repair? Going to ask my engine friends and see what they say. In the short term I plan on cleaning the cut and use epoxy to seal it.

[dibarlaw]

Brian:

Every thread I had consulted on oils and lubes seemed to field widly varring opinions and documentation to back them up. When I first bought my 1925 I asked on the fourm what modern equivalent lubes were best. The only responses were from other people who were looking for the the same thing. My son was able to source 5 gal cans from oil/gas well driller supply. The local Model A Ford guys were thrilled. They said the 600W style oil from their parts suppliers was no where as good in use as the steam cylinder oil. At the time if I had better answers I would have tried modern lube. Still a minor point since the clutch still sticks. Double-clutching on a down shift only works if the clutch will dissengage!

Still Learning:

Larry

[unimogjohn]

Hi all, will close this thread. I decided to take some time and clean the crack area, prep it and put some high strength epoxy as a temporary fix. Dave has kindly offered a replacement so am going to take up his offer. At some point down the road I will rebuild the engine now what I have a spare block. Now to get the block home. At least for once I do not have to go cross country, Dave is only two hours away.

[Guest Bob Nance]

Hi Brian, I have acquired a 1928 Buick Rodster and I have learned actually that there is NOT a real good replacement for the steam cylinder oil in the transmission , rear end and steering box. mainly because the newer oils are #1 thinner,, ie (90 Wt) so they will leak and the straight tooth gears need a thick oil to mesh,,

the steam cylinder oil is 400 - 600 weight, very thick so it doesn't leak as much and it doesn't react with brass bushing's like the new stuff. I bought 5 gallons from our local pertolium service folks,, a bit expensive but is what your supposed to run. I am looking at running non detergent oil in the 6 cyl engine also , , haven't figured out what the shocks take yet, just getting used to the BIG car,

[nzcarnerd]

I have no technical expertise on oils but I have noted over the years ongoing debates on what to use in old cars. I found this stuff for the transmisssions - http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/scripts/prodview.asp?idcat=140&idProduct=27 - although because the cars I have (ordinary 1920s Americans - Pontiac, Plymouth, Studebaker) don't do big mileages I can't comment one way or another as to how good it is. These guys do have distributors in the US. I am sure there must be other non EP oils available though.

[unimogjohn]

Bob, your transmission takes 600 wt oil. It is available in quart can from most Ford Model A vendors. The transmission takes about 3 Qts. The cost is about $10 per can. You can use modern 90 wt oil in the rear end. In the steering case everyone uses wheel bearing grease. Just pump it in from your grease gun.

[Dave_B]

I agree with John and use 600W from the Ford suppliers in the trans and 90/140W in the rear. In the steering box I cut the grease with the 600W oil until it is semi liquid and pourable. I feel like it gets between all the parts by gravity, but is still thick enough not to leak out.

My 2 cents.

Dave