6 Volt North East Key Coil

[Guest 1930]

I will assume you have not seen these yet? drwatson was kind enough to send me these scans.

[30DodgePanel]

First time I've seen it all, thanks to both of you for sharing.

So thats where the 1098X came in ... from Independant....interesting.

Now I see clearly where the confusion came in and how, just amazes me that there is a Briggs reference to the 1098 according to the guys making keys today, I mean, they should know better but I guess they don't have an interest in it as you said previously.

Wow, I'm so glad drwatson came forward with this. Can't wait to see what those catalogues that Don Stewart compiled years ago. Hopefully they duplicate this info but this literature is the thing I was looking for and definately confirms what the original key and code would have been. I just didn't want to trust that it was a round 42107 stock. So the North East artists rendition was correct.

Only one thing left for me at this point is to find some more North East lit that discusses the coils more in depth, other than that the mystery is solved as far as I'm concerned.

[Guest 1930]

I would still like to find some original 1929/1930 DB literature that shows the codes as Ims instead of JLs. I understand what and why was done but still like that definitive proof that can only be found in literature.

I also look forward to seeing some of those books you ordered or at least your opinion of the contents.

Not sure what your looking for as far as the coils but ask away and maybe someone can help

[30DodgePanel]

Not sure what your looking for as far as the coils but ask away and maybe someone can help

Just curious about a few things that are probably simple and obvious to some but not so obvious to me. Things like what are the main differences between the "lock and less lock" in the North East artwork in post #20 ?

Trying to understand if I have part # 5033130 or 5032002 and if mine should lock or not. Should the face plate show a lock position ? And as I asked previously did the word "Ignition" only show up on certain models, was there an "off" position on all of them like farrellg shows ? Just want to make sure it's correct when I refinish it.

[Guest 1930]

I am fairly certain that they all originally showed a face plate with a off position/ignition position. I am fairly certain it did not matter whether Plymouth, Dodge, Desoto or Chrysler assuming Chrysler used them. I haven ever seen a Chrysler car with using them but I know next to nothing about Chrysler cars.

Here are the N.E coils, I would need to look into the part numbers.

There are very few questions that are simple and obvious when it comes to an 80 year old car.

[30DodgePanel]

Wow, 5023640 is the number on that box... do you have the coil that came with that box ? Does it have a notch like the coil we discussed earlier that would have went to the 1930 Coleman Truck, 1931 Cunningham, 1930-31 Pickwick Stages and 1929-31 Sterling Engines according to the artist rendition ?

Funny, I had a 1930 Chrysler that would have been the same coil within the IM series as the 30 Dodge Truck according to the 29-41 Briggs Catalogue above, but I never paid much attention to it at the time, never noticed it.

Quite the museum you have going there, very cool.

[Guest 1930]

Wow, 5023640 is the number on that box... do you have the coil that came with that box ? Does it have a notch like the coil we discussed earlier that would have went to the 1930 Coleman Truck, 1931 Cunningham, 1930-31 Pickwick Stages and 1929-31 Sterling Engines according to the artist rendition ?

Funny, I had a 1930 Chrysler that would have been the same coil within the IM series as the 30 Dodge Truck according to the 29-41 Briggs Catalogue above, but I never paid much attention to it at the time, never noticed it.

Quite the museum you have going there, very cool.

Only the coils within the box so no notch on the ignition faceplate deal unless I am misunderstanding you.

BTW I received a response last night on the DD-6 DC-8 lock cylinders mentioned earlier and although I did not get the information for the ignition lock cylinder I did get this picture of a sidemount cylinder.

[30DodgePanel]

Yeah I was referring to that faceplate but the part # for the coil is fine. I was just curious to see if it offered a more definative answer for the similarities in the two key coils,,, but thats fine.

Thats good he sent that to you,

part #50200 is that how you understand it ? Man, this makes it SO much easier to follow now. THANK YOU DRWATSON!

Did you happen to note the 29, and 30 trucks used the IMs but the 31 used the DBs ? Would be nice to find out what the letters stood for specifically, but at least the correspondance is clear now.

[Guest 1930]

Yeah I was referring to that faceplate but the part # for the coil is fine. I was just curious to see if it offered a more definative answer for the similarities in the two key coils,,, but thats fine.

Thats good he sent that to you,

part #50200 is that how you understand it ? Man, this makes it SO much easier to follow now. THANK YOU DRWATSON!

Did you happen to note the 29, and 30 trucks used the IMs but the 31 used the DBs ? Would be nice to find out what the letters stood for specifically, but at least the correspondance is clear now.

I will have to check out/understand what you mean here........part #50200 is that how you understand it............no problem, I just need to re-group again and find that part number.

I have a few different topics I am working on so its hard to keep all of this new found data fresh in the mind.

It would be nice if you as the new key master would do a step by step synopsis including the relevant pages all within one single post ( so we are not having to jump back and forth between pages or posts ) of how you are thinking this all works out.

Take for example this new ignition DD-6 ignition lock cylinder photo I was given tonight that I was going to add to this post regardless and show me what you can do with it if you were a locksmith.

BTW I keep forgetting to mention as I am thinking you may not be aware but was reminded tonight again with a copy of the build card that matches this lock cylinder that the lock cylinder and the build card technically need to jive or rather it would be nice if they showed the same numbers.

Have fun!

[30DodgePanel]

Me a keymaster ? uh,,, no --- lol not even close...

just trying to sort out the correspondence and how the letters and numbers point to the correct part numbers for quick future referencing.

In order to get to the answer of key and cylinder JL804 I believe we need more information. The way I read the above charts it seems to be incomplete or not showing all year and model ranges of Dodge cars. If it is complete then my assumption is at this point that the JL804 is using cylinder part #50184 (again according to the above charts) which would mean it's a door handle cylinder and not an ignition cylinder, but again, I'm still trying to figure this out just the same.

Can you post a pic of the front of the key hole ? I'm not seeing where JL804 is even listed as an ignition cylinder, everything I'm seeing it shows "handle, tire or fenderwall" but no ignition indication for that JL number. As for the stock number of the key, again, the info is incomplete and a pic of the other side of the key and the key hole would be helpful in determining the correct stock for a locksmith.

I believe a step by step synopsis is in order for clarity and organization but the information needs to be more complete in my opinion. We have to many sources of references in to many different hands at this point, but I'm definately not a keymaster, I'm just an average joe trying to find answers. I'm sure if someone like a Don Stewart were here he could lay it out nice and orderly for all to understand, but I'm no Don Stewart.

We should pull all our resources together and organize it accordingly once the research is complete though, I think thats a great idea

Edit: as for part #50200 in post 168 I was referring to- that was a typo on my part, it should be Part #50201 referring to the above charts provided by drwatson showing a door handle cylinder with the cover that slides over the key hole.

Edited February 15, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

Update: Good news

I haven't received the books that I've ordered yet from the two different dealers but I was curious to know if the info that drwatson shared with us was indeed located in any of the books I'm purchasing. The one seller sent me an email in response to my question showing him a photo copy of the above chart and asking him if the "info was in there" and he replied by saying "that same information is in the B&S-02 catalogue".

Once I pull everything together and make more sense of it all and depending on how complete it is I'll try and summarize the best I can then we'll just go from there.

BTW: Wish me luck, tomorrow and Sunday we have a huge once a year bookfair that they hold here locally. Hopefully I can find some good nuggets...

My list of what I always look for is probably similar to most of the guys here on the forum:

Antique Auto Tools

Anything Dodge Brothers, GB, Fargo and Plymouth related

Anything pre 36 era Shop & Auto related

Auto keys, North East and United Motors are now on my list

Blacksmithing tools and techniques

Metal shrinking and lead loading

etc... you get the idea

[Guest 1930]

Me a keymaster ? uh,,, no --- lol not even close...

just trying to sort out the correspondence and how the letters and numbers point to the correct part numbers for quick future referencing.

In order to get to the answer of key and cylinder JL804 I believe we need more information. The way I read the above charts it seems to be incomplete or not showing all year and model ranges of Dodge cars. If it is complete then my assumption is at this point that the JL804 is using cylinder part #50184 (again according to the above charts) which would mean it's a door handle cylinder and not an ignition cylinder, but again, I'm still trying to figure this out just the same.

Can you post a pic of the front of the key hole ? I'm not seeing where JL804 is even listed as an ignition cylinder, everything I'm seeing it shows "handle, tire or fenderwall" but no ignition indication for that JL number. As for the stock number of the key, again, the info is incomplete and a pic of the other side of the key and the key hole would be helpful in determining the correct stock for a locksmith.

I believe a step by step synopsis is in order for clarity and organization but the information needs to be more complete in my opinion. We have to many sources of references in to many different hands at this point, but I'm definately not a keymaster, I'm just an average joe trying to find answers. I'm sure if someone like a Don Stewart were here he could lay it out nice and orderly for all to understand, but I'm no Don Stewart.

We should pull all our resources together and organize it accordingly once the research is complete though, I think thats a great idea

Edit: as for part #50200 in post 168 I was referring to- that was a typo on my part, it should be Part #50201 referring to the above charts provided by drwatson showing a door handle cylinder with the cover that slides over the key hole.

I cannot post a picture of the front or any part of the cylinder as it is not mine and I do not think the owner would appreciate me asking him for more pictures, sorry.

If he says it is ignition than it is just that, he is not the sort of person to just throw stuff out at least automotive related.

I do not know who Don Stewert is.

No wonder I could not find that number

I always try to remember that all of these later books are not all that accurate and complete. Look how many screw-ups are in the later printed MPB

[Guest 1930]

Update: Good news

I haven't received the books that I've ordered yet from the two different dealers but I was curious to know if the info that drwatson shared with us was indeed located in any of the books I'm purchasing. The one seller sent me an email in response to my question showing him a photo copy of the above chart and asking him if the "info was in there" and he replied by saying "that same information is in the B&S-02 catalogue".

Once I pull everything together and make more sense of it all and depending on how complete it is I'll try and summarize the best I can then we'll just go from there.

BTW: Wish me luck, tomorrow and Sunday we have a huge once a year bookfair that they hold here locally. Hopefully I can find some good nuggets...

My list of what I always look for is probably similar to most of the guys here on the forum:

Antique Auto Tools

Anything Dodge Brothers, GB, Fargo and Plymouth related

Anything pre 36 era Shop & Auto related

Auto keys, North East and United Motors are now on my list

Blacksmithing tools and techniques

Metal shrinking and lead loading

etc... you get the idea

Good luck and have fun

[30DodgePanel]

I cannot post a picture of the front or any part of the cylinder as it is not mine and I do not think the owner would appreciate me asking him for more pictures, sorry. Oh ok. It would help answer the questions you have but I don't blame you for not bugging him. I understand completely and agree it isn't right.

If he says it is ignition than it is just that, he is not the sort of person to just throw stuff out at least automotive related. Again, sorry I was just going off the limited information that is posted above, it's not that I distrust the owner but I'm just trying to make sense of it all myself and trying to distinguish the difference between "lock cylinder, ignition lock cylinder" etc... but because the information is imcomplete thats all I have to go off of. If you and the owner say it's the ignition then I fully trust that to be correct, I just have to find it in the documentation so I can understand it, thats all....

I do not know who Don Stewert is. The one who has applied years of research into auto keys, see the link I sent previously, the same place drwatson got his info I would imagine. The link you said you'd order from if it duplicated drwatsons info..

http://wclca.net/documents/don_stewart_books.pdf

No wonder I could not find that number Oh, the 50200 ? Yeah, Sorry for the typo

I always try to remember that all of these later books are not all that accurate and complete. Look how many screw-ups are in the later printed MPB Yes, but as you say "have fun with it" so to me figuring it all out IS the fun part. We all know the screw ups in the MPB and other locations as we find them but finding the correction and making note of it to help others out longterm is the fun part. For me anyway...

This is fun. I love learning and figuring out the answers and I hope everyone else does too. Now, where the heck is that mailman ???...

[30DodgePanel]

Ok, I just got the books from both dealers in the mail tonight. Jason, your gonna want some scans I can tell already but please be patient and I'll post them as soon as I can. It does duplicate what drwatson posted but there is some additional information in the B&S-01 catalogue that may help us all understand better.

I have some body work to do tonight so I'll try and sort this out later.

Edited February 16, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

I will have to check out/understand what you mean here........part #50200 is that how you understand it............no problem, I just need to re-group again and find that part number.

I have a few different topics I am working on so its hard to keep all of this new found data fresh in the mind.

It would be nice if you as the new key master would do a step by step synopsis including the relevant pages all within one single post ( so we are not having to jump back and forth between pages or posts ) of how you are thinking this all works out.

Take for example this new ignition DD-6 ignition lock cylinder photo I was given tonight that I was going to add to this post regardless and show me what you can do with it if you were a locksmith.

BTW I keep forgetting to mention as I am thinking you may not be aware but was reminded tonight again with a copy of the build card that matches this lock cylinder that the lock cylinder and the build card technically need to jive or rather it would be nice if they showed the same numbers.

Have fun!

Jason, one other thing I was just thinking about. Please help me out here with the pics in post 167 and 169 on page 7. So post 169 is the ignition key and post 167 is the door key correct ? Just want to clarify what I'm looking at and looking for.

Sorry for my ignorance but I have no idea what a DD-6 or DC-8 is since I've been studying trucks primarily but I'd love to figure out what your trying to answer in regards to those vehicles. Are they "Sedans, Coupes, Roadsters" ?..... I need to know because it may help in the way the books are worded from what I've seen so far. Post what you can and when I get more time I'll post a response.

[Guest 1930]

This is fun. I love learning and figuring out the answers and I hope everyone else does too. Now, where the heck is that mailman ???...

I sure am!

Quote.........Oh ok. It would help answer the questions you have but I don't blame you for not bugging him. I understand completely and agree it isn't right............

Its not that it isnt right in my opinion its just if I think its going to irritate someone than I just dont push my luck, that is all.

Quote...........Again, sorry I was just going off the limited information that is posted above, it's not that I distrust the owner but I'm just trying to make sense of it all myself and trying to distinguish the difference between "lock cylinder, ignition lock cylinder" etc... but because the information is imcomplete thats all I have to go off of. If you and the owner say it's the ignition then I fully trust that to be correct, I just have to find it in the documentation so I can understand it, thats all....

There is nothing to be sorry about, I was just clarifying that I am confident he knows what he said and meant it, that is all.

Quote............The one who has applied years of research into auto keys, see the link I sent previously, the same place drwatson got his info I would imagine. The link you said you'd order from if it duplicated drwatsons info..

Ok got it!

Yes, but as you say "have fun with it" so to me figuring it all out IS the fun part. We all know the screw ups in the MPB and other locations as we find them but finding the correction and making note of it to help others out longterm is the fun part. For me anyway...

I agree, you are doing a great job and it is very much appreciated by myself and I am sure others.

[Guest 1930]

Ok, I just got the books from both dealers in the mail tonight. Jason, your gonna want some scans I can tell already but please be patient and I'll post them as soon as I can. It does duplicate what drwatson posted but there is some additional information in the B&S-01 catalogue that may help us all understand better.

I have some body work to do tonight so I'll try and sort this out later.

Great, I look forward to what you see, maybe I will just order the books as well just to have the complete copies, werent these the relatively in-expensive books you just recently ordered, arent they reproductions, is the scan quality decent, can you re-post the link of which books you are specifically talking about.

Still look forward to what you are going to post anyway from them

Edited February 16, 2013 by 1930 (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

Jason, one other thing I was just thinking about. Please help me out here with the pics in post 167 and 169 on page 7. So post 169 is the ignition key and post 167 is the door key correct ? Just want to clarify what I'm looking at and looking for.

Sorry for my ignorance but I have no idea what a DD-6 or DC-8 is since I've been studying trucks primarily but I'd love to figure out what your trying to answer in regards to those vehicles. Are they "Sedans, Coupes, Roadsters" ?..... I need to know because it may help in the way the books are worded from what I've seen so far. Post what you can and when I get more time I'll post a response.

I will help you with anything you need help with, all you have to do is ask, give me a few minutes

[Guest 1930]

Post 167 I was given this information along with photo..........Here is one of the original 1930 side mount lock cylinders from my donor car...............I am assuming this was from a 1930 DC-8 sedan that he has, I am assuming/kinda know for sure I guess that at least with sidemount lock cylinder ( this is the special lock that keeps the wheel/tire from being stolen off your cars fender ) that the keys would all have the same style head since as far as I know the sidemount locks were interchangeable amongst all models.

I have sent him an e-mail to clarify this, I have asked for a photo of the key if he feels it is original, I have asked him at the least if his key head ( which we cannot see ) and my 1929/30 side mount lock cylinder ( which I posted a photo of in post # 122 upper left picture by itself ) key head matches.

[Guest 1930]

Post # 169 I was given this information..........There is a DD-6 Sedan in my shop for restoration and here is a couple of pictures of it's original key and the ignition switch cylinder............I guess this leaves no question on where it belonged.

[Guest 1930]

Quote........Sorry for my ignorance but I have no idea what a DD-6 or DC-8 is since I've been studying trucks primarily but I'd love to figure out what your trying to answer in regards to those vehicles. Are they "Sedans, Coupes, Roadsters" ?..... I need to know because it may help in the way the books are worded from what I've seen so far. Post what you can and when I get more time I'll post a response.

If you do not ask than you will not know. I will post some more info on this in the A.M

[Guest 1930]

What I was trying to answer is the same question you are, I am certain that the trucks and autos used the same ignition key combination, I am certain that the trucks did not use a differently shaped key head than the autos in other words at least for what I am assuming is our point of interest ( anything below the mid/late thirties.) that if someone were to order an ignition switch or maybe coil key combo that it would interchange between trucks and autos.

I am trying to also collect the auto key info because I know that the trucks are so much more difficult to find any info on.

Here is an early list of avail models for the 1930 DC-8 ( all the way at the bottom ) There is a possibility that there was a model added to the line-up or maybe a model removed but without more re-search this at least gives you an idea.

EDIT: In haste I made a mistake, this is not the DC-8 but the DG-8 instead, the model after the DC. No point in removing the pictures as maybe you would be interested in seein them anyway.

Also included a picture from the handbook whilst in my opinion it does not really bring out all the wonderful details of the car because of its chosen color there it is.

Edited February 16, 2013 by 1930 (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

Here are the DC-8 models offered and also a picture from the handbook.

Also here is a link to a discussion for a car for sale......http://forums.aaca.org/f143/sale-very-rare-1930-dodge-brothers-345011.html

[Guest 1930]

Here is your DD-6 and I have showed 1 of the model pages as well

[30DodgePanel]

Post 167 I was given this information along with photo..........Here is one of the original 1930 side mount lock cylinders from my donor car...............I am assuming this was from a 1930 DC-8 sedan that he has, I am assuming/kinda know for sure I guess that at least with sidemount lock cylinder ( this is the special lock that keeps the wheel/tire from being stolen off your cars fender ) that the keys would all have the same style head since as far as I know the sidemount locks were interchangeable amongst all models.

I have sent him an e-mail to clarify this, I have asked for a photo of the key if he feels it is original, I have asked him at the least if his key head ( which we cannot see ) and my 1929/30 side mount lock cylinder ( which I posted a photo of in post # 122 upper left picture by itself ) key head matches.

I'm gonna try and touch on a few things the best I can. I will have to jump around but I'll try and explain the best I know how. This is gonna take some time to work on though.

First off, In regards to the statement in bold above I don't believe you'll find the keys to be the same. The reason I say that is the cylinders are different and the years maybe enough to change things. Yours is for a 29/30 tire mount or fenderwall and the one in post 167 is for a 1930 DC-8. I understand he is saying "sidemount" but we need to be more clear about this in order to get to the answers we're trying to find or we will tend to go in circles, so again, I'm just going based off of the information I have at my disposal and we'll work it out from here but according to the photo he sent you when you compare it to the part #s in the catalogue it shows it to be a door handle cylinder. I'm not saying anyone is wrong , I'm saying this is where we need to figure out what the discrepencies are. The key and cylinder in post 169 will have to wait for the time being but I'll go back to that later.

So, for analysis sake, I'm going to post info and photos of the documentation we have to work with and see if it proves out to be false or true. For instance, your Part # for the 29/30 fenderwall or tiremount shows it as being #50200 , and for the 30 DC-8 the part # is 50201 with cover according to the B&S 28-39 Auto lock and key catalogue.

There is much to talk about here and solve so lets work thru it the best we can, this is just a restarting point of sorts if you don't mind so we can regroup. I know your busy with other things so no need to respond until you get time.

I do have a question about your key in the 2nd photo below:

Can you tell me what brand of key your tire mount key is ? I cannot see the back side of it. I believe it to be a Briggs and Stratton.

Is it a B&S and does it by chance have a 1, 2 or a 5 stamped on the reverse side ? I believe you will find it to show a 1 stamp with the name Briggs and Stratton on the reverse side. Sorry but we need to work through this phase first. It will make sense as we move forward but I think that key is a "groove 1" key.

I'll explain with pics as we go along but in short, I'll need to post many photos with descriptions that will explain on each page why I'm posting, but lets start with your tire key first and work forward.

Let me say also that I spoke to the gentleman whom I bought the books from, great guy, his name is Richard and is the one reprinting copies of Don Stewarts work.

(heres the link again BTW http://wclca.net/documents/don_stewart_books.pdf )

Richard informed me that Don Stewart passed away several years back and alot of his work was auctioned off among other things. Many have tried to continue his work but some of the car guys have also passed away so he's trying to put me in contact with other auto key guys who may be able to delve into the IM and JL reasoning and a more precise explanation of the Alphabetical auto key code system. I do have some material I need to scan that will explain the Alphabetic system to some degree but not fully, please be patient and I'll try and pull things together from this point forward, but it will be far from complete so we are still working under a cloud of assumptions in some areas.

Notice the obvious differences in these 2 cylinders even though they are both JL keys and cylinders.

His - Part #50201 (see middle photo on the left side)

yours- Part #50200 *** ALSO NOTE if your key is for a 29/30 it MAY be shaped different***

I'll get some scans going and hope it makes sense.

Edited February 17, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

Some scans of what we have to go off of. This is from the B&S 1 catalogue. 1 is from Jan 1933. After I scan these I'll have to get busy on some projects.

EDIT:

Adding Instruction pages 2 and 6 for B&S 01 Catalogue dated Jan 1933

Edited February 17, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

From B&S 2 catalogue 1928-1939 with supplement of 38/39. Again, these are only reprints but the quality is acceptable.

Jason,

on these scans show me which one you believe the DC-8 to be and which one you believe to be the DD-6 when you get around to it. This is just discussion and I'm only trying to work through a question I have of why the "JL"s are not showing an ignition key. That scan you provided early on of the JLs and DBs in that book you have keeps bringing me back to what the purpose of the part number 76575 was and I believe once we answer that it will open a whole other world of answers.

Edited February 17, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

If anyone needs an explanation of the instructions and how to put this info to use let me know. Pretty self explanatory for the most part but don't be afraid to ask for the instructions.

[Guest 1930]

I am going to work on this today Dave, thanks for the scans and let me see if I can come up with anything new and exciting, I can comment better on what you mentioned above hopefully later.

1933 catalog, very nice though, that is a good one to have for sure

[Guest 1930]

If anyone needs an explanation of the instructions and how to put this info to use let me know. Pretty self explanatory for the most part but don't be afraid to ask for the instructions.

Heck yes, by all means

[Guest 1930]

Looks like I should not have assumed that the prefix DB on the key was just a Dodge thing, as you can see that series of keys was used on other makes as well, very interesting!

[Guest 1930]

Dave, just for your records the info Drwatson submitted above ............For your info, this came from Briggs + Stratton cat. #AS 1963.

[30DodgePanel]

Dave, just for your records the info Drwatson submitted above ............For your info, this came from Briggs + Stratton cat. #AS 1963.

Thats interesting the 28-39 reprint I have says #AS-1080. Not sure what any of that means, I wonder if drwatson would ? I'll also contact Richard again to see if he can answer it because if there is more literature I need then I will order more.

Gotta get going this morning so I'll get the instructions up later but yesterday the wife had back problems and we got to the book fair late (A 2 HOUR WAITING LINE JUST TO GET IN) so I'm gonna be one of the first ones this morning. Today everything is half price. Yesterday I did pick up some other books on truck history but nothing specific to our search as of yet.

[Guest 1930]

Thats interesting the 28-39 reprint I have says #AS-1080. Not sure what any of that means, I wonder if drwatson would ? I'll also contact Richard again to see if he can answer it because if there is more literature I need then I will order more.

Gotta get going this morning so I'll get the instructions up later but yesterday the wife had back problems and we got to the book fair late (A 2 HOUR WAITING LINE JUST TO GET IN) so I'm gonna be one of the first ones this morning. Today everything is half price. Yesterday I did pick up some other books on truck history but nothing specific to our search as of yet.

Every little bit of info helps, I had assumed that AS 1963 was referring to a year of publication, evidently not.

I will ask Drwatson if he has any speculation on that.

Edited February 17, 2013 by 1930 (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

Got Vol 3 today.

Just wanted to point out the similarities in the JLs and IMs I've found.

Notice they both use the same blanks. 42107 and 9119. Also, notice the JL 750-1000 series is listed in Vol 2 :mad:

Heres the JL page if it helps. Copyright date 1977 lol. You nailed it

[ATTACH=CONFIG]176619[/ATTACH]

Dave, would you mind posting Volume 1 section 2 page 29. I do not think you have up too this point but will double verify this.

[Guest 1930]

Dave, you have an excellent idea above of re-grouping and starting over again but let me add what I can today so we can be just a little bit more confused and then I will try and work off of your post 186 above.

I am starting on page 4 of this topic post # 77, that is where we seem to be gathering some information.

1- I am pretty sure you have already mentioned this but I cannot find the post, have you noticed though that key blank # 42107 is showing a round key head, that is strange, I do not believe there is any possibility that it is round at this point or I would rather say that it was round in 1929/1930.

I have an un-molested key/coil combo and it shows the hex key, the DD-6 key from the photo David sent me was an original key in his opinion, he has been studying D.B cars for more than 30 years and he would not say the key was original unless he was sure it was.

I have sent out some e-mail requests to other early Dodge owners asking them for some info concerning the keys they posses.

Maybe I am doing just what you suggested here but just to clarify and at the very least for my own benefit of keeping myself in check lets take your Coupe coil of IM 58, this cylinder would contain tumblers # 1,3,4,1,2 and the key would have to be cut the negative shape of these tumblers, as far as I can see the only question that remains here is why are we seeing 42017 as a round key head according to the submitted B.S info you have given and also why ..............Ok very interesting, look at my post # 117 it lists all of those vehicles as using series JL 750 - JL 999, the page you posted on #123 shows a JL 750 - 1000 and a section reference of Yale Wafer.

You never did get a volume 2 did you?

[Guest 1930]

Ok I got it I think, we have both been under the assumption that 42017 was the only stock number being used for these keys which as you know showed groove 1 round head as a key blank, but if you look into the Alphabetical and Numerical listing of key codes you will see IM 000-IM 249 will use a groove number of either 1 or 14 and if you look at the B.S groove chart you will see that groove 14 could have been either a round head with a new/different/unseen up until this point part # of 75101 or the hex-head with a new/different/unseen up until this point of 75102.

Same information pertains to IM 500 thru IM 749

Same information pertains to JL 500-749

Same information pertains to JL 750-999

Not that this is perfectly/crystal clear to me yet but I was wondering how since these IM#s and JL#s were used with so many different manufacturers that they would have been able to have or carry so many different possible cylinder combinations and understand which keys would identify with which vehicle.

I hope this makes sense, get back with me!

I am going to try and reference part # 75102 in anything I have D.B

Edit: interesting that they show a groove # 14 on the key within the B.S groove chart and yet I do not have this number or any # on my own key, I will look into this as well.

Edited February 17, 2013 by 1930 (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

Ok I got it I think, we have both been under the assumption that 42017 was the only stock number being used for these keys which as you know showed groove 1 round head as a key blank, but if you look into the Alphabetical and Numerical listing of key codes you will see IM 000-IM 249 will use a groove number of either 1 or 14 and if you look at the B.S groove chart you will see that groove 14 could have been either a round head with a new/different/unseen up until this point part # of 75101 or the hex-head with a new/different/unseen up until this point of 75102.

Same information pertains to IM 500 thru IM 749

Same information pertains to JL 500-749

Same information pertains toJL 750-999

Not that this is perfectly/crystal clear to me yet but I was wondering how since these IM#s and JL#s were used with so many different manufacturers that they would have been able to have or carry so many different possible cylinder combinations and understand which keys would identify with which vehicle.

I hope this makes sense, get back with me!

[Guest 1930]

Drwatson got right back with me as far as dating his reference catalog. This was my question........ I am wondering if you have any knowledge of the reference #AS 1963 found on your catalog/book might mean?

I am sure that there would be an indication of date of publication found within that code but I do not think now ( as I had previously ) that it was 1963.

Dodge Brothers had there own cataloging reference numbering system which I am un-able to decipher thus far as well.

This was his response..........

I'd date the catalog #AS 1963 to be circa 1941.

The headliner for #AS 1963 B+S catalog specifies "1929 - 1941 B+S keys and parts". Therein, a price list specifies "prices as of Nov. 1940". All this makes me suspect "1963" does not refer to a publish date. Also, there's no clue the catalog is repro or reprint. BTW, I have a second B+S catalog for 1940 - 1952. It's catalog # is AS-2065.....................

I would agree that considering that is the date of price list than that would be the date of the material.

Edited February 17, 2013 by 1930 (see edit history)