6 Volt North East Key Coil

[Guest 1930]

Here is number 3 if you think it will help, cost is too high for me

Amazon.com: Reed Locksmith Publishing General Code Book Vol. 3 Around the World: Everything Else

[Guest 1930]

So did you get the # 3 that I have pointed out to you? You mentioned .............In his opinion if we are interested in answering questions in regards to car and truck keys the only other volume needed would be Volume 3 which he does not have.............and clearly you have an interest so what happened?

I will assume someone did because it is no longer avail.

[30DodgePanel]

Yes Vol 3 is on the way as well.

He's selling me Vol 1 because he padlocks and trunks and when he ordered it he didn't realize it was for cars and truck. He has nothing to do with cars and the book just sits on his shelf.

Contacted the key men 2 days ago and still haven't heard back from them. :confused:

[30DodgePanel]

Well... one of the books arrived today. Not at all what I anticipated it would be. Good for a locksmith and has some valuable information in there but I'll need to reference alot more than the Reed General Code books to get a better understanding. It's mainly to tell a locksmith how deep to make each cut with brief descriptions of which vehicles it covers.

On a better note I did find this on the web and this one page tells us quite a bit but still leads to more questions (for me at least) in regards to the Clums and the Model T codes and the designs of those keys. But, not to get off track, at least I found out what I was initially going for.

Heres a page showing the abbreviations and some of the meanings you may have came across.

This is just a small sample of the style of keys

***NOTE*** These photos are NOT in the Reed General Code books so don't waste your money on them.

Edited February 1, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

Do you have a page that shows either any Dodge or Graham specific info? Early, say prior to 1933 or so.

[30DodgePanel]

NOPE, wish I could say yes but nada

EDIT: If I come across some I'll let you know but I highly doubt it's in there.

EDIT #2: That's what I was hoping to find more of by the way. Pretty disappointed to say the least, but at least I know where to turn now.

Edited February 1, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

I would say this is more like what we are really looking for :

VINTAGE LOCKSMITH AUTOMOBILE KEY CODES BOOK

[Guest 1930]

I would say this is more like what we are really looking for :

VINTAGE LOCKSMITH AUTOMOBILE KEY CODES BOOK

[ATTACH=CONFIG]175620[/ATTACH]

I would like to have that book for sure. How about the # 3 did you get that one yet? I am assuming it was the #1 you received.

[30DodgePanel]

I would like to have that book for sure. How about the # 3 did you get that one yet? I am assuming it was the #1 you received.

Vol 1 only, 3 hasn't arrived yet. Won't make much of a difference though.

I feel the key guy I dealt with really lead me astray on the Reeds books but live and learn. He did answer some valuable questions but I was really anticipating more info in regards to years of makes of vehicles and naming precisely what Vehicles the codes fit or showing the year ranges that they were for..

But he did warn me it was only for the Locksmith telling them how to make the cuts so I'm not complaining but he did tell me there were dates and said "oh yeah, Dodge Brothers is in here" ... it's not. Chrysler, DeSoto, Plymouth are all mentioned but no mention of Dodge Brothers and no dates so I'm dissappointed but the search continues.

The key men got back to me and said they could make a key but it was round.

Still trying to see if I can resolve that issue because the stock is 42107 according to the Reeds General Code book Vol 1 a hex shaped key from all indications but he told me tonight " I have no way to look up #42107 and no I don't accept keys being shipped to me to be made up, I make keys from what I have, I don't accept anyone shipping in a key in order for me to make it".

So even if I find the right stock he's saying he won't do the job. Guess it's to much to ask to get it right lol...

Edited February 2, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

I sure wish I had some better literature in my hands....

Just trying to fit all the correct answers together from many different sources in many different hands. So far everyone is willing to help and it's answering some of the questions but more work needs to be done.

Heres where we are:

According to the Reeds General Code book the key for IM 058 (the good Coupe coil) and IM 056 (the seized truck coil) would have been the same key design according to stock number 42107.

Heres the catch, we have two conflicting pieces of information however:

The North East ad shows a octal shaped key which we've always assumed was a truck key. But George at the key men is now telling me according to a Briggs and Stratton Catalog dated 1932 that he found shows the stock number of 42107 as being a round key.

Key Men - Catalog #: 1098X-OEM2

The Octal shaped key stock number is 52253

Key Men - Catalog #: H1098L-OEM

One other note,

I assumed the stock used originally on trucks would have been brass and not nickel. Does anyone show anything that has the TYPE of stock used, was it brass or nickel originally ?

There has to be someone out there who has an original key for both the car and truck that can share some thoughts.

Thanks for all the help

Edited February 2, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

Jason,

was hoping you could clarify something for me?

In post #27 the book your showing, it mentions the DA as being a JL series code. But yet both of the DA coil's I have are both IM series, one from a car, and one from a truck. Also it seems as it's saying an entirely different stock number for the JL series, am I reading that correctly ?

What am I missing ?

The answer is here somewhere... that book is important to the answer, I still believe that. Is there anything else in there that would shed some light on the IM's, other series numbers, or Stock numbers ? Maybe a North East or Delco Remy section perhaps ?

Edited February 2, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

Theres also some conflicting information in post #84.

The book mentioned is "Builders Hardware" (probably a pre 36 book) showing two different keys for the Dodge key stock (notice it doesn't say Dodge Brothers because everything would have been listed under Chrysler by this point).

Notice the stock numbers to the IM series IM 000-249

1098DB in the 2nd photo is a Dodge car key

and

1098X in the 1st photo says the stock for Chrysler IM 000-249

but 1098X in the 2nd photo is listed as a Ford key. This is the same key that the key men are saying would be original for the 42107stock number. :confused:

Both are different keys with a similar shape. So which one would have been original ? I'm assuming it's telling us that either key would work but doesn't say which key style would have been original.

Also in the second photo is H1122T showing a Chrysler-DeSoto ILCO Octal shaped key. Note these are all designated for "CAR"

Edited February 2, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[farrellg]

I don't believe either of the keys I received with my trucks were original. When in the shop today, I will take some photos. They were both extremely worn. One worked hard, the other only worked 1 out of 5 times. This seems to happen when keys are made from old keys and not the code. New coded keys worked great.

[Guest 1930]

I sure wish I had some better literature in my hands....

Just trying to fit all the correct answers together from many different sources in many different hands. So far everyone is willing to help and it's answering some of the questions but more work needs to be done.

Heres where we are:

According to the Reeds General Code book the key for IM 058 (the good Coupe coil) and IM 056 (the seized truck coil) would have been the same key design according to stock number 42107.

Heres the catch, we have two conflicting pieces of information however:

The North East ad shows a octal shaped key which we've always assumed was a truck key. But George at the key men is now telling me according to a Briggs and Stratton Catalog dated 1932 that he found shows the stock number of 42107 as being a round key.

Key Men - Catalog #: 1098X-OEM2

The Octal shaped key stock number is 52253

Key Men - Catalog #: H1098L-OEM

One other note,

I assumed the stock used originally on trucks would have been brass and not nickel. Does anyone show anything that has the TYPE of stock used, was it brass or nickel originally ?

There has to be someone out there who has an original key for both the car and truck that can share some thoughts.

Thanks for all the help

I can maybe help further, will you please post the page with this info............According to the Reeds General Code book the key for IM 058 (the good Coupe coil) and IM 056 (the seized truck coil) would have been the same key design according to stock number 42107....................I simply do not see it within any of your past posts, maybe I am missing it somehow.

[30DodgePanel]

I can maybe help further, will you please post the page with this info............According to the Reeds General Code book the key for IM 058 (the good Coupe coil) and IM 056 (the seized truck coil) would have been the same key design according to stock number 42107..

[Guest 1930]

Very interesting and thanks for sharing, I will post some more info ( not that it will help possibly ) a bit later or tomm. morning. I have something else I need to take care of right now.

I need time to collect my thoughts anyway.

[30DodgePanel]

After communicating with George at the key men for the past few couple of days and explaining to him what our goal is in trying to uncover these things here is his last comment:

"It's my view that it's not possible to resolve the issue unless you find

an original stamped key. There is no literature that would resolve the

issue unless it was Dodges orders for the keys".

I did ask him if he thought the United Motors Automotive confidential key code book would reveal anything as well pryor to his comment.

Just doesn't make any sense that a guy can spend $20-30,000 on a restoration bringing something back to it's original form but have a $10 key be the only thing that isn't original or is questionable at the very least.

[30DodgePanel]

Just a brief update from George at the key men.

His latest reply in regards to my last question in regards to the United Motors Confidential Auto Key Codes . My question was "That wouldn't help if we were to locate one somewhere ? It says shows lock codes for many U.S. autos from 1924 to 1936"

His response was :

"I have one of these. All it does is show the codes and the cuts.and

their equivalent key, which doesn't even look like an original key.

United Motors was a brand cooked up by the GM parts department to allow

them to sell replacement keys for other brands as well as their own".

Edited February 3, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

Working on this, can you post volume one, section 2 page 27, I understand that most likely you will have looked at this and it is no help but another set of eyes might be able to pick out something that does help.

Edited February 3, 2013 by 1930 (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]176209[/ATTACH]

The entire page of this may help as well, I cannot read what is furthest right, maybe there is something there that will coincide with something I can remember hearing or seeing.

EDIT: Yes I think I may be onto something here, am working on it now, please post the other requested material above, thanks

EDIT #2 : Partial mystery solved gotta luv it

Edited February 3, 2013 by 1930 (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

If you think it will help

IM Listing

Vol 1 Sec 2 Page 27

Again, my key code is IM 058 2nd column in under the 050 cut instructions are 13412

Edited February 3, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

I am understanding how these books worked and how the key guys cut these keys, just for my own records can you also post page 28. I know you do not have it but I would like to see that entry within volume two as well.

Thanks for the copies, am working on disclosing what I have found still and still looking, will do so though before the end of the day.

[farrellg]

Here are a couple picture of my old and new keys.

[farrellg]

Here is another.

[30DodgePanel]

just for my own records can you also post page 28. I know you do not have it but I would like to see that entry within volume two as well.

.

I don't have Vol 2 but I think your referring to Vol 1 Sec 2 Page 28

Here is page 28 IM's 500-749

[Guest 1930]

Vol 1 only, 3 hasn't arrived yet. Won't make much of a difference though.

I feel the key guy I dealt with really lead me astray on the Reeds books but live and learn. He did answer some valuable questions but I was really anticipating more info in regards to years of makes of vehicles and naming precisely what Vehicles the codes fit or showing the year ranges that they were for..

But he did warn me it was only for the Locksmith telling them how to make the cuts so I'm not complaining but he did tell me there were dates and said "oh yeah, Dodge Brothers is in here" ... it's not. Chrysler, DeSoto, Plymouth are all mentioned but no mention of Dodge Brothers and no dates so I'm dissappointed but the search continues.

The key men got back to me and said they could make a key but it was round.

Still trying to see if I can resolve that issue because the stock is 42107 according to the Reeds General Code book Vol 1 a hex shaped key from all indications but he told me tonight " I have no way to look up #42107 and no I don't accept keys being shipped to me to be made up, I make keys from what I have, I don't accept anyone shipping in a key in order for me to make it".

So even if I find the right stock he's saying he won't do the job. Guess it's to much to ask to get it right lol...

I am going to try and address each post individually so maybe less confusion starting with this one.

If you go to the keymans site ( good luck accessing ) and do a search for 42107 you will see it is a round key blank, this Reed key book I can guess is not dated 1920,1930 prob. not even as early as 40,50s or 60s.

I do not think that the publisher had any clue whatsoever of the shape of the original key head and even more sure they did not care, they were just trying to make money helping people sell and cut keys. General information in other words, interesting yes but take everything with a grain of salt.

BTW I am pretty sure that most keymen dont care either what the head was originally supposed to look like and maybe consider it a waste of time to spend any great amount of time on it if that explains some of the feedback you are getting.

Go to keymans site and using the search query type Dodge, scroll down 42 headings.......... [TABLE=align: center]

<tbody>[TR]

[TD=bgcolor: #FFFFFF]<center></center>[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #FFFFFF]<center>Key blank</center>[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #FFFFFF]<center>H1098DB-OEM</center>[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #FFFFFF]Original (OEM) Briggs & Stratton for: Willys/Jeep 1947-1975 except 1945. Cadillac 1927-39. Buda Motors 1931-34. Buick 1926-34. Chevrolet 1927-28. Chrysler 1926-31. Dayton. Diamond T 1942. Dodge 1925-31. Ford 1930-31. Graham 1927-30. International 1931-33, 1937-49. La Salle 1927-31, Stutz.[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #FFFFFF]<center>20</center>[/TD]

[TD=bgcolor: #FFFFFF]<center>Yes</center>[/TD]

[/TR]

</tbody>[/TABLE]

theres a variation of your key!

[Guest 1930]

I sure wish I had some better literature in my hands....

Just trying to fit all the correct answers together from many different sources in many different hands. So far everyone is willing to help and it's answering some of the questions but more work needs to be done.

Heres where we are:

According to the Reeds General Code book the key for IM 058 (the good Coupe coil) and IM 056 (the seized truck coil) would have been the same key design according to stock number 42107. Again I believe that 42017 is a good number for a replacement key at this point, nothing more.

Heres the catch, we have two conflicting pieces of information however:

The North East ad shows a octal shaped key which we've always assumed was a truck key. Not only truck but auto as well. The North East add again was an artists rendering, just remember to not put too much faith in those, look for other clues. But George at the key men is now telling me according to a Briggs and Stratton Catalog dated 1932 Yes dated 1932, you are starting to become aware of the errors within these books that only a few years time has let take place.....BTW I would like to get a copy of this, just for my own records/curiosity sake, I know chances are you will not be able to get a copy but its worth a shot. that he found shows the stock number of 42107 as being a round key. Means zilch

Key Men - Catalog #: 1098X-OEM2

The Octal shaped key stock number is 52253

Key Men - Catalog #: H1098L-OEM

One other note,

I assumed the stock used originally on trucks would have been brass and not nickel. Does anyone show anything that has the TYPE of stock used, was it brass or nickel originally ?

There has to be someone out there who has an original key for both the car and truck that can share some thoughts.

Thanks for all the help

1

[30DodgePanel]

Here is another.

Thanks George, that makes me wonder why the key men told me the stock was round for my IM Code ? Interesting and I'm encouraged to see yours are Octal shaped. I still believe the North East ad is correct and that our keys were Octal shaped even though it was only an artist's rendition. I just don't believe they would have let such significant information be released at such a critical time in automobile history. I mean, if that was the case then thousands of the coil parts for these vehicles would have been falsely represented and I'm sure would have damaged their reputation along with the bottom line if that was true. But if it was a mistake I would think we would be able to find the corrected information as well.

George,

your face plate tells me something I never knew before. Never seen the word "ON" in all the ignition coils I've studied. Good to know.

Is there anything written on the top of the face plate like the word "OFF" ? I only found the word "Ignition" on the bottom of both of mine.

Thanks again for taking the time to post the information. It helps alot !

EDIT:

Sorry Jason I didn't realize you were posting. Disregard some of my line of questioning now that I've read your last 2 posts...

Edited February 3, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

Jason,

was hoping you could clarify something for me?

In post #27 the book your showing, it mentions the DA as being a JL series code. I do not know if you realize it or not but this book is only showing auto, no truck, it is only showing series of auto key variations and small description of keys used But yet both of the DA coil's I have are both IM series, one from a car, and one from a truck. WE need to / am still working on defining the relationship between IM and JL, I have a feeling that it is two different organizations ( D.B and U.M ) way of expressing their own search characteristics but that essentially J.L and I.M are actually defining the same broad term or usage. Also it seems as it's saying an entirely different stock number for the JL series, am I reading that correctly ? Again strictly auto

What am I missing ?

The answer is here somewhere... that book is important to the answer, I still believe that. Is there anything else in there that would shed some light on the IM's, other series numbers, or Stock numbers ? Maybe a North East or Delco Remy section perhaps ?

1

[30DodgePanel]

BTW I am pretty sure that most keymen dont care either what the head was originally supposed to look like and maybe consider it a waste of time to spend any great amount of time on it if that explains some of the feedback you are getting.

Go to keymans site and using the search query type Dodge, scroll down 42 headings..........theres a variation of your key!

Yeah I was looking at that key last night , making note of a couple of the hex shaped ones. And yes I'm sure all key guys wouldn't want to get bogged down by redundant questioning of something that seems meaningless to them but I'm reminding them this is truely a historical piece of information we're trying to answer and they are usually pretty willing. I don't want to take up to much of anyones time but I see these answers as critical for a number of reasons. You of all people understand that.

EDIT: and I agree and understand fully what your telling us in this post. Taken with a grain of salt

Thanks again for the help

Edited February 3, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

Theres also some conflicting information in post #84.

The book mentioned is "Builders Hardware" (probably a pre 36 book) showing two different keys for the Dodge key stock (notice it doesn't say Dodge Brothers because everything would have been listed under Chrysler by this point).

Notice the stock numbers to the IM series IM 000-249

1098DB in the 2nd photo is a Dodge car key

and

1098X in the 1st photo says the stock for Chrysler IM 000-249

but 1098X in the 2nd photo is listed as a Ford key. This is the same key that the key men are saying would be original for the 42107stock number. :confused:

Both are different keys with a similar shape. So which one would have been original ? I'm assuming it's telling us that either key would work but doesn't say which key style would have been original.

Also in the second photo is H1122T showing a Chrysler-DeSoto ILCO Octal shaped key. Note these are all designated for "CAR"

I have looked these over and I am disregarding any of the information here as I cannot see how it particularly fits into what we are trying to understand without leaving us with more questions than where we began. In other words I do not see how this pertains.

[Guest 1930]

After communicating with George at the key men for the past few couple of days and explaining to him what our goal is in trying to uncover these things here is his last comment:

"It's my view that it's not possible to resolve the issue unless you find

an original stamped key. There is no literature that would resolve the

issue unless it was Dodges orders for the keys".

I like this response, Dodges order for the keys, makes me think Dodges ( their order or numbering system ( JL maybe ? ) and the vendors ( IM ) maybe

I did ask him if he thought the United Motors Automotive confidential key code book would reveal anything as well pryor to his comment.

Just doesn't make any sense that a guy can spend $20-30,000 on a restoration bringing something back to it's original form but have a $10 key be the only thing that isn't original or is questionable at the very least.

Questionable is the key word, no-one/very few care or would know the difference.

[Guest 1930]

Just a brief update from George at the key men.

His latest reply in regards to my last question in regards to the United Motors Confidential Auto Key Codes . My question was "That wouldn't help if we were to locate one somewhere ? It says shows lock codes for many U.S. autos from 1924 to 1936"

His response was :

"I have one of these. All it does is show the codes and the cuts.and

their equivalent key, which doesn't even look like an original key.

United Motors was a brand cooked up by the GM parts department to allow

them to sell replacement keys for other brands as well as their own".

Last portion is just ignorance, he simply does not know any better so blurts out whatever makes the problem go away

[30DodgePanel]

I have looked these over and I am disregarding any of the information here as I cannot see how it particularly fits into what we are trying to understand without leaving us with more questions than where we began. In other words I do not see how this pertains.

Thats fine. I was just pointing out the descrepancies that were found. Kinda goes to your point about "just selling keys". I don't think they cared as you say what the original shape was. The more I think about this the more I can see that we are bound to run into many different versions of untruths so my conclusion is starting to shape up like this.

1.) We need to find someone who has a fully documented original car and truck and see if the keys are a match.

or

2.) Original North East or Dodge Brothers literature that is time period correct that directly mentions it.

That's just my thoughts at this point.

[30DodgePanel]

Last portion is just ignorance, he simply does not know any better so blurts out whatever makes the problem go away

LOL , how did I know you were gonna say that..

Exactly what I was thinking. Glad to see you caught that.

EDIT: I still want that United Motors book. Even more now.

[Guest 1930]

Here is where I am at, I removed the ignition/col assy from my own car this A.M and took it apart a little. Sure enough I had never fiddled with the tumblers on this one, the faceplate has never been removed, IM # 045.

If it were a replacement key than the IM # would not be printed on it in this fashion. This is ( as far as I know at this point ) the original key with the original IM #.

If someone were to wish for a spare key they would take this key to a locksmith and he would look in his catalog for the IM number variances

For instance this one would be possibly 42017 which is what he may use as a blank but the IM code would not be printed on the key, he would see that it originally used 2 4 4 5 3 # tumblers and from there he knows the depth of each cut on the key.

If someone would have lost their key than the locksmith would prob. have to find that IM number on the cylinder or housing which obviously means removing entire assy from car but again the spare would not have the IM # printed on it. ( in my opinion and as far as what I am thinking at this point )

I am sure that the keys George had made up does not carry the IM # on the key but correct me if I am wrong

Edited February 3, 2013 by 1930 (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

Heres another part of the answer, I am not sure how to do this and get my pics in the correct order so I will continue with separate posts.

Also look at some of the posts above, I replied within your quoted post in highlighted text, it seemed easier, you will only see a # 1 though in the response area

[Guest 1930]

Here is an early Clum Key, as far as I know Clum made keys for other manuf. other than D.B Ford I guess and who knows who else, is this truly a D.B key, I do not know but am planning to look into this further.

First line for ignition key Briggs and Straton 1 to 25 up to car # A514995, I need to look and see when this was approx but I know you dont care so I wont bother here now.

I have a feeling that this is not a D.B key

[30DodgePanel]

but I know you dont care so I wont bother here now.

I wouldn't assume that. I am very curious about this , maybe we can revist this in the end. I have many questions

about the Clums as well

EDIT: Actually I have a hunch some of the answers we are trying to uncover are related to the history of the Clums. Just a hunch though...

EDIT #2 Post 116 is some great info. Really helps.

Edited February 3, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

I think this will be the only truly correct D.B key up until car No A 701667 ( again need to see where that serial number ends )

I do not know what is meant by 112-122 not supplied but maybe they went with a different supplier, I doubt it, maybe these were an order of fixed locks, who knows.

Edited February 3, 2013 by 1930 (see edit history)