Brake return springs

[Barney Eaton]

I discovered a broken brake return spring on my '39 today. I checked with local parts houses and they sell "brake hardware" kits but nothing that old. Bob's catalog shows their hardware kit fits all Buick models from '36 to '51 and you get enough hardware for two wheels.

I need one spring........ anyone know a manufacture and part number and I will see if I can find one in the big city.

Second item..........

Also I noticed a coolant leak that seems to be coming from the back of the water pump.

The service manual seems to indicate you can remove the water pump with the fan attached. True?

Should I replace the water pump with a rebuild or just find the leak and fix it?

This car was restored in 1994 and has roughly 1500 miles since then. I believe all the above parts were replaced at that time.

[trp3141592]

Hi,

I have dealt with water pump issues on my 37 Roadmaster. Many threads exist on this forum concerning removal and installation of the water pump encompassing several years.

First, tape a large sheet of cardboard to cover and protect the engine side of the radiator. Cut up a cardboard box or use heavy poster board. Cardboard is free at your local grocery store; a recore job on your radiator is about $600.00.

Second, do not even consider removing the pump unless you intend to rebuild it. With the amount of effort involved to remove and reinstall this pump and the fan, not having the pump rebuilt while you have it out of the car is loco. Hopefully, you'll then never have to do this again.

The only real difficulty in the whole process is reinstalling the fan. The overriding issue is that 1) you can't get the pump out or in with the fan still attached, 2) for removal, it's not too bad a problem to remove the fan first, followed by the pump, and, 3) it's a nightmare to reinstall the fan with your new pump on the engine because there's very little room between the fan and the radiator and you can't keep the *#!Y&^! fan lined up with the bolt holes in the hub while you're trying to contort your arthritic (or soon to be) fingers to start the fan retaining bolts.

You can do a search in the forum for help on installing the fan. Basically, two solutions to the re-installation problem have been offered.

Reinstallation of the fan after you have installed the rebuilt pump on the engine can be made MUCH easier either of the following ways.

1. Before you put the pump back on the engine, install new longer fan-holding bolts to the hub from the BACK side. Then install the pump on to the engine. These new bolts, acting as studs from the rear, will support the fan and hold it in place while you pretty easily install new lock washers and nuts, one set at a time, on the front side of the fan. I used new bolts, lock washers, and nuts from my personal shop inventory.

or,

2. Before you put the pump back on the engine, cut the head off of a sacrificial somewhat longer bolt (leaving you with a threaded stud), file the hacksawed end to a dull point and install the stud from the front of the hub. Once the pump is installed, use the pointy bolt/stud as a guide pin to locate, align, and support the fan while you install three fan bolts from the front. Then back out the pointed bolt/pin and install the fourth fan bolt from the front.

Either of these tricks will work, and work well. The first really supports and aligns the fan very well, but is not original design. The second leaves the installation looking more authentic since the four bolts will be installed from the front as was originally done.

Keep your temper and have fun, because if it's not fun, why the hell are you doing it?

--Tom

PS: I learned from the experience of rebuilding my LaSalle water pump that the friction fit of the rebuilding shaft to the rebuilding impeller was not tight enough, and the impeller slipped on the shaft. I had to take the pump out and apart a second time and seat the impeller on the shaft with Loktite Red. Fortunately, it's an easy job on the LaSalle engine. So when I had to do the Buick's water pump, it got Loktite Red'ed also. Word to the wise...

[trp3141592]

Hi,

Re: Brake springs: Your NAPA store has a springs catalog that covers much more than the online catalog. You may find a match-up there. You'll have to visit the store to see what's listed.

--Tom

[danhar1960]

Barney,

Re your leaking water pump. I've pulled a few of them and the problem is that the thin pressed metal plate at the rear has rusted and has holes in it.

There are kits that I've had in the past that come with a new plate but I have also used thin copper sheet formed to the backplate and then fitted to the pump between the body and the backplate. I agree that if you go to the time and trouble to pull it out I'd replace the bearing and seals. Be wary of a lot of the NOS stuff as the rubber in the seals perish with age.

If you don't find a brake shoe spring let me know and I'll post one over. (on the proviso that you become a '39 Buick team Member )

Danny

[Guest WEB 38]

Barney, I Have a large amount of old nos brake springs If you can discribe the one that you need I will send it to you at no charge.Bill WEB 38

[39BuickEight]

I should have all of my original springs from where I rebuilt mine. They might be 80 years old, but I don't recall any being broken. Let me know if you want one and I can send it to you.

[Barney Eaton]

I love you guys......... Allen in Australia had sent master parts catalog pictures that help, however I can view them but for some reason cannot save to post here.

The spring(s) are the two springs that hook to the top anchor and pull the shoes tight against the pivot. I believe they are identified as "A" and "F" in the parts picture, but the part is the same on both sides. If someone can send me a spring I will gladly reinburse you for shipping. No hurry other than an old man forgetting where all the parts are in the shop. I found the broken spring while investigating why the car would start to stop normal but as it slowed, wanted to pull hard to the right. I pulled the right side first and everything looked normal, good shoes, no fluid leaks, the wheel grease was almost runny and it was only 70F here yesterday. I removed all the old grease, cleaned the bearings and regreased with Mobil 1 bearing grease. When I removed the left front, the spring was broken and laying between the backing plate and the shoe. Pulling it out I found the long end was broken in the first coil and the end that hooks into the shoe was badly deformed (probably got caught by the brake drum at some time. Nothing else was bad or damaged, again no fluid leaks etc.

Allen also sent the water pump explosion and I agree with the crowd.... pretty sure I will replace the pump. I think the leak is the gasket where the pump meets the block. I will first try tightening the bolts. I picked up an aftermarket 6 blade fan and want to try that on the car.

The old girl just does not like hot weather.......not a real problem even at 90 F if you are on the open road but stop and go traffic is no fun.

[Guest WEB 38]

Barney I need the length and with and number of coils if possable. Bill

[trp3141592]

Hi Barney,

Another possibility should be considered when your car pulls to one side when braking: possibly a collapsed rubber brake hose on the opposite side. Assuming that your flex hoses were replaced in the 1994 overhaul, that still leaves them 19 years old. These things do not last forever. They swell up on the inside and shut down the flow of brake fluid. You can't diagnose the problem from inspection from the exterior: you have to remove them.

If you replace the flex hoses, buy good ones that meet US DOT standards. Avoid the $20/set-of-three Ebay specials that are made in Argentina--their quality is uncertain. The high quality hoses should cost you about $20-25 each.

Best wishes,

--Tom

Edited January 21, 2013 by trp3141592
Clarified cost of hoses. (see edit history)

[FLYER15015]

Barney,

You mentioned in your last post that you had purchased a 6 bladed fan. Is it a Hayden stainless flex fan ? If so, you will have to cut about 1/2" off the back edge of the blades, to clear the generator pully.

I used the cardboard and pointy stud trick when I did mine. Don't forget to dial the stud down to 6 o'clock position, and hang the fan on it and the pilot hole. Then you can screw 3 bolts in real easy.

Brake springs are easy at any decent Autozone or Pep Boys. Just take yours in and match them up.

Best Regards,

Mike in Colorado

[Barney Eaton]

I must be loosing it....... now I can't find the good one to measure.

Reconstructing from the broken one (I can find it) the overall length is 5 in. there is 23 coils, the OD of the coil is .545 +/- dirt, the wire is just under .100. the long length from the hook to the first coil is 2 1/2 in and the coils are 2 1/4 long.

Looks like I need 2 now.

[Guest WEB 38]

Barney you are in luck I have 3 of them, Sending them all just in case you lose another. I should have your address from the Reatta club, But I cant find my newsletters. Isnt old age fun. PM Me your address and I Will get right out to you. Bill WEB 38

[Barney Eaton]

All is well (except my mind) Bill (web 38) sent me 3 new springs which arrived on Thursday. A group of us had done to the Houston Auto Show that day so it was late when we got home so the next morning I moved the car to install the spring. Tire off, brake drum off and guess what? There was the good spring which I had reinstalled so I would not misplace it...... don't get old.

The weather was great, about 60F when I started and then gave it a road test. I still have the pulling problem as the car slows. Just to be sure, I will replace the brake hoses. Any chance they are somewhat standard and can be purchased locally?

The aftermarket fan I purchased is a 6 blade, mfg unknown. It is a steel core, with stainless blades rivited to the core. I read about others installing these and they require some rework. I am pretty sure my water leak at the water pump is at the point where the water pump bolts to the block,

[trp3141592]

Hi,

Just to be sure, I will replace the brake hoses. Any chance they are somewhat standard and can be purchased locally?

I see that Georgetown is close to Austin. Most large cities will have a hose-building shop that can fabricate new hoses for you when given the originals as exemplars. Just be sure the hose is DOT-rated.

Make sure you replace all the flex hoses. If one is shot, they all are on the brink. I remember a thread in this forum that stated that there is a 4th flex hose, a short one, at the master cylinder. Check your car. If so, it should be replaced also.

I got my DOT-rated replacement hoses for the LaSalle and then for the Buick, from a supplier/fabricator called Brake Hoses Unlimited in Holland, Michigan, whom I found on EBay. Hoses were perfect, service was great, cost was reasonable. Their website is Rubber and Braided Stainless, Flex Line items in Brake Hoses Unlimited store on eBay!. When the Cord is ready for them this summer, I'll get that hose set from these folks also.

NOTE: There are cheap non-DOT Argentine-made hoses listed on EBay also, so be careful to note what you're looking at if you go surfing.

Have fun with your Buick!

--Tom

[Barney Eaton]

Tom.......... did you see the recent Hemming ad for the 1937 Cord 812 Custom Berline on a 135" wheelbase, claims to be the only one made.

I always look at unusual/odd ball/custom cars. I did a custom cover for a fellow in California with a factory long wheelbase Cord and up to that time I was not aware of them. Then was at a collection in Columbus OH and they had one. Found the link, see below

Hemmings Find of the Day – 1937 Cord 812 Custom Berline | Hemmings Blog: Classic and collectible cars and parts

[trp3141592]

Hi Barney,

I had not seen that this well-documented Cord was put up for sale; thank you for the info. This car is indeed a one-off assembly, with three extra inches added to the already-extended 132" longer wheelbase chassis. The extra length was dedicated to the rear passenger area. Standard wheelbase, such as my Cord Westchester sedan has, is 125 inches.

In my opinion, increasing the length and the height of the Custom Cords, necessitating the added 8th louvre at the grille, certainly did not improve the beauty of Buehrig's original Cord design. Also, to my thinking, the addition of the bustle trunk is beneath the dignity of further comment.

Cord struggled to make it with a high-priced car in a depressed market. So it will always be in the art world, for the Cord automobile is not a car, it is a work of art.

--Tom