1910Hupp Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Today I took the Hupp for a run and it was going really well then it missed .I lost all power and then it stopped and I coasted to the side of the road . Following that it would fire once but not catch on and run . I've had problems with the magneto cutting out and it has been rebuilt twice already -as I had compression and fuel i figured thart it was the magneto especially because the spark I had seemed weak!My son towed me home and I pulled the magneto to find that the cam gear is all chewed up and I suspect the magneto drive is losing drive hence the failure. Regardless of the magneto condition I can't put the magneto back without replacing the cam drive . I have a matching set of gears for the crank and cam which I will need to install . My understanding is that I will have to remove the engine to do this and also remove and rebabbit the camshaft . I've never removed the engine before and would appreciate some advice . Is it easier to remove the engine with or without the transmission. I I could I would prefer to leave the transmission in place if i can . Any advice gratefully receivedI taken some photos but have to resisze them before I can post them Thanks Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Yikes...sorry to hear of your trouble.....if I remember correctly the cam is in a separate housing that is removable from engine...or is the gear driving the cam gear bad also?I also believe that the mounting for the engine and transmission to the frame crossmember is so common that it's easier to remove as a unit.While you have it apart you should check all bushings in transmission for wear.I'll see if I can dig up manual and what it says about engine removal....the one good thing is how simple it is to take a Model 20 apart....good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1910Hupp Posted January 14, 2013 Author Share Posted January 14, 2013 Thanks David I have a matching set of cam and crank gears so fiqured would be best to replace both . As you say would also give me the opportunity to inspect the transmision bearings and internals of the engine as well. I think I will pull the engine and gear box together - Am I correct in assuming that the U joint just pulls out of the back of the gearbox ie is not held in by anything other than press fit? -Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Yes it's just a slide fit....there's a large bushing at the back end of the transmission that the rear gear rides in, and in the center of this gear is a bushing for the transmission shaft....mine was well worn, and fixing made a huge difference in how the car shifts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1910Hupp Posted January 15, 2013 Author Share Posted January 15, 2013 Here are the pictures of the cam gear It has been rocking back and forth and has wallowed out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Yes, that's a mess! Good that you have the new gears available. The engine's definitely been apart before, someone put new bolts (note the grade 5 markings on bolt heads) which weren't available, of course, in 1910.....a good time to look through the engine and transmission, if this wear is there then I'd bet you'll find another problem or two.....this is a very simplistic drive train, so should be no problem to fix, although when I had the bushings done in my transmission it got kinda pricey, so much so that the owner of the machine shop which did the work cut me a big break on the cost, as even he felt uncomfortable with the bill....If you haven't had the transmission off before, pay close attention to the washers on the drive shaft between engine and clutch assembly, that's a whole separate discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1910Hupp Posted January 15, 2013 Author Share Posted January 15, 2013 The engine and transmision was rebuilt 2000 miles ago by the previous owner at huge expense (I have the receipts) Since I have had it its always had a rattle in the back of the motor which I (and every one else who had listened ) had just assumed was transmission. I now suspect it was movement of the camshaft gear on the camshaft. I'm actually quite looking forward to pulling the engine and having a look round -I use the car a lot and it will be reassuring for me to know that every thing has been done right . Gearbox has always shifted nicely and clutch has always worked as well as any 1910 clutch with minimal if any drop in revs with engagement so I'm hopeful that these components will need nothing done to them. Already as I take things off for removal I have discovered that the upstands on the crankcase petcocks are at least 1 inch which Max has suggested is 3/8 to long and may explain the oil leakage I get In the meantime the Model T will furfill my veteran motoring over the remainder of our summer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Keep us posted! And nice backup ride...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1910Hupp Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 Progress to date - The engine is out which was something of an anticlimax it probably took less than 2 hours form begnning to end to remove it. My son helped me and we went nice and slowly taking lots of notes and photos. The engine has been disassembled and I have attached some photos . As expected the camshaft gear has been rocking back and forth on the key in the camshaft and we will need to replace this. My understanding is that the camshaft is set up and then babbitis poured round it. We thought we would prepare a plaster cast of the clearances as it sits currently and use this to ensure correct placement when we repour the babbit - Unless any one else has a more elegant way to set it up ???There is some wear on the front surface of the sliding gear in the gearbox but is trivial. Otherwise things look pretty good . The valves all look good The bearings are excellent We have crack tested the crank and it is fine . Interestingly enough we placed a model T crank on top of the crank shaft and they are almost identical The engine reconditioner is convinced if needed a model T crank could be machined to fit Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 On the Model T connection, the cluster of gears in my Model 20 differential destroyed themselves a number of years ago. A set of Model T gears looked to be close so I ordered a set.... And they had to be modified oh so slightly to fit....one would wonder if same machine shops were supplying both Ford and Hupmobile with nearly identical parts in some cases... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1910Hupp Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 Yes, that's a mess! .....a good time to look through the engine and transmission, if this wear is there then I'd bet you'll find another problem or two......How True David -So Far we have found Camshaft installed in bearings at an angle , Camshaft gear flogged out , Camshaft bent 40 thou (and subsequently broke in two when we tried to straightened it as so brittle). Camshaft cover plate and engine face both not true Grub screw fragement stuck in and partially blockiing a bearing oiler hole Several bearing bolt nuts stripped (and just finger tight on one) and those that weren't stripped had been mushroomed through overtightening. The engine reconditioner thought that we probably had less than 200 miles before one let go with devestating results . Much as I might begrudge the cost of strip down and rebuild ( not to mention the new cam shaft) it is going to work out a lot cheaper doing it now than later ! Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Transmission does look good. On the camshaft housing, are those repairs that I'm seeing in a couple of places, looks like welds or brazing smoothed down? Good luck with your rebuild, sounds like the person who did it the last time just sort of knew what they were doing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1910Hupp Posted February 6, 2013 Author Share Posted February 6, 2013 (edited) Camshaft housing cracks have has been welded in the past Also some cracks in the crankcase which have been dealt to as well . All welds look like they have been done well although the camshaft housing ones are a little porous and probably more so now we have skimmed the housing . Will coat the inside with Araldite prior to reassembly to seal it up. The delay at the moment is the camshaft. I actually have a spare but its not in the greatest condition and I suspect is probably just as brittle as the original so safer to make a new one. The cam has been formed and sent away for stress relieving then it comes back to be ground then sent away again for nitriding. The quote for the cam was NZ$300-400 which currently equates to about US$ 260-340 which sounds pretty cheap for a camshaft. Apart from some new rod and bearing cap bolts thats all the parts we have used So the bulk of the cost will be labour (about US$ 50-60 an hour) . I have great faith in the engine reconditioner having ridden in a 1910 Stoddart Dayton the engine and drive train of which was completely rebuild by this shop. They even went as far as making patterns and casting up cylinder blocks for it -It runs like a swiss watch ( or an Austin (Bantam) Seven on steriods as one of my friends describes it) ! Edited February 6, 2013 by hupdoc spelling (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Bowen Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Camshaft housing cracks have has been welded in the past Also some cracks in the crankcase which have been dealt to as well . All welds look like they have been done well although the camshaft housing ones are a little porous and probably more so now we have skimmed the housing . Will coat the inside with Araldite prior to reassembly to seal it up. The delay at the moment is the camshaft. I actually have a spare but its not in the greatest condition and I suspect is probably just as brittle as the original so safer to make a new one. The cam has been formed and sent away for stress relieving then it comes back to be ground then sent away again for nitriding. The quote for the cam was NZ$300-400 which currently equates to about US$ 260-340 which sounds pretty cheap for a camshaft. Apart from some new rod and bearing cap bolts thats all the parts we have used So the bulk of the cost will be labour (about US$ 50-60 an hour) . I have great faith in the engine reconditioner having ridden in a 1910 Stoddart Dayton the engine and drive train of which was completely rebuild by this shop. They even went as far as making patterns and casting up cylinder blocks for it -It runs like a swiss watch ( or an Austin (Bantam) Seven on steriods as one of my friends describes it) !I am familiar with all facets of Hupp 20 camshafts. New cam shafts are obtainable from Tighe Cams in Brisbane, Queensland. I had three made at a cost of AU$300 each about 3 or 4 years ago. They have the data now to set up their CNC lathes etc. The procedure for installing a new cam into the side plate is within the ability of hobbyists providing you stick to the rules. You will need: a pressure can of MolyTec Anti Nickel Seize; exhaust putty; diesel grade white metal; solder; a propane blow torch for heating (oxy torch is too fierce and concentrated); hand held infra red pyrometer (thermometer) as accuracy of temperature is essential; preferably two portable gas cylinders each with a pot stand for boiling a kettle; a cast iron pot in which to melt the metal (I use the inside of an old animal glue pot); a cast iron ladle with long handle to pour the molten metal; an old engine cylinder head and lastly lots of patience. The cylinder head provides a stable base on which to hold the side plate level and raised, using several threaded rods for adjustment. There needs to be enough room under the side plate to heat evenly to the melting point of solder so the places where the babbits are going can be tinned to form a bond for the white metal to cast iron.The most tricky part of all is making the metal dams to contain the molten white metal in place while it sets, sealed with exhaust putty. I used bits of aluminium window frame extrusion which is easy to cut and drill. You will also have to make two clamps of steel to hold the cam rigidly in place on the side plate.I can send photos of all these items so you know what they look like.To answer your question about stopping the babbit from sticking to the cam, MolyTec does that. Don't even attempt to use soot. The big problem is at the gear end of the side plate where there is a large chunk of cast iron which shrinks around the cam when it cools down and holds it tight. This is where I used paper, not brown paper, but news paper which readily disintegrates after it has done the job. Just wrap a small piece of newsprint around the journal twice. The MolyTec will cause it to stick there, and wipe MolyTec around the outside of the paper as well. With the cam suitably treated thus, it then has to be bolted onto the side plate using the jigs etc. THe side plate is brought up to temperature evenly all over to around 195 deg.C. The white metal is also heated until it melts and then poured into the holes above each journal while dibbling it with a piece of thinnish wire to make sure no air pockets form around the journal. When done, go away and let it all cool down slowly with no drafts.When it is cold remove the bits and pieces and the jigs. Presto! Oil it and the cam will turn around beautifully in the side plate. You may have to blow out the paper with compressed air.The camshaft is set exactly 3¼ inches, measured from its centre to the tops of the cam follower housings on the side plate, with 1/8th inch of white metal covering it on the machined face of the side plate. Fitting the finished side plate to the crankcase is another job requiring great accuracy. I can furnish you with precise details for doing that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1910Hupp Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 Thanks Edgar I have forwarded this very helpful information to the Engine rebuilder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1910Hupp Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 It lives!!! I have slowly assembled the engine and ancillaries back together . I finished last night and for a couple of hours contemplated starting it Made all sorts of excuses why I should delay it until the light of day -basically I was scared it wouldn't start and I would go to bed dissappointed but in the end I flipped it over . Two flips and it was running - so quiet and so smooth compared with previously. No fluid leaks . I ran it for 5 minutes then dumped all the fluids and refreshed them all . Other than a minor inlet manifold leak and that the timing also might need a little adjustment as it sounds a little retarded everything great in my household !! -Thanks for all the help Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 woo-hoo! A reason to be huppy, uh, happy that is..........! Glad all is well....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1910Hupp Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 Engine now running nicely attached is a link to a video I took this morning of the car running Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Sounds great, and the good thing is that now you know the engine has been done properly! Well done..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Minerva Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Hi Karl - congrats on getting the engine back together and thanks heaps for posting the video. Now I know what mine is supposed to sound like when I get it going!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Bowen Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 It is so satisfying to have a veteran car engine running again and well at that. congratulations.Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1910Hupp Posted March 31, 2013 Author Share Posted March 31, 2013 Thanks couldn't have done it without you all on this list. Used your advice regards pulling the engine , setting up the camshaft ,reinstalling the engine and finally readjusting the gearbox once we had it back in. Thanks once againHave just returned home from an Easter break to Tauranga about 5 hours north of where I live . While there I caught up with a Model 20 that has just been imported from the States. The car is the one featured in a Hemmings article and was on Ebay recently . Vault cars in California sold it . Wow it is one nice car ! Restoration is really top notch. As far as I can work out everything looks original. Most impressively the owners wife drove it to the show. The owner Roger found me through this site so hopefully he will join up and post some photos (my camera wasn't working!) We seem to be getting a collection of early Hups down under -Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30 Hupp Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Sweet sounding engine!!!! Congratulation's on a job well done! ( Nice looking car, too! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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