X-Frame Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) I have what should be a simple question yet puzzling.I know that in the states, the 1961 Pontiac changed from the center tunnel X frame to a perimeter one but the Canadian Pontiac’s kept on through the 1964 model year with the X design.Though the Canadian body styles kept up with American design changes, how did they accomplish this when the floor pans between the two frames are completely different?Would they have gone through all the trouble to make a seperate pan for the new body designs - if so, why not simply change the frame at the same time as the US did?Thanks!Eric Edited December 21, 2012 by X-Frame (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob McDonald Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 ERIC, Canadian Pontiacs were built on Chevrolet frames, including Chevy engines and Powerglide transmissions. The sheet metal and trim (and interiors, I think) kept pace with US Pontiac styling, while matching Chevrolet mechanical updates. This situation continued until sometime in the early '80s, even after the big downsizing and long after adoption of the Auto Pact, which was supposed to rationalize North American car production.Here's a similar answer I posted recently, regarding Canadian Dodges - http://forums.aaca.org/f169/canadian-built-dodges-1953-54-a-341804.html#post1110668Ford did things a little differently, by adding Monarch as a rebadged Mercury and Meteor as a Ford-equivalent, so that both Ford and Mercury dealers had a full line, including Mercury trucks. Lincolns were sold, in small numbers, by Mercury dealers. I don't know where Edsels fit in, during their brief run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poci1957 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Rob is correct, and to expand on his answer: In 1961 the US Chevy and Pontiac shared the B body shell (structure), but with different floor pans to mate up with the different frames. Frames were the responsibility of Pontiac Motor Division, floors were engineered by Fisher Body, traditional US GM practice for decades. Canadian Pontiacs used the Chevy frame and the Chevy floorpan with Pontiac exterior styling. In some years this frame was a shorter wheelbase and meant a Canadian Pontiac often had unique shorter fenders and/or quarter panels. Confusing and interesting, Todd Crews, POCI 1957 Technical Advisor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Frame Posted December 21, 2012 Author Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) Thanks guys. It is just odd that they would go to the lengths to mate a Chevy floor pan with Pontiac body when it seems like it would have been simpler to just go with the flow and change frames in 1961? Why did they continue until 1964? I know, Canadian Pontiac's were Chevy's underneath - which is a question in itself. Why sell both Chevy and Pontiac in Canada yet have a Pontiac hybrid? Isn’t that a bit redundant?In the states, they dropped the tubular X in 1965 introducing the perimeter on all remaining GM models except the 1965 Cadillac Fleetwood 75 Limousine (which was a 1964 inside and out) and the Buick Riviera, which continued on through 1970.There was so much controversy about the frame without side rails one wonders why it was used on any model beyond 1964?Any ideas?Thanks again!!!Eric Edited December 21, 2012 by X-Frame (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob McDonald Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 "Why sell both Chevy and Pontiac in Canada yet have a Pontiac hybrid?"It was done to bring the price of a Pontiac down to almost the same as a Chev. This is from the Dodge thread: "This practice of blended low-priced models was also shared by GM and Ford because of Canada's far-flung dealer networks. Many towns would have had only one Chrysler dealership [or GM, in this case] and the next one might have been 50 miles away. Each dealer, therefore, needed a full range of cars to sell, from cheapest to high-end, and trucks as well."The usual dealerhip combinations were Chevrolet-Olds and Pontiac-Buick-GMC. Either one might also sell Cadillacs. From the late '50s to mid-'60s, Chev dealers also got the English captive import Envoy, while Pontiac was teamed with Vauxhall. Tiny Epics and Vivas were the last fruit of that arrangement.In 1969, my uncle Fred in Winnipeg bought a new Laurentian with a Chev 6-cylinder engine. Similar to this but it was dark red and had dog dish hubcaps. Might of had a radio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 The really strange thing about the Canadian market; where Ford motor Co. is concerned at least, is that all four lines[Ford, Meteor, Mercury and Monarch} were available. And Ford /Mercury generally outsold Meteor/Monarch. Why in a much smaller Canadian market did Ford Motor Corp. have twice the product lines than in the vastly larger U.S. market? G.M. kept the same divisions {Chev, Pontiac, Olds and Buick} but in many cases had different model names.[ And used Chevy engines in most of the Pontiacs} Not Firebird , Lemons/GTO and Grand Prix. These used the same 389, 400,421,455 as U.S. sold cars. Greg in Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 In the 50's and 60's the Canadian Pontiacs were quite a step up from their Chevrolet underpinings. They had better upholstery, foam padding in the seats while Chev still used cotton. The spring rates were also different. Many years the instrumentation was superior. Back in the 20's and 30's some years the Pontiacs (when they were the same chassis and running gear on both sides of the dotted line) were quite diferent inside. For example often the Canadian Pontiac had mohair upholstery while the American Pontiac had bedford cord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Magoo Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 As a kid growing up in the '50s and '60s close to the border, and like all boys then, constantly car spotting, I found all the oddball Canadian variants from the Big Three fascinating. Still do. Suddenly the mundane becomes exotic. Canadian Pontiacs were a relatively common sight then. Some years were easy to spot as the bodies were larger than the chassis, giving them an awkward look. Also, bolting Meteor parts on Fords was common among the kustomizer crowd. Meteor side trim and grilles were popular on '55-'56 Fords, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 (edited) I have what should be a simple question yet puzzling.I know that in the states, the 1961 Pontiac changed from the center tunnel X frame to a perimeter one but the Canadian Pontiac’s kept on through the 1964 model year with the X design.Though the Canadian body styles kept up with American design changes, how did they accomplish this when the floor pans between the two frames are completely different?Would they have gone through all the trouble to make a seperate pan for the new body designs - if so, why not simply change the frame at the same time as the US did?Thanks!Eric Todd really answers the question by saying this;"In 1961 the US Chevy and Pontiac shared the B body shell (structure), but with different floor pans to mate up with the different frames. Frames were the responsibility of Pontiac Motor Division, floors were engineered by Fisher Body, traditional US GM practice for decades. Canadian Pontiacs used the Chevy frame and the Chevy floorpan with Pontiac exterior styling. In some years this frame was a shorter wheelbase and meant a Canadian Pontiac often had unique shorter fenders and/or quarter panels. Confusing and interesting," I will add that the early 60's was the greatest success for Pontiac in Canada. during several years Pontiac actually came close to dethroning Chevrolet as best seller. Even if Acadian production is not included in the Pontiac total, the Chevrolet margin is barely 1.2 to 1 or fewer than 3,000 units.If you want to really see where the change between U.S. Pontiac cars and Pontiac of Canada all started you would have to look at the year 1937 in the Canadian 224 series. Then in 1938 the bodies were adapted to Canadian needs. The needs were a lower priced Pontiac to fill a gap from from what was then Pontiac and Chevrolet. Canadian Pontiac's were designed to fill that gap. Canadian Pontiac's didn't need a longer frame ( never even used the Cadillac "C" body or Buick-Olds Pontiac "B" body like some U.S. Pontiac's ) because they never used the straight eight. IMO a very funny looking car when the new models for 1949 came out, in fact we used to call these Canadian Pontiac's "stubbies". In 1949 in the U.S. The G.M. Fisher "A" body was used by Chevrolet, Pontiac and 76-88 series Olds. Frames/suspension for these three makes were very different. Chevrolet and Canadian Pontiac used 115" wheelbase, leaf springs in the rear with torque tube driveline. U.S. Pontiac uses 120" wheelbase open driveline and rear leaf springs. Olds uses 119.5" wheelbase, open driveline, and rear coil springs. The beauty of the U.S. version of the Pontiac was straight eight cylinder option and four speed Hydramatic. The beauty of the Olds was V-8 power and four speed Hydramatic. The U.S. Pontiac and Olds rode much more comfortably with the longer wheelbases and had a definite performance and economy edge with the four speed Hydramatic. Edited December 24, 2012 by helfen (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Maine Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Many years ago, I purchased a soft cover book on Canadian cars written by Perry Zavitz of something like that. I think there's an initial in front of Perry, like "S" or something. I'll have to find it. While it didn't have many illustrations, it had very good descriptions of Canadian cars and the differences between Canadian and US makes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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