Opinions Please: What do you all think of the removal of the "Rod vs Resto" thread?

[1936 D2]

I was trying to keep an eye on my prior thread concerning the very popular discussion on Rodding vs Restoration and the attempts at finding a way to protect cars that already were restored or were fully original survivors, but I was away for a few days and I see it got out of hand on the part of very limited number of participants.

I was extremely upset that the whole thread was removed. There was an excellent discussion proceeding on the subject and actually was bringing the "opposite sides" to some point of understanding. Usually when things get off topic like that only the off topic posts are removed - and rightfully so. I would have asked for that stuff to be removed if I had the time before other punitive action was taken. That thread gave a place for those discussions and was an effort to allow the airing of the thought process with hopes of giving it a separate location and to help keep it off other threads. I am not sure what the reasoning was on the part of the Moderator who remove the whole thread, but my opinion was it did the hobby a disservice by not allowing a specific location for those inevitable discussions.

I was also not contacted (even as of today) by any Moderator explaining why the full thread was removed. That seems very odd.

So I have also set this thread up to be a poll so your opinions can be quickly observed by Moderators and others concerning the removal of the whole thread.

I am not sure if the Moderators are able to request that Pete Gariepy try to recover the thread from the "trash bin", look through it, then only remove the off topic posts like has been done with other threads in the past. There was a lot of work put into this popular thread by many responders and maybe there is a way to preserve those efforts.

Let's see.

Edited December 15, 2012 by 1936 D2 (see edit history)

[R.White]

Perhaps even if you could get it back you could request that the poll at least be made a "sticky"?

Edited December 17, 2012 by R.White (see edit history)

[1936 D2]

They are very judicious on granting "Stickys". Doubt that could happen.

[Guest brian j]

I'm involved in other forums for vehicles such as American Motors, and International Harvester. The moderators on these forums generally draw the line at threads that are "no longer friendly", meaning the threads that show a continuing ill will, however true the subject may be. I think the intent of keeping these off is to keep the subject matter about the vehicles in general, and not politics, and philosophy, which can go on forever. Just look at the Republican vs. Democrat debates, or the abortion vs. pro life debates. These things go on for ever and ever, and it's not likely with even the slickest smoothest diatribe, that a person will change their basic philosophies of life,..........including Restoration vs. Rodding. Which of course is what makes this country we live in(even with it's faults), the greatest in the world. I personally believe in the Restoration of cars for the most part, but also have an understanding and interest in performance, customization, resto-mod(the alterations made for modern safety and reliabilty). Even Rat Rodding has a place, and offers opportunities for people who have a severely limited budget, or young entry level youth to enjoy the interest in old automobiles. But i also have my personal preference for Restoration, and with that, expect respect for my philosophy, and try to always respect others even if i have no understanding or leanings as to their beliefs. This is the line i draw.................no matter what vehicle, be it a hot rod, Rat Rod, Rust bucket, Model T, Fire truck, DB, Crosley, Delorean, Stutz...................................don't try to deny its owner his enjoyment in the car. We only get one go-around in this life, and we need to think more about our appreciation of what we've been blessed with. And not worry so much about what others have done to bring about THEIR happiness. I guess if anything were to bother me about the old car hobby, i have difficulty understanding how someone could have a beautiful old car, and not drive it. I personally could never own a trailer queen/concours car, but HEY.............to each, his own. Regards, and Happy Holidays.

Edited December 17, 2012 by brian j (see edit history)

[Jim Anselmo]

I think the intent of keeping these off is to keep the subject matter about the vehicles in general, and not politics, and philosophy, which can go on forever. Just look at the Republican vs. Democrat debates, or the abortion vs. pro life debates. These things go on for ever and ever, and it's not likely with even the slickest smoothest diatribe, that a person will change their basic philosophies of life,..........including Restoration vs. Rodding. Which of course is what makes this country we live in(even with it's faults), the greatest in the world. I personally believe in the Restoration of cars for the most part, but also have an understanding and interest in performance, customization, resto-mod(the alterations made for modern safety and reliabilty). Even Rat Rodding has a place, and offers opportunities for people who have a severely limited budget, or young entry level youth to enjoy the interest in old automobiles. But i also have my personal preference for Restoration, and with that, expect respect for my philosophy, and try to always respect others even if i have no understanding or leanings as to their beliefs. This is the line i draw.................no matter what vehicle, be it a hot rod, Rat Rod, Rust bucket, Model T, Fire truck, DB, Crosley, Delorean, Stutz...................................don't try to deny its owner his enjoyment in the car.

I agree with Brian... I enjoyed reading the "Rod vs Resto" thread at first, but then found myself reading it only to see who was "stirring the pot" so to speak.

Jim

[1936 D2]

But Brian and Jim, did you both miss where the thread was headed? The info was working it's way toward a possible solution of the "problem". If there is NOT a way to have a discourse about a sensitive subject, that subject will go on forever like you mentioned Brian. Those other Forums are just trying to sweep an inevitable subject under the rug and not give it a place to air. That is just ASKING for trouble, in my opinion, on a continuous never ending basis.

Yes, those other forms of vehicle appreciation have their place. But I also think the AACA is about saving/preserving historic vehicles. It is part of the "function". So this subject needs to have a place where the "function" can be discussed. I WOULD hope that others contributing to that discussion have some level of tolerance to be able to see that there are other vehicle interests out there in the world and stay on track. But the world should not be a place where it is a race to see who can get to the "good stuff" first. There should be a point where historically preserved vehicles can claim that position forever and be protected from other forms of vehicle appreciation where they are forever changed.

I would hope the point of this discussion is not for the purpose of changing minds (which is impossible as you say) but more of a way to drill down to a respected solution from both sides of the issue. I do not think we were too far off from that possible path until those without self control got a bit out of hand.

I also would never be trying to prevent others from being able to follow their dreams. BUT there MUST be a point where we can all do this together and not "cross the line". Vehicles already on the path to preservation or restoration should be allowed to stay on that path. There are plenty of other levels of vehicles out there that can be utilized for those purposes and not the ones already shown to be on the path to preservation or restoration. What we members on the AACA Forum should be trying to do is encourage both of those forms to have their place. And to do that it seems there MUST be a way to protect the vehicles already on that path and legally be able to direct those hobbyists less caring or informed to look for vehicles not already selected for the preservation path. It is a matter of education not "us vs you".

So my thread was designed to be a place to have the inevitable discussion and try to keep it out of the main stream of threads meant for other car stuff. If this subject is at all distasteful to someone, by having it all in one location, it is then helpful to others interested by giving it a "place to be" so those people can hash it out, and those disinterested can avoid it and not worry about it. I was intentionally hoping to give it that place and keep it out of the regular course of threads.

But to keep the sensitive discussion viable and on track we needed to make sure those joining in would be adult and keep it ONLY "on topic". I had various spots along the thread where I mentioned that, and was trying to monitor the discussion to stay on MY TOPIC. I was away for a couple days, come back and those that couldn't contain themselves got off topic. Before I was aware of it, the whole post was punitively removed (apparently) because there was no explanation given to me as to why it was totally removed. I am still holding out hope that cooler heads will prevail and the Moderators will be able to recover the "on topic" parts so that all the work toward a solution for saving those vehicles already restored or fully original survivors put into the subject by others will not be "trashed".

This is NOT then just the same old never ending discussion on the old diatribe of "rod vs resto". It IS intended to be a place to HAVE the discussion. Is my point more clear now? I do hope so.

Moderators - Does this help make the intention more obvious?

[Guest 1930]

Not too be in the least bit confrontational and please dont think I am trying to be in any way shape or form confrontational because although discussions and differences of opinions are allowed on this site badgering and name calling are not and I like to play within the guidelines but I just have too say.

Sorry havent read your entire post yet but I need to stop and make a comment, you continue to use terms like .......until those without self control got a bit out of hand..........Correct me if I am wrong but aren't you the first person to get off topic and accuse another poster of ulterior motives with what he does with his own vehicle. YOU went into great length about how you felt he had no ambition or motive to restore his vehicle originally!

You apologized to him a few days later after he called you out ( and you stopped sulking about being called out in my humble opinion ) on your mis-guided synopsis of his situation but seriously do you honestly think that its OK now or then to point the fingers at others for ruining your thread as you did ( just for instance ) to me VIA personal e-mail and here on this forum. I believe your words were ......Let me see.........this is your fault, You were again fully off topic............

This is a joke, admit you were wrong, acknowledge that there were others that got off course, myself and at least one other person although it slips my memory who that was and get on with life.

Not looking for a response here because I will not debate this subject with you here or anywhere else but please consider what I have said. Its easy to blame everyone else around you but your entire thread was removed because you wouldnt even adhere to your own guidelines that you set up within the very first post.

Have a nice day and Merry Christmas

Edited December 17, 2012 by 1930 (see edit history)

[Guest brian j]

IMHO the only way to change he deeply rooted ideals of another is to befriend the person and SHOW them your point in a new positive light. I other words get the 2 sides together in each others territory. Only then can they see you as you want to be seen. Get out of your armchairs, and walk amongst the guys with their Rat Rods,etc. Talk to them respectfully, and LISTEN to what they say, and you'll find you aren't so far apart after all. I remember going to a car show that the so called "tuner cars" were featured (Toyotas and the like). I didn't know much about these cars so i cornered one of the participants, and asked him about his car. He enthusiastically went on about the work he had done, and how he struggled to find parts, and money to put into it, and if i would have closed my eyes i could easily have pictured myself with my 1950 Chevrolet pickup, back in 74'. He was obviously pumped up to see an old geezer like me looking over his pride and joy. I knew in my heart this kid had the bug, and i will probably spot him again when he's older, and showing off his Dodge Brothers car he picked up, and has dug as deeply into as the tuner car he has today. As people get older they tend to forget about the early days, with the old leaky rust buckets, we were so proud to own. And the smell of axle grease, and gasoline in our clothes, after a day of busted knuckles and a few well placed curse words. We were hooked on these cars, like a fish on a hook, and there wasn't anyone or anything could convince us our way wasn't the only way. But we really need to be careful about stepping on others toes,................lest someone decide to step on ours one day. RESPECT is what it's all about. That's why veiled comments on a persons character, or choice of iron, or intelligence level don't cut it. Sometimes i think people don't even realize they are doing it. They think by soft peddling the comments, and not being direct, that somehow they are being "nice". There is just no way to win a person over, by patting them on the back with one hand, and yankin' their hemorroids with the other. That's why this subject continues to repeat, on most every forum i've been on. We really need to take a good hard look at ourselves in the mirror to see where the solution lies. Regards.

[bostonhemi]

I was startled and confused to see one of the best threads I've seen on any car sight completely removed. There is nothing wrong with discussing valid topics and having disagreements in what I believe to be a proper forum. How else does some1 understand a different view or possibly change an opinion on a subject? Giving examples of certain experiences or observations seems to me the better way rather than name calling etc.. So why not simply just remove "off topic'' comments? I was quite interested in reading a variety of opinions although I may disagree and am sorry to see it go.

On this subject I for the most part agree with D2 & Brian. TY

[countrytravler]

I was startled and confused to see one of the best threads I've seen on any car sight completely removed. There is nothing wrong with discussing valid topics and having disagreements in what I believe to be a proper forum. How else does some1 understand a different view or possibly change an opinion on a subject? Giving examples of certain experiences or observations seems to me the better way rather than name calling etc.. So why not simply just remove "off topic'' comments? I was quite interested in reading a variety of opinions although I may disagree and am sorry to see it go.

On this subject I for the most part agree with D2 & Brian. TY

Have to agree with this one!!

[1936 D2]

From "1930":

"Not too be in the least bit confrontational and please dont think I am trying to be in any way shape or form confrontational ... badgering and name calling are not and I like to play within the guidelines.... Hmmmm...

Sorry havent read your entire post yet ...

You apologized to him a few days later after he called you out ( and you stopped sulking about being called out in my humble opinion )

As I said, I was away from the Forum for a while. New job training. Had to go back to work out of retirement to pay for hugely increased Health Insurance costs.

on your mis-guided synopsis of his situation

There were other contacts made between "bbbbbb9" and myself via email you are not aware of along with the public apology for my misunderstanding of "bbbbbb9's" situation that I made on the thread minutes before it was removed. I am guessing many readers did not see that entry because of the timing with the removal of the thread. If you were a contributor, you probably saw it though in your email notifications. (Read it there).

but seriously do you honestly think that its OK now or then to point the fingers at others for ruining your thread as you did ( just for instance ) to me VIA personal e-mail and here on this forum?

YES. My reading of the posts causing the issue from the prior couple of days (once I was able to get back to the Forum) showed they were off topic​, the very thing I had warned about back in post #36 as I recall.

I believe your words were ......Let me see........."this is your fault, You were again fully off topic...".........

True. And I now again publicly stand by those quoted words.

This is a joke,

Hardly

admit you were wrong,

I have - concerning my earlier part with "bbbbbb9" both personally AND publicly.

acknowledge that there were others that got off course,

True. I have already done that.

myself and at least one other person although it slips my memory who that was and get on with life.

Trying. That is why I started this new thread in an effort to possibly get the Moderators to understand the importance of the earlier thread and to possibly (if the computer allows them to do so) reopen the original thread with, removal of the off topic entries (mine included if they feel that way), and get the discussion back on track.

Not looking for a response here because I will not debate this subject with you here or anywhere else but please consider what I have said. Its easy to blame everyone else around you but your entire thread was removed because you wouldnt even adhere to your own guidelines that you set up within the very first post. Do you have some first hand knowledge of this statement? Because I sure don't. Again, no Moderator has yet contacted me as to why the thread was removed.

Even if I made a mistake of getting the post off topic (which I did not - we were discussing the topic), that does not then negate the issue of off avoiding inappropriate topic posts by other contributors such as what happened. You need to take some responsibility for your own actions.

Have a nice day and Merry Christmas"

(Sarcasm maybe? As typical - Who knows! I sure don't.)

I was "called out" on this post and now I have had my chance to address the issues brought up. As you stated earlier Jason, I will not debate this subject with you any further.

So everyone fully understands, I am not happy with how these issues panned out on my earlier thread. It was disrupted and I currently only hope it can be repaired.

Let's see where my earlier post goes from here.

[bbbbbb9]

I can't find an email showing a post with an apology and I have yet to recieve a personal email with one. With that said, it's not necessary. We all have differing opinions. For The Record. my plans for my 1936 5 window Coupe are as follows;

Find as many period correct replacement parts as possible. I do have money restrictions and time restrictions for travel. It is missing so many parts that I have decided to NOT restore it. I will however be using a flathead six and would love to have a correct rear end. The engine will have a dual carb Offy intake and home made dual exhaust manifold. I will be mating a T5 transmission to it and will upgrade the front brakes to Discs.

That's MY plan.

I offer this up to those who would potentially sell me parts so they can not do that if that is their desire. I would love the car to look stock and be as if someone had "hopped" it up in the 50s. I would think the Youth of America would love to see a car like this and it is definately part of the history of cars seeing ways people used to hop up cars. (T5 and Discs excluded)

[Guest brian j]

I once had a 1934 Chrysler Airflow that was like your car bbbbbb9. It was a very parts intensive car that was i decided at one point would not be a very feasible original restoration. Believe me i sat on that car for 10 years, not getting anywhere with it. It just needed too many hard to find parts, and i only had 1 lifetime to find them, which i had discerned was too little time to complete it. I just had too little patience to spend the rest of my life hunting them down. It had a good running engine and overdrive trans,and a rare radio, so i sold them to people who were restoring Airflows. The basic rolling body went to a Rodder, and some rare parts that garnered no interest on Ebay here in the U.S. went to Sweden to a very appreciative Airflow owner. Originally i bought the car to restore it, but as in your case, it wasn't in the cards. So i did the next best thing. I got my money back, and then some. I got much needed parts to new homes that would bring RESTORABLE Airflows back to life, and EVERY part to this car is serving someone somewhere. The moral to this story.........Do what works for YOU.........and make yourself happy...........and the rest of the world be damned if they don't like it. If someone gets on your case tell them, as soon as they start financing your project, then they can tell you what way to do it. Don't get me wrong.....i am really into correct restorations...........within reason. I once had a 1967 AMC Marlin "parts car" i was using for a Marlin i was restoring. It's a very rare car and few remain. It had been languishing outdoors , and had sank to the floor pans into the ground. It had rusted so badly the unibody frame rails/floor were barely holding the seats to the floor. A real true Flintstones car. But it was pretty much complete. While i was winching it on my trailer the car nearly broke in half, it was so rusted. After i got the parts i needed, i offered parts to be used to restore other Marlins on a forum, and was surprised when i found myself being chided for calling it a "parts car", and was instructed that NO Marlin is a parts car. (because they are rare). Give me a break! This car sat for sale for 2 years outdoors for $500.00 , and NO takers. Yet as soon as i picked it up someone was trying to tell me i had some sort of responsibility to glorify this rust pile with a restoration, and deny parts to people who could bring the numbers of restored Marlins up. You have to take others opinions with a grain of salt, and do what right for you at the end of the day. Good luck with your car. Regards.

[countrytravler]

Very well put!