What car in this 1909 photo of Bleriot landing at Dover?

[Guest John Latter]

Hi,

I'm trying to identify what car is in the background of this photo showing Louis Bleriot in Northfall Meadow behind Dover Castle after he had made the first flight across the English Channel in 1909:

Click on the photo to visit the webpage or see a larger size here.

Hope you can help!

John Latter / Jorolat

[Vintman]

Need to be very brave to put a name to this one. Tiny bit too small. But, .... seems a side entrance body so perhaps a phaeton, part flayaway front mudguard with flat trailing rear mudguard, large ornate radiator over front axle with seemingly an angled header tank, ... could well be a cca 1907/8 De Dion Bouton 8HP. ... or many other things!

Regards

Vintman

[Manuel]

Can we get any closer? Can someone zoom in or enlarge the car?

Manuel in Oz

[Vintman]

The Panoramio enlargement does not seem to work. Presumably it is the same as the enlarged photo on the forum. So not much help actually.

Regards

Vintman

[Bleach]

This photo is from the Smithsonian photo archives. If someone has access to their photo database you might get a larger version. It is image number 93-9132

[Guest John Latter]

Thank you for your replies, everyone (interesting info, Vintman!). Here's an enlargement of the car:

Click on the photo to visit the webpage or see the largest size here (972 x 649 pixels).

This is about the best I can do with my limited image processing skills!

John Latter / Jorolat

[nzcarnerd]

Outside chance it is a single cylinder Cadillac.

[trimacar]

There's a picture of Bleriot riding into town in a car, not sure if it's the same car. This was all happening in England so chances are it's not an American built car.

Attached is a picture taken from a video of him riding, can't find the original even after searching the somewhat tedious Smithsonian image archives. It can be seen in this video at the 3:15 minute mark

[Vintman]

Hi, Not the same car in London as in Dover. Done a bit of digging! The London car can be seen on another photo sporting registration LN 5500 which is London County Council cca Jan 1909 and which is still arround, being a 1908 Napier Type 23A 45 HP. The Type 23A was introduced near the close of 1908 and this one appears one of the earliest. Sold at Christies 2007 Auction of 'Exceptional Motor Cars at the Monterey Jet Center' for $682,000. They say it was believed to have been directly exported to the United States. In the 1960s the car returned to England and into the collection of a European resident. All very puzzling. How come on 1909 photo with UK registration which is still carried in 2007?

Regards

Vintman

[Vintman]

One of our very wise sages thinks the car in the background of the Dover picture could be an Argyll, a Scottish make. They had chunky bonnets and rads from about 1904.

Regards

Vintman

[Dave Mellor NJ]

There's a guy who comes on these forums occasionally looking for anything Argyll. I found this picture of a 1913 model and he appreciated it tremendously.

[Vintman]

Hi, Not the same car in London as in Dover. Done a bit of digging! The London car can be seen on another photo sporting registration LN 5500 which is London County Council cca Jan 1909 and which is still arround, being a 1908 Napier Type 23A 45 HP. The Type 23A was introduced near the close of 1908 and this one appears one of the earliest. Sold at Christies 2007 Auction of 'Exceptional Motor Cars at the Monterey Jet Center' for $682,000. They say it was believed to have been directly exported to the United States. In the 1960s the car returned to England and into the collection of a European resident. All very puzzling. How come on 1909 photo with UK registration which is still carried in 2007?

</SPAN>

Since posting above comments my colleagues have done a large amount of digging and have answered part of my question about the Bleriot car in London. I was wondering if this was the same car? Although it is registered as LN 5500 it is not the car that carries the registration NOW. NOW it is indeed a 1908 Napier Type 23A 45 HP. Relating to the photo, the following is an amalgam of a number of comments received from our contributors:

</SPAN>Can confirm the Bleriot picture was used in Autocar Vol.23 p.165 (31st July 1909), and was described as Bleriot leaving Victoria Station. He received the 'Daily Mail' prize for his channel crossing from Lord Northcliffe, who is also seated in the back wearing the topper. Could be that the Mercedes car was Northcliff'e own; he was certainly a Mercedes advocate. The registration number 'LB 5500' is a London issue of about September/October 1908, but these records no longer survive. The rads are definitely different but generally of the correct pattern for Merc & Napier of the period. There are other differences too in the two photos - the </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>track rod is forward of the axle, dumbirons are entirely different and steering wheel don’t match, also </SPAN>the wings, the bodywork, the side brake, the windscreen etc are all different. </SPAN>The radiator shapes listed in Scott-Moncrieff's book for 1909 cars shows that the Bleriot shape is Merc, ditto Autocar 22 March 1913 shows a continuation of that design for Merc. </SPAN>Referring to some old notes it has now been found that the LB 5500 number was allocated to the Napier some time after it was returned back to the UK from the States, so post 1970."

Does not answer how it got the Merc registration, but the re-use of 'cherished numbers' has been the case from the beginning. Perhaps more to follow??

Regards

Vintman (UK)

[Argyll]

There's a guy who comes on these forums occasionally looking for anything Argyll. I found this picture of a 1913 model and he appreciated it tremendously.

Could very well be a 1904 Argyll, but I'm leaning more towards a 1906/7.

However as previously mentioned the picture is very pixelated when blown up, so I can't be certain and couldn't really fault the previous suggestion.