1907 Hupmobile Runabout

[tomwallace]

I found a car on Ebay that was called 1907 Hupmobile Runabout. The car appears complete and I'm told it ran when it was placed in a small town car museum about 30 years ago.

The seller says it won an AACA event in Hershey a long time ago (?1980's). He said it is a 1907 Hupmobile Runabout. He said he was told it's a 1907 because it has an "BREEZE" brand carb mounted on the engine.

I saw the car and it really looks in excellent shape and it would take just a little fuel system clean-up to get it started.

But all that I read on Hupmobiles on the web says the first production year is 1909.

So what is the real story on this car? Does the seller just have the wrong info and this is a 1909?

Is there any good references on Hupmobiles?

Thanks

Tom Wallace, Dayton, OH

Edited October 30, 2012 by tomwallace (see edit history)

[Layden B]

Typical of 1909 thru 1912 Hupmobile Model 20, not a lot of difference in those years but perhaps a real expert can find details to date it. I think most if not all used a Breeze carburetor.

Very common for cars to be back dated.

[Chris Paulsen]

Layden is exactly right.

My father and I had a 1911 that had its original Breeze carburetor, so not an early feature.

I believe the one pictured is a 1910 or early 1911, but knowing the serial number would tell for sure.

Chris

[trimacar]

That is correct, it appears to be a 1910. 1909 (the first year) had a differently shaped gas tank. 1911 had longer running boards, doors, and high headlights. A few early 1911's may have been the style shown in pictures.

Serial numbers to about 1500 are 1909. 1500 to about 7000 are 1910, and 1911 from there on.

The Breeze carb is correct, and more rare than the cars themselves. Many were converted to Model T carbs, since the Breeze is a little tricky to adjust correctly.

This car appears to have all the correct parts, although the colors of body and engine are wrong.

These are fun little cars, 35-45 mph and lively except going up hills.....two speeds forward, the gear box really needed a middle gear....

[tomwallace]

Thanks for all the responses!

We did find the serial number for the car; #4250. That makes it a 1910.

Now we have to get all the paperwork corrected and soon it will be mine!

Tom Wallace, Dayton, OH

My cars:

1911 Cadillac Model 30 Touring Car

1936 Buick Century 61 Four Door sedan

1939 Cadillac 61 Convertible Sedan

1936 Daimler Straight Eight 4.5 Litre Limousine

[trimacar]

Let me know when you get it home, send me your email address and I'll send you an electronic copy of the Breeze carb manual....it's 32 pages long, just for the carb!!!! To start, I flood the carb manually, and adjust the turn knob to a rich mixture, once started you adjust until car runs smoothly.

It should have a fixed timing magneto on it, Bosch DU-4, which works fine, don't let anyone talk you into changing to a variable timing model.

Make sure that the oiling system (drips from tank on driver, right, side of engine) is clean and adjusted properly. There are two drains on the bottom of the crankcase, each of these should have a standpipe for the correct oil level in engine, drain until no more oil comes out, then add oil to the upper tank (usually each time you drive it).

When driving the car, don't try to do a sudden stop with the engine still engaged through clutch, the flywheel is at the front of the engine and you can snap a crankshaft.

Transmission very simple, but the bushings in the back end of the tranny can get worn and make shifting difficult.

The spider gears in my differential got damaged, a Model T cluster is an almost exact replacement.

Any questions don't hesitate to contact me, I've owned mine for 35 years and very familiar with the Model 20..........

[tomwallace]

I'll let you know when I get the car.

I guess I should also join the Hupmobile club.

I can't wait!!

Tom

[KenHupp20]

I'm curious about the brass ( ?) rod that goes from the dash to a crank arm located on the intake manifold . Is this a spark timing control ?

Nice looking car, please join the club ,and keep us posted here as well

Ken

[tomwallace]

I visited the Hupmobile Club site on Hemmings. Under the model info section, it stated where to look for the engine number, and car serial number. My car did not have a Hupmobile dash tag. The car serial number was found stamped on the frame cross member under the floorboard; #4763. The engine number was stamped in the engine/trans flange; #4739.

The radiator has a manufacturer number that I mistook for the car number, "McCord Manufacturing No. 4250".

My car also has a selden tag on the firewall. There is a stamped number 259604 on the tag. Is there any kind of registry where I can track the cars history with this number?

As I understand, my car was built later in the 1910 Model year.

My next move is to join the Hupmobile Club and get some literature from the club library.

I need to find out correct color combinations and correct accessories.

Any comments appreciated.

Tom Wallace, Dayton, OH

[1910Hupp]

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It should have a fixed timing magneto on it, Bosch DU-4, which works fine, don't let anyone talk you into changing to a variable timing model.

................................................

David I think you are a little late as I supsect the brass rod /bell crank is an advance and retard lever.

I have fitted mine with advance and retard and it transforms the car. The previous owner had advance and retard on it but took it off as he didn't notice an improvement . That was probably due to a magneto that needed rebuilding . The only issue I have at the moment is devising a bell crank system to reduce the sensativity of my lever ie give me more travel at the lever and less at the magneto -Karl

[trimacar]

Hi Karl-- the reason that I say not to change it, or reasons, are cranking damage to one's body, and at the speeds these cars travel, not an issue. My 20 does fine at 40-45 mph, and if changing timing increased that speed, I'd be scared to death! Neat cars, fun to drive with lots of get up and go on level ground, quick steering...and there seem to be lots of them around....dc

[1910Hupp]

Yep great cars just put the magneto back in mine today -Been a bit of a saga over the last few months and don't think it is over yet although the car is running great when I put the magneto back in I noted a lot of wear on the cam gear and even a broken tooth with about 40% loss on one tooth. I have a new cam and crank gear but am not looking forward to the strip down to install them. Karl

[Max BURKE]

We have a 2 spark Sims on our touring with viriable advance firing two spark plugs at the same timing of 3/8 inch advance on the piston.On our roadster we run a Dixi model aero and can put battery current through it to start. With a trembler in the feed it can often be started without cranking.We run variable advance here also. We run the spark plugs over the exhaust valves here as it keeps them cleaner.Both are running the 0riginal Breeze carb.Travelling at about 20 mph overcomes the fan even with the belly tray fitted Edgar Bowen has the only one iv seen that dosent boil on hot day hills but Ed has a modern core with a large header tank. Join the Australian and New Zealand Hupmobile Register and engoy the quatterly mag. Youl be glad you did. Google it for a look.

Max BURKE Nulkaba AUSTRALIA

[tomwallace]

The brass rod from the firewall to that crank arm is a spark timing control that was added. Wasn't this control usually hooked up to the lever on the steering column? It seems to be less user friendly to bend over and reach for the knob instead of using the lever on the steering column.

I also noticed that I do not have an original dash ignition switch. Is the attached photo of a correct switch?

Does anyone reproduce these or perhaps an original to sell?

thanks

Tom Wallace, Dayton, OH

[trimacar]

Yes, that is an original Model 20 ignition switch in the photo. The "key" is the black knob, and it does come out. I have an extra switch that is the same bakelite case, but doesn't have a Hupmobile nameplate, and is set up for Mag-Off-Bat. With a new nameplate, if you could get one made, it would work as just a Mag-Off switch. I'd rather you find an original but if you get to the point that you want to tackle making this one work let me know and I'd probably sell it.

The Model 20 had a fixed timing magneto, so there was no variable spark control on an original car. The lever on the steering column was for gas, used if you're on a hill stopped, and need to add gas before you let the brake off.....

[tomwallace]

Thanks David for your info.

I think I'll take my time and look for an original.

Maybe I'll pop over to the Hershey Swap meet next year and see if I can find one.

Tom Wallace, Dayton, OH

[Max BURKE]

Gday Tom and all. Edgar Bowen had a batch of dash plates for the model C. that is the later 1911 type plate. In our last register he was selling them out @ $20. You have to stamp your car No thereon that is the chassis not the eng no He may have a few kill switch faces left. Email him on bweno@exemail.com.au Edgar is reliable and at last count had collected five model 20.On Ebay buy yourself a BOSCH magneto kill switch Buy the one with a plain face not the Bosch branded unit as it should cost you about 20% of the branded unit and it will be covered by the original switch face. If some kind person will make you a pencil rubbing of the original face then folk who etch out nameplates surley will make one for you.John Burke has a foot control on his dash board to advance and retard. It is easy to use as it moves in an arc. Dont forget to subscribe to the Australian and New Zealand Hupmobile Register Email jhb230@esc.net.au. you will be pleased that you did. Incidently the number on the Selden plate is the Hup license No and tells nothing of the individual car. Max BURKE Nulkaba Australia

[trimacar]

Would love to see you at Hershey, but be forewarned that early Hupp stuff is few and far between at that meet. I found a set of original Model 20 hubcaps, the plain brass style, at Hershey....only took me 18 years of attending, and finding one every three or four years! Good luck with your car, they're fun.....

[Max BURKE]

Gday Tom and all

Hope you have your 20 home . From the pictures it seems to me the fan shroud is missing as is the belly plate. These wont help the car run cooler but they will collect the oil leaks and run them all to the back into one puddle.The pictures show a top of the last style say 1913. The grapic artists diagram in Bill Cuthberts book (a must for Hupmobilists) shows on page 31 the 4 bow layout for your earlier model B. Remember not to park up the Hup with the hand throtle advanced as it will hold the oil box valves open, also when opening the crankcase taps some oil will allways run out. This is the oil held in the standpipes above the taps.These stand 5/8 inch above the level with the tap removed but some have increased them to 3/4 and even to one inch. This creates extra oil leaks especially back into the gearbox.Until you work out your consumption a good plan would be check the level each driving hour.Max BURKE Nulkaba Australia

[tomwallace]

Max, thanks for your comments.

Could you post a couple pictures of the belly pan and shroud so that perhaps I could have them fabricated?

I have seen different styles of tops on Model 20's that I found on the internet. I din't know which style was correct for my car.

I have just found a copy of Cuthbert's book on Amazon.com this morning. I have to wait a couple weeks for delivery.

This spring is the time that I will clean out the fuel system/carb and radiator. I want to go through the engine and add fresh oil. Then check out the tranny, rear end and brakes.

I'm looking forward to driving it around the neighborhood.

Tom Wallace, Dayton, OH

Edited December 19, 2012 by tomwallace (see edit history)

[Guest Edgar Bowen]

This car is a truly delightful Model B, which were manufactured from September 1909 to summer 1911. There were only 500 Model A cars produced March 1909 to August 1909. This particular car, Serial #4250 was probably manufactured in summer 1910.