Guest 37Packard Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 I bought this car in August and the seller did a lot of work to it before he sold it to me. He said the one thing I needed to do was to have the brakes checked because they pull to the right. I've been looking for an old car mechanic in the Louisville area without much success for the last couple of months so I decided to look at the ads in Craigslist. I responded to an ad and the guy sounded halfway intelligent so I took the car to him on Monday. He adjusted the brakes and said that the left front one wasn't working so he suggested that I buy a brake hose because he thought it may be "compressed" so that no brake fluid could get through it. I bought a set of three from Kanter and brought them over to him today. After he replaced it he bled it and he could still turn the wheel even though I was pressing down hard on the brakes so the hose obviously wasn't the problem. His next idea was to look at the brake shoes inside the drum but he couldn't figure out how to remove it. I pulled out the factory shop manual and owner's manual and there was nothing in either book telling how to remove it. He ended up putting the tire back on and I drove it home with the brakes still pulling to the right. I'm going to return the other two hoses to Kanter but I still have the same problem. I found out how to remove the brake drum from a guy on the Packard Club web site so could someone please give me some ideas as to what could be the reason why the left front brake doesn't work? There is no brake fluid leaking anywhere is about the only hint I can give you. Could there be something wrong with the brake shoes? Thanks in advance.... :confused:
CarlLaFong Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 It sounds like the wheel cylinder is seized up. To be honest, if he couldn't figure out how to get a front drum off, I would have some reservations about his mechanical skills. Take off the grease cap, pull the cotter pin, remove the nut and slide the drum and hub off.
Guest 37Packard Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Now we're getting somewhere. What do I need to do to get the wheel cylinder working correctly? Thanks....
Guest Bob Call Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Back to Kanter, or another supplier (check on the Packard forum below) and get a new wheel cylinder or a rebuild kit. If the cylinder is seized it may be rusted and pitted inside that won't clean up with the standard rebuild honeing so you'll need a new cylinder. I wouldn't hurt to replace all of the brake hoses while you are working on the brakes.
Guest 37Packard Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 You must have something locked, up it only takes one side of a of cylinder to create an issue .How do I unlock whatever is locked up?
Guest cben09 Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Look at all the lines,,,,,Just in case one is below the frame and has gottn pinched by jacking,or some other accidental dammage,,Spending some money on brakes is not a bad investment,,,,car or life,,,,Cheers,,Ben
motoringicons Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Go to PackardInfo.com - General Site News - New Part Cross Reference Database Added - Packard Articles This website has original owner's manuals you can download. I know they have a 1938 manual on the site which is very similar to a 1937 in terms of mechanical specs. See how the manual recommends adjusting the brakes first-it is different than on a conventional car. See if the problem is first in adjustment and then go from there. The original manual will also give you the schematics for the brake system so you can see what you are dealing with. The 1937 Super 8 Sedan that I had advertised on here for a while did the same as your car is doing and it was just a matter of adjustment.
Guest 37Packard Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 I have an original owner's manual for a 1937 120 series and I also have a factory shop manual. I'll check it out tomorrow. It's been a long day and I have just enough energy left to watch game 2 of the World Series (go Tigers!) and also the NFL game. Thanks....
Guest 37Packard Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 I ordered the brake cylinder today from Max Merritt, who is only 90 miles north of Louisville, so it should be here by Tuesday. I also removed the brake drum and took the attached photo. Is the brake cylinder the small round thing in the upper part of the photo? It doesn't look like the one I ordered from Merritt (second photo). What's my next move? :confused:
Guest WKnighter Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 Remove brake springs with brake spring tool or vise grips. Remove brake line fitting with line wrench. Remove 2 hex-head retaining screws. The back side of your old brake cylinder should look like the second photo.Larry
Pete O Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 Changing out parts without a full and proper diagnosis is a sure way to waste lots of money. Before ordering the wheel cylinder, I would have confirmed for sure that it was stuck. With that drum off, have someone step on the brake to see if the cylinder is operating (i.e., pushing the shoes apart). If that's not happening, then I would have removed the brake hose from the cylinder and had someone step on the brake to see if fluid is running through that line. If it is running, then you have narrowed it down to the cylinder for sure. If there is no fluid running, then the problem is upstream somewhere. Could be a brake line clogged with rust. Could be an apportioning valve (if this model has one in the system).
Guest Len Sholes Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 Another bit of advise for you would be to remove all the brake drums and check all the wheel cylinders. My expierence has been if you have one that is giving you problems the others will also be contaminated and are not working efficiently. I would also reccommend to replace all three flex lines. That is the two that go to the front wheel cylinders and the one that is by the rear end. You should also remove the master cylinder and check it out. You might be lucky enough to only having to clean it, hone it out and install a new rebuild kit. At this time make sure you flush out the steel brake lines. Be carefull when doing this as you do not want to get brake fluid on your paint as it works like paint remover. To me brakes are one of the most important parts of a car and any money spent is well spent. Not only are you protecting your self but also other innocent people and their vehicles on the highway. Good luck to you.
Guest 37Packard Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 Remove brake springs with brake spring tool or vise grips. Remove brake line fitting with line wrench. Remove 2 hex-head retaining screws. The back side of your old brake cylinder should look like the second photo.LarryI don't have a "brake spring tool" but I do have vise grips. What is a brake line fitting and a line wrench? Is there a way to remove the tension on the springs to make them easier to remove? Thanks for the response....
old car fan Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 It may be a way to waste money,but if has been sitting,money well spent.Brakes are a great thing.That is the first thing that should happen.
Guest 37Packard Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 Another bit of advise for you would be to remove all the brake drums and check all the wheel cylinders. My expierence has been if you have one that is giving you problems the others will also be contaminated and are not working efficiently. I would also reccommend to replace all three flex lines. That is the two that go to the front wheel cylinders and the one that is by the rear end. You should also remove the master cylinder and check it out. You might be lucky enough to only having to clean it, hone it out and install a new rebuild kit. At this time make sure you flush out the steel brake lines. Be carefull when doing this as you do not want to get brake fluid on your paint as it works like paint remover. To me brakes are one of the most important parts of a car and any money spent is well spent. Not only are you protecting your self but also other innocent people and their vehicles on the highway. Good luck to you.The mechanic I found on Craigslist replaced the left front brake hose yesterday and that wasn't the problem. I mailed the other two back to Kanter today since he said I didn't need to replace them. I have never removed a master cylinder before and am not comfortable taking things apart that I may not be able to put back together. Several years ago my cousin completely disassembled his '65 Mustang and then it sat in his garage for 15 years because he didn't know how to put it back together. I don't want to make that same mistake. Thanks for the reply....
Guest 37Packard Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 Changing out parts without a full and proper diagnosis is a sure way to waste lots of money. Before ordering the wheel cylinder, I would have confirmed for sure that it was stuck. With that drum off, have someone step on the brake to see if the cylinder is operating (i.e., pushing the shoes apart). If that's not happening, then I would have removed the brake hose from the cylinder and had someone step on the brake to see if fluid is running through that line. If it is running, then you have narrowed it down to the cylinder for sure. If there is no fluid running, then the problem is upstream somewhere. Could be a brake line clogged with rust. Could be an apportioning valve (if this model has one in the system).When my wife gets home in a couple of hours I'll try that. Hopefully it is the brake cylinder since I ordered one today. I'll let you know what happens later tonight. Thanks for the reply....
Guest Len Sholes Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 With regards to your question about what is a brake line wrench it is like a box end one that has a slot in it so it can be slipped over the line giving you a better grip on the brake line fitting. Even with this wrench you can run into problems with it slipping on the nut. When this happens you have no choice but to use vise grips and if you are lucky and you do not damage the nut, If you do then you will need to either purchase a new brake line or make up a new one. There is nothing easy in the old car hobby. If you get a good quallity brake spring plier then it can be used for removing the springs and reinstalling them. The two clips that hold the shoes to the backing plates can be removed using a pair of pliers. There is a tool you can purchase for this job. If you end up removing the rear brake drums you will need a puller to pull the drums. As it sounds to me you do not have much expierence working on this sort of job and am wondering if you have tried to contact anyone in your area who is envolved in a local car club. I am sure if you do you will be able to find someone who could either give you a name of a shop that could do the job for you or an individual who could assist you. It is unfortunate that the fellow you found on the net didn`t know what he was doing. Brakes are one of the basic things you are taught when a person starts his apprenticeship. once again good luck to you.
Guest 37Packard Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 With regards to your question about what is a brake line wrench it is like a box end one that has a slot in it so it can be slipped over the line giving you a better grip on the brake line fitting. Even with this wrench you can run into problems with it slipping on the nut. When this happens you have no choice but to use vise grips and if you are lucky and you do not damage the nut, If you do then you will need to either purchase a new brake line or make up a new one. There is nothing easy in the old car hobby. If you get a good quallity brake spring plier then it can be used for removing the springs and reinstalling them. The two clips that hold the shoes to the backing plates can be removed using a pair of pliers. There is a tool you can purchase for this job. If you end up removing the rear brake drums you will need a puller to pull the drums. As it sounds to me you do not have much expierence working on this sort of job and am wondering if you have tried to contact anyone in your area who is envolved in a local car club. I am sure if you do you will be able to find someone who could either give you a name of a shop that could do the job for you or an individual who could assist you. It is unfortunate that the fellow you found on the net didn`t know what he was doing. Brakes are one of the basic things you are taught when a person starts his apprenticeship. once again good luck to you.When I joined the Packard Club I was given a list of all the other members. I emailed 12 in my area and heard back from three. Only one was interested in getting together so I drove the Packard about 10 miles to his house. He took out all the spark plugs, checked the gap, and put them back in. He took the car for a drive and commented on the brakes needing to be adjusted but he had no interest in looking at them. He recommended a shop near his house. When I looked up the phone number on Whitepages.com I saw three reviews of the place which were all negative. I then looked up the shop on the BBB web site and saw that there were at least 8 additional people who had a problem with them in the last 3 years so I decided not to take the car there. When I have my wife push down on the brake pedal what am I supposed to look for? I just tried pushing on the pedal with a 2x4 that's about 8 feet long but I didn't see anything moving....
CarlLaFong Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 The brake shoes should move outward. Don't push the pedal all the way to the floor. If the cylinder is OK and you push too far, with the drum off, the pistons may fall out and then you'll have to reassemble it. No big deal, but a PITA
Guest 37Packard Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 OK. While I was waiting for my wife to get home I got the correct wrench for the brake line going into the back of the drum (5/8") and I accidentally loosened it a little before I tightened it up again. When she got home and pressed down on the pedal the shoe on the right moved and some brake fluid came out the right side of the cylinder. I replaced the rubber cup and the leaking stopped. She said the pedal went all the way to the floor the first time and then it came back up after she pumped it a couple of times. So since the fluid is going all the way to the cylinder does that mean the cylinder is bad as "Pete O" suggested? If so it looks like I'm on the right track this time. Would it be a better idea for me to remove the old cylinder tomorrow or wait until next week when the new one arrives? Will I have to bleed them after I install the new cylinder? If so I'm going to need more advice since I've never done that before. Thanks to everyone who offered advice so far....
Guest Bob Call Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 First check the brake fluid level in the master cylinder. Check your shop manual for the location of the master cylinder and the proper fluid level. Add fluid if needed. With the brake drum removed have your wife to slowly push the brake pedal while you watch the brake wheel cylinder. If it is working you will see the upper end of the brake shoes move apart and away from the wheel cylinder. If this happens, then the shoes need adjusting. If there is no movement, then using the line wrench loosen the brake line fitting at the back side of the wheel cylinder. It doesn't have to be completely removed from the wheel cylinder just loosened a couple of turns. Have her to again push the brake pedal while you watch the fitting at the back of the cylinder for brake fluid to leak out. If fluid leaks out the wheel cylinder is seized and will need to be replaced or rebuilt. If no fluid leaks out either the hose or the steel line coming from the master cylinder is blocked. In this latter case remove the hose and push the brake pedal again while watching the end of the steel line. If fluid comes out the hose is the problem. If no fluid comes out the problem is in the steel line. Check the line for dents that may have sealed it. If no dents, keep working toward the master cylinder by disconnecting that line from the junction block where it and the right wheel line are split off from the line from the master cylinder and/or rear wheel line. Since the other wheels are working the problem should not be beyond the junction. If you don't find the problem doing this, get back on here and we'll try to further diagnose the problem.If you are going to have an old car to drive and tinker on, get tools. DON"T skimp on tools. Good quality tools last a lifetime. Chinese stuff like Harbor Freight are a waste of money. I prefer Sears Craftsman because I worked at Sears decades ago and they had, may still have, a no questions asked lifetime warranty on Craftsman brand hand tools. Break one and they replace it no questions asked. In over 50 years I have broken and replaced one socket. Get a brake spring tool. They look like a funny pliers but make removing and replacing brake springs a breeze. There is a tool to remove and install the pins and disks the hold the brake shoes to the backing plate. Looks like a screwdriver with a quarter sized cup on the end. A cheap tool and easier to use than pliers. Get a brake adjusting tool also, sometimes called a brake spoon, to adjust the brake shoes after replacing the brake drums, to loosen shoes to remove worn drums, and for regular maintenance of the brakes. Also get a good tire pressure guage, the long metal one that looks like a writing pen. Keep it in the car and keep your tires properly inflated to get maximum tire life.
Guest cben09 Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 Heads up,,,,,Does the hand brake work o-k,,???,,,,,AND is the car O-K to be on the spot its on,,while this gets fixedI once had wheels fixed and it took LOTS longer than planned and the car blocked in other stuff,,Ben
Guest 37Packard Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 I have a full set of Craftsman wrenches and sockets in both metric and American sizes. The brake hose was just replaced yesterday with a new one from Kanter. I just topped off the master cylinder yesterday and it's still full. Tomorrow I'll go to Advance Auto and get a brake spring tool, a brake spoon, and a "tool to remove pins and discs that hold the brake shoes to the backing plate." (Does anyone know what the correct name is for this tool?) Thanks for the help....
Guest 37Packard Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 The hand/parking/emergency brake works fine and the car is backed into my garage. Thanks....
Guest Bob Call Posted October 27, 2012 Posted October 27, 2012 If you are getting brake fluid out of the rubber dust cover on one side of the wheel cylinder, the rubber cups inside are leaking. Since only one side moved the other side is stuck. The wheel cylinder either need rebuilding or replacing. DON'T DRIVE the car until the brakes are repaired. If this cylinder leaks enought you will not have and stopping power.I don't know the correct name of the tool to remove and install the little disks but the guy at the parts store should know what you mean when you describe it.
Guest Bob Call Posted October 27, 2012 Posted October 27, 2012 If you are getting brake fluid out of the rubber dust cover on one side of the wheel cylinder, the rubber cups inside are leaking. Since only one side moved the other side is stuck. The wheel cylinder either need rebuilding or replacing. DON'T DRIVE the car until the brakes are repaired. If this cylinder leaks enought you will not have and stopping power.I don't know the correct name of the tool to remove and install the little disks but the guy at the parts store should know what you mean when you describe it.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
Guest 37Packard Posted October 27, 2012 Posted October 27, 2012 Like I said earlier, I ordered a new wheel cylinder today and it should be here on Tuesday. The brake drum is off and won't be put back on until the new wheel cylinder is on it.My local Advance Auto Parts store employs mostly young people including a couple of women so I hope you're right about them knowing what the tool is. Thanks again for your help....
Guest cben09 Posted October 27, 2012 Posted October 27, 2012 Ask if they have a tool catalogue,,,,Ben
Guest 37Packard Posted October 27, 2012 Posted October 27, 2012 (edited) Ask if they have a tool catalogue,,,,BenI'm not sure how I'm supposed to buy something if I don't know what it's called and I don't know what it looks like. Does anyone know the correct name of a "tool to remove pins and discs that hold the brake shoes to the backing plate?" When I find out what it's called I'll go over there and buy all three tools. Thanks.... Edited October 27, 2012 by 37Packard (see edit history)
CarlLaFong Posted October 27, 2012 Posted October 27, 2012 I have done many, many brake jobs on older cars. I have never owned one of those little tools to remove the hold down springs. Reach behind the backing plate and hold the pin to keep it from moving. Push on the hold down spring washer with your thumb and give it a quarter turn. it will fall off. Grab the shoes at the bottom and pull them away from the pivot pins and towards you at the same time. They should now be all loosey goosey and you can wiggle them off of the wheel cylinders, springs and all. You can use brake pliers to re assemble the springs, but an old long screwdriver or a piece of steel tubing will work just fine. You don't really need to invest in a bunch of tools that you may never use again to do a brake job
Guest 37Packard Posted October 27, 2012 Posted October 27, 2012 You don't really need to invest in a bunch of tools that you may never use again to do a brake job"If you are going to have an old car to drive and tinker on, get tools. DON"T skimp on tools."One guy says buy more tools and another guy says don't. I agree that buying tools that I'm probably only going to use once seems like a waste of money, but I would like this job to go as smoothly as possible and having the right tools may make it easier. Replacing a wheel cylinder may seem like an easy job to some of you but when you've never done it before it seems pretty complicated. What is a backing plate, a spring washer, a pivot pin, and brake pliers? I have regular pliers, needle nose pliers, channel locks and vise grips. Are any of them similar to brake pliers? I watched a couple of videos on YouTube showing how to replace a wheel cylinder on a VW and another on a Chevy Cavalier but I couldn't find one for a Packard. Has anyone figured out what is the name of the mystery tool that I asked about in my previous post? I'm sorry about all the questions....
Guest cben09 Posted October 27, 2012 Posted October 27, 2012 For finding general info on this system,,try looking for servace book for,,,"""1946--1954 Chevy 1/2 ton,,3/4 ton pickupWhat you have is a single master , one pressure system without any power assist,,Remember also that any leak will affect the whole system,,Modern systems have 2 master pumps ,,and a failure affects half of the system,,so you still have brakes,,The tool catalogue will probably have all the clutch tools on one page,,,the brake tools on another,,I never bought one of those twistie washer things so I dont know its nameBUT I seem to recall IGN pliers,,super good and handy,,,Snap-On #103 or #107 I bought 3 pr in 1963All for now,,,Ben
CarlLaFong Posted October 28, 2012 Posted October 28, 2012 OK. You've been given the names of the tools and the parts. The little springs are hold down springs, the twisty washer thing is a hold down spring washer, a pivot pin is, just as the name suggests, the pin that the shoes pivot on. Brake pliers are called, ironically enough "brake pliers". This is a simple job that you are turning into brain surgery. There are diagrams and picture of drum brake assemblies on the web. Google is your friend. They don't have to be Packard specific as they are all pretty generic. The only special tools you may want are line wrenches, Brake pliers and the hold down washer remover. Line wrenches are the most important. The other two, not so much. You are dealing with, at most, a dozen parts per side. Don't overthink the job. It is really quite simple, taken one step at a time
Guest 37Packard Posted October 28, 2012 Posted October 28, 2012 (edited) When I remove the brake line from the drum how do I keep all the fluid from running out of it? I'm going to try to remove the brake cylinder tomorrow morning after I pick up the brake pliers and brake spring tool at Advance Auto. Thanks again.... Edited October 28, 2012 by 37Packard (see edit history)
Guest 37Packard Posted October 28, 2012 Posted October 28, 2012 I went to the Advance Auto web site and found brake pliers and a brake spring tool. I'll buy them tomorrow and then let you guys know what happens....
Alfre Posted October 28, 2012 Posted October 28, 2012 You only need the pliers they have the brake spring tool built into the handle. the disk tool looks like a tapered tube with a screw driver handle and makes disk removal a snap.Al
CarlLaFong Posted October 28, 2012 Posted October 28, 2012 When I remove the brake line from the drum how do I keep all the fluid from running out of it? I'm going to try to remove the brake cylinder tomorrow morning after I pick up the brake pliers and brake spring tool at Advance Auto. Thanks again....Stick something in the line. They make little plugs for that exact thing. I usually just whittle a wooden plug and jam it in the line. It may seep a bit, but you won't loose much fluid
Guest 37Packard Posted October 28, 2012 Posted October 28, 2012 You only need the pliers they have the brake spring tool built into the handle. the disk tool looks like a tapered tube with a screw driver handle and makes disk removal a snap.AlThanks for the tip on the pliers. I couldn't find anything on their site under brake disc/disk tool that looks like what you described....
Guest 37Packard Posted October 28, 2012 Posted October 28, 2012 Stick something in the line. They make little plugs for that exact thing. I usually just whittle a wooden plug and jam it in the line. It may seep a bit, but you won't loose much fluidOK. I'll just jam something in there....
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