Claying a 1933 90

[Guest outlaw car man]

Hey all,

Just " clayed " my 1933 90, took about a day & a half. Don't know you ever tried claying a car, but it takes all the little grime and fallout stuff out of the paint.clearcoat. I've done it for years, HOWEVER if you have a large sized Buick, it will take some time, a LOT of time.

Car looks great.

OK, Marvel time. ( this is for Mike in Colorado ) I've been bragging like hell how great my 33 Marvel has been running most of this year-

After I got done claying it and waxing here and there, I fired it up for a round the area show-off run. Cars is sputtering, farting, back-firing unless I hold 3/4 choke- UGH. I know what this means, maybe THIS time I'll try it with a blindfold on and see if I can do it under 15 minutes.

Gee, I wonder if the low speed jet is plugged..............................................gives me something to do I guess. Thought my blue Stabil was the gift from the Gods, maybe from the other guy down under- WAY under, not you Grant-

Sandy

[FLYER15015]

Hi Sandy,

I clay barred the "Baby" This Spring, to get ready for the "Show season" and now she needs it again. Must have been that tree I parked under @ the Abby in Canon City.

We have one more display to do here in Buena Vista. Airport Community Day on Oct 27th. Bringing in a "bunch" of antique aircraft for the day including a P-51 Mustang, giving the kids rides under the "young eagles" EAA program, and trotting out the old cars from anyone within driving distance. Pancakes in the hanger @ 08:00 and a chili lunch. NO CHARGE to attend...... Be nice to have a '33 LTD next to mine. Hint hint....

Marvel question...Isn't there some kind of filter you can install/hide to stop plugging jets ? Or is it dried up old gas from sitting ?

Maybe you should just rebuild a spare carb, and swap them out when you want to take a drive.

Mike in Colorado

PS How do you like my new avatar ??

Edited October 15, 2012 by FLYER15015 (see edit history)

[Guest outlaw car man]

Nice- Don't want to do any " cross the County lines " battle with you and the Thompson. P-51 rides, nice. Don't think density altitudes will be much of a problem in this cool weather, Mustang wouldn't care anyway.

Mine is not called a LTD, just a 90 in the old days- Bring baby down the mountain someday, give it good workout to the Fort.

Give me a day in the Marvel first !

Nice photo, BTW.

Sandy

[Guest Shoe1932]

Hey all,

Just " clayed " my 1933 90, took about a day & a half. Don't know you ever tried claying a car, but it takes all the little grime and fallout stuff out of the paint.clearcoat. I've done it for years, HOWEVER if you have a large sized Buick, it will take some time, a LOT of time.

Car looks great.

OK, Marvel time. ( this is for Mike in Colorado ) I've been bragging like hell how great my 33 Marvel has been running most of this year-

After I got done claying it and waxing here and there, I fired it up for a round the area show-off run. Cars is sputtering, farting, back-firing unless I hold 3/4 choke- UGH. I know what this means, maybe THIS time I'll try it with a blindfold on and see if I can do it under 15 minutes.

Gee, I wonder if the low speed jet is plugged..............................................gives me something to do I guess. Thought my blue Stabil was the gift from the Gods, maybe from the other guy down under- WAY under, not you Grant-

Sandy

Sandy,

Shoe here. Just had the same thing happen to me on my '32 Buick 67. Went to start it up after sitting 3 weeks to take some friends for a spin and it was starving for gas and I thought it wouldn't make it back up the street. Please tell me that you are not talking about taking off the carburator!! I just rebuilt it 5 months ago. She has been running like a dream since. We took our Plymouth to Canyon, TX to show it at the AACA National meet and did not get to drive the Buick for a while. Any advice is greatly welcomed.

[Guest outlaw car man]

That is correct, taking the carb off the car. I've done it probably 60 times. There has been a looooooooooooooooong discussion on the Marvel carb, vodka gas etc., etc.

What happens, I'm talking 1933 Marvel now, the low speed jet has a concave head on it. As gas sits " in " it, it turns to gum and clogs the jet with tiny hole.

Car backfires, misses, rough running. I can get them going only with considerable choke and high RPMS.

Same as you, the car been sitting idle for sometime as I was working on another car. Also seasons are turning here in Colorado, getting some 30 degree at night and up to 80s sometimes during the day, this probably has some effect to it also. Normally I point my finger at the high temps here, causing evaporation in the vodka gas we are so lucky to have here. Even tho it screws up cars and farms etc., we are saving the lives of a lot of ground worms.

Unhook air filter, foot-feed, hand throttle. Remove the three bolts from carb and drop. Drain carb. Look inside the top of the carb to heat riser connection at the jets.

If you see brownish stuff, remove bowl ( don't touch the float or mess with it if the car has been running good and you see the gum buildup) . Revome jets carefully as not to break the little black gaskets. Clean with a carb cleaner with the red tube that comes with the can. Replace.

I don't use new gasket sets everytime, 35 bucks or so a hit ! I will dab on Gasket cement #2 with a toothpick. Reessemble.

This is for dirty jets- If you aren't getting anything, check to see if you are getting gas to the carb, unhook and crank into a bucket or something-

I bet the jets are plugged-

Again, I'm talking 33 Marvel here. Bob, or one of those 32 boys might have another idea-

Good luck, keep us posted .

Bottom line cure id drive it more.

Sandy

[Guest outlaw car man]

Took the Marvel off today ( yawn) as expected, both LS jets were completely gummed over. blah, blah blah. Cleaned, reinstalled, fire it up this weekend, no reason to test, it will be 100%.

It's really not a big deal, this was 1933, imagine changing a tire on the side of the road etc. I can do the entire Marvel, start to finish, in under an hour.

Got like 6-8 months on the last time.

Sandy

[FLYER15015]

Hey Sandy,

I just had an idea. Have you ever considered putting a petcock at the fuel inlet to the carb, and after driving her, lift the hood, shut the petcock, and running her dry in the garage. With the door open of course.

That's what they do to shut down a jet engine. Just shut off the fuel, for a different reason of course. You would not want the hot side blades to wilt.

In your case, would the engine run itself out of gas in the problem area ? Might be worth a try, since your carb is down low, and you may be getting "drainage" from the line, which turns to goo.

Just my $ .02....... and worth every penny.........

Mike in Colorado

[JoelsBuicks]

Sandy, I'm going to give you my suspicion and opinion. Your problem sounds familar to something I've dealt with but on a very grand scale. Ethanol in gasoline, even at just 10% drastically changes the solvent characteristics of gasoline, I'll come back to that. Over time, old systems that once handled 100% gasoline became coated with a varnish like material, the fuel industry calls this gums. Simply, gums are polymers formed through the oxidation of certain chemicals that make up gasoline. This used to be a much bigger problem than it is today because now, almost all of the gasoline goes through at least one additional refining step which occurs at high temperature and high pressure. Additionally, this step uses hydrogen to saturate (coincidentally) those gasoline components that were unstable and quick to form gums. The ethanol in gasoline will now dissolve those old gums in those old systems and whenever this gum laden gasohol is left to evaporate, the gums are left behind because they do not evaporate. If I'm correct then I suppose that a thorough solvent cleaning of your tank, lines, and pump should remedy this. Or, just avoid the ethanol. Imagine running gasohol through a 1000 mile pipeline that has been in service 60 years and you will see the grand scale that I'm talking about.

[Guest outlaw car man]

Hi Joel, Mike

Yes, been down that road. I used Seafoam in the green 90 I had, which cleaned out a lot of built up gum and left it in the low speed jets. It finally worked thru.

The black 90 I'm running, never usually had that much of a problem and I've burned thru probably 2 tanks this summer, but I certainly understand where you are going with this. Yes, the ethanol is supposed to clean the systems, and it does leaving any resadue in the carbs. I'm not in a position to remove the fuel system on the 90, clean and reinstall. I'm guessing something broke loose or such back there and has caused the issue. I've in the past soaked the 6 posts & jets in pure fresh gasoline which does not remove the gum unless I scrub it. My thoughts were if I can get the car running, which I can with choke, the vodka gas should run through the system and clean the tips or jets, which it does not.

Really think the design of the concave low speed jets is a bottom line issue in the Marvel design. I've actually just removed and cleaned these only ( on the green 90 )

and car runs fine. Normally clean everything of course. If The LS jets were convex , I think this would solve everything. ( think ) ?

Both Mark & Mike have brought up the idea of a shut off, pre carb, and run the car out of gas. I'm not 100 sure this would work. The engine would run the car out of gas, but the little " cups " on the end of the LS jets, would hold a couple drops of gas, evaporate and gum.

At this point , if I can get 3 months driving out of the car before removing the Marvel, I can handle that. If the gum is coming from the car internally, it has to finally burn through. My gut says the system is fairly clean, FAIRLY. I'm hoping this is an isolated case.

That's my $10.00 worth-

Thanks for the comments

Sandy

[bubba]

Don't think that I am too off the wall but what if you do have a cut off petcock like I do in my 25 Buick and after that have a "Y" pipe with a cap on one side of the "Y" facing up that can be unscrewed. This way you can cut off the gas source from the tank. let the engine use up the gas and then open the pipe and put in some gumout , Marvel mystery or what ever you like. You could also just unscrew the line to the carb every time and put the cleaner down that way. I'm going to do this in my vacuum tank and carb which is "varnish central" at this time.

[Guest outlaw car man]

Was thinking of something like that, but more of a fex type tube that could be inserted in the air cleaner opening and hitting the top of the LS jet. I have a spare rebuilt Marvel I could experiment with, hate to cut up nice original stuff, you know.

[FLYER15015]

Sandy,

This might be a dumb question, but why are the LS jets "cupped" and thus holding fuel.

Could you not file them flat ?

Pictures posted here will save me gas $$$$ driving up to the Fort. Even though it was ONLY $3.48/gal in Connifer today.

Mike in Colorado

[Guest Shoe1932]

Hey all, used some Seafoam (as was mentioned previously) and ran it through for about an hour yesterday and it seems to have solved much of the problem. It is definitely running better than it was a week ago. I will take it out for a test drive (out of the neighborhood) this weekend to try to blow out any other remaining gum. If it is still running poorly I will be following Sandy's advice and will be pulling the carb! If she runs well Iwill take a photo and post it.

Wish me luck

[Guest outlaw car man]

Sandy,

This might be a dumb question, but why are the LS jets "cupped" and thus holding fuel.

Could you not file them flat ?

Pictures posted here will save me gas $$$$ driving up to the Fort. Even though it was ONLY $3.48/gal in Connifer today.

Mike in Colorado

Hi Mike, I have no idea why the low speed jets are concave, just how they were designed ? If I had a whole box full of 1933 Marvel low speed jets, I'd try that. I have 4 only. Also if they were ground down flat , it could go thru the brass and ruin them, ending up with a brass tube with a open end ( no tiny hole ) . In your mind's eye, imagine a brass tube with a concave end. As you start grinding, you are grinding away the sides of the concave feature till it goes flat.

In 1933, it probably wasn't an issue, complete new car and nobody was mixing in 15% vodka ( prohibition) in the gas.

[Guest outlaw car man]

Hey all, used some Seafoam (as was mentioned previously) and ran it through for about an hour yesterday and it seems to have solved much of the problem. It is definitely running better than it was a week ago. I will take it out for a test drive (out of the neighborhood) this weekend to try to blow out any other remaining gum. If it is still running poorly I will be following Sandy's advice and will be pulling the carb! If she runs well Iwill take a photo and post it.

Wish me luck

Looking in my Marvel parts list for 1932 50-90, it appears you have basically the same setup as my 33 90- low speed jet, ( nozzle) Int and high speed standpipe with jet tip)

Mark Shaw has a good description of the workings of the Marvels and problems that's been posted here a bunch, might do a search and read. My problem is the LS jet or nozzle as it's called. The standpipes can crack, really have to look CLOSE. My spare Marvel had that problem. I sweated the tip ( jet) on like a plumber sweating pipes, then made sure it was clear of solder- Works.

If you do pull the carb, you'll know right away if the LS jet is plugged.

Don't forget the heat riser too. Can cause a lot of the same type symptoms , loss of power as the carb is starved. That's yet another issue.

I only know this as I've been forced to learn it- 1933 Marvel is a four letter word when talking Buicks. I've never messed with 32 stuff, just what's in my Marvel book.

Like to hear what happens when you get the car up to speed, 30-40 whatever.

Keep us posted.

[Guest Shoe1932]

Hey guys

Took the 32 out for a long spin yesterday and it ran pretty well. A whole lot better than before I put the Seafoam in the tank. Had a little hesitation a few times but I got it up to 45 mph and it ran fine. Did notice a squeaking at the engine. I need to lube everything. It sounded like it was coming from the fan area. I didn't have time to look carefully but I want to know if anyone has any words of advice about possible reasons for the noise. I assume it needs lubed. Is there a grease fitting at the fan? Should probably get out the shop manual and look. Don't think I will be driving it until I have a chance to look at it again and figure out the problem. Good news about the car running smoother. Thanks for the advice about Seafoam.

[FLYER15015]

Hey Sandy,

I had another idea.

Instead of grinding the LS jet flat, what if you just filed a notch in one side, to let the left over gas drain out, instead of sitting in the "bowl" and evaporating down to GOO.

If you could post pic's of a stock jet and your plumber's modification it would help.

Also I have a crackerjack machine shop down in Frederick that is making a LOT of model A Ford parts, and they may be able to make you some spare jets.

Mike in Colorado

[Guest outlaw car man]

Hi Mike-

I don't know how hollow the thing is, I'd be concerned that if you start cutting into it, it might open up immediately into the nozzle tube. At this point, unless I have one to expeeriment with, I could completely shut down the car until I find another one for a 33 Marvel.

This a good idea tho. I have a couple rusted out shells, maybe 32 I could look into.

Let me get some pictures to explain- right now it's running fine again. ???? Be back to ya-

Sandy

[Guest outlaw car man]

Here is the the 1933 Marvel. I took my spare set of nozzles, standpipes and jets and set them in a 32 base for illustration ( left )

The other is my spare 33 Marvel.

You can see the low speed nozzels ( short ones in the rear) with the concave tops- This is what gums up, the gas sits in there and turns to gum that plugs up the holes. The intermediate and high speed jet tips, as you can see, are pointed and don't seem to give problems.

The other two photos are the 33 Marvel looking straight down the top from where it hooks to the heat riser. Looking at the tops of the LS jets/nozzles. You can see the concave tops.

Mike, as you can see if I cut into the LS jet, it might open up immediately on the side where the cut is. My new thing is seeing if there is a easy way to lower the carb, with the three bolts , enough , to use a carb cleaner spray, without taking the whole thing off. I can;'t from the air cleaner side because of the Air Valve.

It's hard to see, but the HS jets have been " sweated " on the standpipe with solder, as a plumber would do-I don't have them screwed in, just sitting there-

Give you and others an idea what I'm talking about here with the famous 1933 Marvel.

Sandy

.

[FLYER15015]

Sandy,

Now I see...........

Those LS jets are machined from hex brass stock, and would be easy to duplicate !!!!

Is there a number stamped on the side ? If so, it would indicate that they come in various orifice sizes to do some "tuning" just like we do w/ our two stroke bikes to adjust for altitude. I've got a whole set of idle and high speed jets for my KTM 250 EXC, and they are labeled for altitude.

We could make a set or two with and without the "cup", flat topped and ball ended just like the high speed jets shown. Heck we could even make the center hole a bit smaller, to lean her down, or larger to richen her up.

If it seems like the "cup" is needed, we could try a small slice in the side, down just enough to drain off the gas, but not deep enough to effect the orifice.

Then you could patent the idea, and pay me a royalty.

That's assuming nobody else reads this thread...............

Mike in Colorado

[danhar1960]

Time for you blokes to fill me in on "claying". What is this "Claying" you speak of ?

Danny

[Guest Grant Magrath]

Danny, it's using a clay bar to lift impurities trapped in the paint's surface. Pop down to Super Cheap or Repco and check them out. I haven't used clay bars yet, but I hear very good things.

Cheers

Grant

[Guest outlaw car man]

It's really not a bar per se, a chunk of clay ( yes clay) that you break off a piece and flatten it out, as you would a piece of clay ( yes clay ) and with a spray bottle of stuff called speed shine to lube the surface, you rub the flat piece of clay over the car and it picks up all the tiny stuff stuck in the paint.

The car feels baby butt smooth, as advertised. It does make the surface feel like a mirror. I find you do have to go back thru and wax the car.

So, you need a lot of time.

[danhar1960]

My lesson for the day. Never heard or seen it before.

Danny

[FLYER15015]

Danny,

I used Mothers "showtime". Comes in a kit w/ spray wax and a clay bar.

Just spritz on a patch no bigger than 2 ft square, nead the clay bar into a 3"dia pad and rub LIGHTLY round and round, and back and forth.

If the pad "drags" that's not good. Wipe that area down w' an old bath towel, and move on to the next section. Don't let the bit you just fininished dry. It's better to wipe the wax off while it's still wet, flipping the towel over a couple of times.

Does wonders for an old lacquer paint job........

And sets the car up for a great wax job.

Mike in Colorado

[Bob Engle]

Shoe: on the 32 fan lubrication, There is a brass screw in the fan hub. Remove the screw, fill with 30 W oil. turn screw hole to the bottom and allow the excess oil to drip out. Turn back to the top and install the brass screw.

There is a gear pump inside the hub. As the fan blade turns, it pumps oil up into the bushing that the fan spins on. No oil and you'll damage the bushing or lock up the fan blade. The fill hole on the hub is a stand pipe. When you turn it upside down, it drains any excess oil. If you don't drain the excess, it will get forced out around bushing and it will get on the fan belt.

Bob