R.White Posted October 11, 2012 Author Share Posted October 11, 2012 Unfortunately, the mechanism is held together with small rivetted pins and it has to come apart to fit a replacement "c" spring. Easy enough to dismantle but getting it back together properly is a different matter. I expect I will be able to replace the rivetted pins. Somewhere I have a box of suitable small dome head rivets and anvils but at the moment, I can't think where they are. It's not something you need very often!! I have experimented with a light coil spring but it doesn't work. As a last resort, I could make a spring from some brass shim stock; I have a selection of different gauges but how effective or resilient it would be, I don't know. Hopefully something will turn up.Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I don't have the technology to measure that flat spring here, while it's on or off the unit. I estimate the tension @ 3-4 ounces. Ray, if you can't find a small rivet for that linkage if you do dismantle it, I believe you could use a similar fastener like a linkage pin and "C" clip like the ones I've seen on older carburetors. Even a small screw with two nuts would work, as long as the weight remains close. I would also go ahead and make a flat spring that mimics the broken one you have. I'm not preaching "sloppy, back yard mechanics" here. As a Federally licensed aircraft mechanic for 32 plus years, I know there is no room for guess work or careless work, but I also use common sense keeping our early auto's going, where there maybe no factory parts available. To quote the great Thomas Alva Edison, " I have not failed, I've found 10,000 ways that won't work." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Lawson Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Ray Did you get my PM Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Anselmo Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I decided on a rebuild when I received a quote for $600 plus shipping to the U.K. and taxes for a rebuilt unit from a reputable source. Yikes, maybe I should start rebuilding tanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 Ray Did you get my PM RonYes thanks Ron. I have sent a p.m. Sorry for the delay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) To quote the great Thomas Alva Edison, " I have not failed, I've found 10,000 ways that won't work."I like the quote. Pete. I think we all admire greatness. To quote from the Bard..... "Be not afraid of greatness: some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them" (Twelfth night)I think one would have to attribute greatness to the Dodge Brothers. I guess they "achieved" greatness. They didn't have greatness thrust upon them and they certainly were not born great.UPDATE: I have ordered the POR 15 tank sealant and some 1/4" copper pipe. Meantime, I have treated the rust with FERTAN.Watch this space....==========================================================I have made a "C" spring from brass shim stock. The tension is just right to hold the float and the linkage steady. Rather than dismantling the mechanism, I have slotted the ends and soldered one end of the spring to the float; this will prevent the spring from twisting round like it did before, but with the top end free to move in the desired direction. Should be O.K.Ray Edited October 13, 2012 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 The rust treatment will take 24 hours to dry. As I already had the Fertan left over from another job I have used it instead of buying a whole new lot - most of which would not be required. Having left the tank in the garage overnight, it is now drying out thoroughly next to the AGA in the kitchen..... Yes, I did get permission from the good lady!!Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BobD735 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Hi Ray,What is Fertan? You said it was a rust treatment. Does it contain phosphoric acid? I'm trying to find out if it's similar to Prep and Prime, a rust treatment that we have here, which I use.Thanks,Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Good job on that little flat spring Ray, I think it will do just FINE. I believe most of it's intended purpose is to steady the float in the tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted October 14, 2012 Author Share Posted October 14, 2012 (edited) Hi Bob,Fertan is tannic acid (Fe2 O3) a water based, non toxic product that works in a similar way to Prep and Prime (phosphoric acid) in that it converts rust into a stable compound. The main difference is that Prep and Prime can be completely removed leaving new metal where Fertan remains discoloured. Both can be used with a tank sealant and can be found on Ebay UK. It is otherwise sold as Hammerite Kur rust.Hi Pete,it's thanks to you for pointing out that the spring is made from brass. I had assumed it would have been sprung steel in which case it would have been a different story! Ray Edited October 14, 2012 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted October 16, 2012 Author Share Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) The idea of an additional filter inside the outer tank appealed to me. There is a small filter in the neck of the inlet fitting at the top of the tank. The fact that this is completely clear leads me to hope that the main fuel tank is possibly in good condition. It may of course only be that the filter had been cleaned out by the previous owner. A small stand pipe filter will be a useful addition should my optomism be misplaced and the inlet filter persistantly become blocked and need to be removed. My design for the filter evolved (as these things do) and the pictures show this. Plan "A"..... I had originally planned to cut up and utilise a fine mesh coffee filter. My original idea was to solder(?) this to a short length of pierced brass tube with an outer (1/2" copper) sleeve; cut away at the bottom. A snugly fitting brass stopper sits in the top of the brass tube and with a conveniently sized copper washer the assembly was to be soldered together to provide a neat assembly.Plan "B".... There are no prizes for knowing that the fine mesh coffee filter is not made from brass as I had assumed and therefore cannot be soldered. With typical British stoicism, I switched to plan "B" and ordered a sheet of fine brass gauze. In the meantime, I drilled some small holes in the middle of the tube and fitted the (shortened) stopper to one end and also soldered on the copper washer. I also junked the idea of a copper sleeve. The brass gauze arrived today. I cut out a piece and soldered it to the brass tube; the result is shown in picture 3. The larger, closed end acts as a suitable appendage with which to remove or attach the filter which is an interference fit over the short standpipe in the bottom of the outer tank. ========================================================The Por 15 tank sealant was surprisingly available in an 8 OZ tin - which was almost designed for the purpose and of course, this small size was a considerable saving on the cost of a full size kit. Ray. Edited October 16, 2012 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Today I have made a little more progress with the vacuum tank restoration. With the rust converter having done it's work for 24 hours and the residue cleaned off with a damp cloth, it was time to apply the tank sealant. It is good policy to protect any threads, I feel, so as you can see I have blanked off exits from the bottom of the tank and coated the inside of the tank with the sealant which will be left for at least a few days to harden off. I quite like the metalic silver finish.Note how the Fertan, if applied to bare steel will discolor it; I have also treated the inner container. I am unsure at this time, however, if there is any point in sealing the inner one. Fortunately, the bakelite flapper valve shown here is in good condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1936 D2 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Ray,What seems to happen between the leaded solder and the Fertan (or did you use silver solder)? You commented about the bare steel darkening. I was just wondering if there was any chemical effect to the solder, like embrittlement or color change etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 I will check to see if the solder changes color - I don't think it has any effect on the solder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Nice job on that filter Ray, knowing next to nothing about this particular tank the only question that comes to mind is whether or not it will make drawing the fuel from the tank a bit harder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 Thanks Jason. I have checked the flow through the filter and it seems very good. There is no noticable resistance. Also, so long as the flow is sufficient to keep the carb float chamber topped up, there should be no problem. A very small filter which resides in the supply pipe connection at the top of the tank is the most likely obstacle. My neighbour, Steve, who runs a 1926 12/50 Alvis (nice car) with the British version called an "Autovac" says the best thing to do would be to leave it out now that I have a stand pipe filter. He saw the filter today and thought what a good idea it was. The filtered area is far bigger than before and being on a stand pipe is even less likely to block; but only time will tell.I have found traces of green paint on the vacuum tank; similar to that on the engine. If anyone can confirm the correct color for 1926, I will be able to return it to original which would please me also.Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I do believe they were originally black, I have never seen a vacuum canister that was anything but. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share Posted October 28, 2012 (edited) Having finished soldering, the next step was to prep and paint the outer tank. First, I thoroughly degreased the surface with panel wipe then applied a little filler an sanded down to even out the surface. The second picture shows the bottom of the tank ready for painting. My chosen paint is gloss black engine enamel (although I am not entirely sure the tank was black but might have been a light shade of green). This should provide a tough surface resistant to heat and petrol contamination. The third photo shows the inner cannister, having been rust treated, next to the outer tank with stand pipe filter in situ. This was carefully tapped home with a small hammer and drift; it's a pretty tight interference fit.Photo 2 shows how the inner cannister just sits inside the outer; held in place by the thin lip around the top. Edited October 28, 2012 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Great job Ray, might want to go with an eggshell instead of gloss but your car. It was not originally green. It was black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted October 28, 2012 Author Share Posted October 28, 2012 (edited) I noticed an indentation on the gasket which can only have been made by the vent hole in the top. It is essential that the hole in the top aligns with that in the rim at the top of the outer tank. A failure to marry these two openings will result in failure of the unit. This discovery is not in itself conclusive evidence for why the vacuum tank was taken out of use as there were a number of other faults which would have caused failure. Close inspection of photo 1 shows the indentation next to the inlet pipe.Photo 2 shows how the top is a replacement replica cast in bronze. One of the problems I have been trying to remedy is the damage to the fittings. Photo 3 shows the top sealed and screwed back together. Fortunately, the gasket was in good condition. Most problematical has been the fuel inlet coupling. It would appear that in the past, someone ruined it by using the wrong spanner and turned off the corners of the flats to such an extent that no spanner could be used. Not having a replacement to hand, I thought it would be possible to file down the flats so that a 11/16 spanner would fit. It would have originally have been 3/4". The compromise was that some of the bevel seating would be lost. My solution was to square off the seating on my lathe and solder a washer in place. A smooth flat seating was then carefully filed to the top surface of the bronze top. Very little material needed to be removed to achieve this. A copper compression washer was then fitted to the brass fitting. This arrangement can be seen in the photo. On reflection, I am not happy that the seal will be good enough and even if it worked, the compression washer would probably have to be replaced each time the fitting was disturbed. The DB forum to the rescue!!Fortunately, Ron Lawson is sending me a replacement fitting. The vent pipe fitting is also incomplete and he is helping me out with that as well. Thanks Ron. The final pictures show how, as with all the fittings, the supply tap has been mistreated in the past. The fuel supply elbow looks like it has been attacked with a file The third fitting(next to the nut) shows the tiny hole which must be kept clear for the vacuum to work.I have collected together a length of 3/4" copper tubing for the vacuum and fuel lines and some 3/16" tube for the vent pipe. A straight connector to join the fuel line and a fitting from the manifold of my spare Stewart carb (only$50 on ebay). I have a pipe flaring tool for the single flared ends and a pipe cutter. With some PTFE tape and a few tools I should soon be able to refit the tank to the car. Hopefully it will work!!!Ray Edited October 28, 2012 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 The fittings furthest to the left and right are original Dodge fuel fittings, I do not recognize the center two Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 The first elbow screws into the nut type fitting. It looks different because of the washer. This is the fuel fitting which screws into the larger hole in the top. The fitting with the tiny hole in it screws into the elbow on it's right and is the vacuum fitting. The tiny hole contolls the vacuum and means that pipework of much smaller diameter could be used if wished.Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Really nice Ray. I didn't know the older tanks used a bronze casting for the cover. The black screw heads against the bronze is a nice touch. My '25 has a pot metal-like cover with a crack out of one of the screw holes (JB weld is holding). Someday I'll order one of those polished aluminum repro castings for sale. Fwiw, my tank also has one of those small orifice vacuum control fittings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Lawson Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Ray if possible DO NOT use PTFE tape go for a Locktite type thread sealer instead. Any bits of thread tape that become disloged can cause havoc to needle valves and jets Any Ray this is a car your repairing is not a plumbing job I like the job that you have done on the vac tank and the cast brass tops are not common. I do have some good orininals if you want to go that way Cheers Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundog99 Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Hi Ron,I have sent you a PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
db17 Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Yes, I'm doing the same thing for my 1917 DB touring car. I heard some rattling inside the canister so I decided to take it apart. It all looks pretty good except for surface rust. Springs in good shape too. I haven't decide to paint the inside or not. I'm afraid the gas will dissolve the paint and clog it up later.Thanks db17, TexasI have decided to restore the original Stewart Warner vacuum tank. A previous owner had substituted an electric fuel pump and taken the feed to the carb via the tank. I presume this was done because without a regulator, the pump may well have caused the carb to flood. This set up worked well enough but I think must have been unsafe; even with the vacuum and vent openings blocked.I removed the tank when it sprung a leak and it soon became clear that it had been repaired before. The unit consists of one container within another but the outer has rusted considerably but it may just be saveable. The two valves seem to work and all the mechanism is still in place. The two springs had failed and the float was full of petrol. There is a C spring attached to the float guide pin which has failed. I don't have another and I'm not sure if it is essential to the operation of the tank.I decided on a rebuild when I received a quote for $600 plus shipping to the U.K. and taxes for a rebuilt unit from a reputable source. Would anyone like to follow this rebuild? Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 (edited) I hear what you say, DB17 . Be sure if you treat your vacuum tank that you use a tank sealer which is ethanol resistant or you may well have trouble with petrol dissolving the coating.Cheers. Ray. Edited October 29, 2012 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 I believe there are two part epoxy paints that can stand up to it iirc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 I don't know if you can get this in the U.K. but it does a good job of sealing petrol connection. I have the 16 oz. bottle which is a multiple lifetime supply (it's all I could find). http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_sealants/auto_Permatex_Aviation_Form-A-Gasket_No_3_Sealant_a.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 Thanks Mike, I have ordered a tube of Permatex threadlock. If you enlarge some of my photos you can see the male threads are none too clever. Each elbow has a UNF and a UNC thread - fortunately, the fine threads are O.K. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1936 D2 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Hi Ray. I may have spotted a potential problem when I looked closely at the attached photo. Is it possible that the dark area under the copper crush gasket is not just a shadow but an air gap near the threads of the opening in the cast brass top? If so, maybe a larger copper crush gasket is needed or possibly even a change to possibly a Neoprene "O" ring or such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 Yes, well done - you spotted the deliberate mistake! I did actually say that on reflection I was "not happy that the seal would be good enough"; this is what I was referring to and that Ron Lawson in Australia is sending me another coupling adaptor. This should have the correct 3/4" nut and bevel seating which would make a proper job of it - certainly better than my rather desperate efforts ! Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 (edited) I just found this post. I have 2 tanks. Didn't have a clue what they were for. What cars are these for? Thanks Dave.:cool: Edited November 9, 2012 by countrytravler (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 (edited) Hi Dave. Those tanks will sell quite well if you want to dispose of them as they were fitted to most '20s cars I think.At present, I am in need of the two conical nuts which attach the vacuum pipe from the manifold to the top of the tank. It looks as if Tom Myers will be able to help me out. Ron Lawson has also helped me out again. Brilliant!!Ray. Edited November 9, 2012 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machinist_Bill Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Iv'e got mine boxed up ready to send to you Ray! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Zetnick Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Countrytraveler, is the one photo on the upper right (smooth sided tank) a Kingston? Supposedly that was what was original on my car ('29 DA)...I'd be interested in it if it is and you are trying to sell. Ray, thanks so much for the process on your Stewart Warner....I have the same one...I think they were fairly common...whether I use a Kingston or my Stewart your photos and posts will be very helpful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 Bob, you are most welcome; I just hope it works!!Bill, you are very kind but I have placed the order with Myers along with some other items that I need but hold onto those parts just in case. "There's many a slip 'tween cup and lip" as they say. Thanks for your support.Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 The tank is a Stewart. The #s on top is, t-2 in one spot,3634 in another spot. It is for sale. I have to check around for price. Thanks Dave.:cool:Countrytraveler, is the one photo on the upper right (smooth sided tank) a Kingston? Supposedly that was what was original on my car ('29 DA)...I'd be interested in it if it is and you are trying to sell. Ray, thanks so much for the process on your Stewart Warner....I have the same one...I think they were fairly common...whether I use a Kingston or my Stewart your photos and posts will be very helpful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machinist_Bill Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Bill, you are very kind but I have placed the order with Myers along with some other items that I need but hold onto those parts just in case. "There's many a slip 'tween cup and lip" as they say. Thanks for your support.Ray.Heck Ray I wasn't gonna GIVE you anything! I want you to rebuild mine!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 Heck Ray I wasn't gonna GIVE you anything! I want you to rebuild mine!!!!!!!!What a hoot! Trust me to get the wrong end of the stick! Sure Bill, I can restore your tank for you but then you wouldn't have the fun of doing it yourself!LOL Raaay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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