Guest rameses32 Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Ok, I went through the engine, put in new oil, hand cranked it till oil came out the gauge line. I set the plugs at .020 and the points at .012, I get a bright blue spark in all the plugs, but it takes a bit of speed to get the magneto firing, just wondering if these 88 year old magnetos weaken as the magnets edge closer to 100 years old? Anyway, I primed the cylinders and cranked the engine with the electric starter as fast as I could get it cranking with a battery and a jump, but it wouldn't fire, hand cranking Got it to fire up for a second but that was the only time I could get it started. I noticed the holes in the fiber magneto drive washer were wallowed out and there was a crack in it, so I will make a new one tomorrow. I was wondering if there was anything else to look out for that I'm not considering? Any help is greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billstewart Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Hi, I set my plugs at 32 and points at 18 on my 24. it has the coil set up , not magneto set up. I don't know if that make any different. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Rameses32, Your plug gap is correct for magneto set up,@.022". I would check into the cylinders getting fuel, FRESH FUEL. If you're getting a good spark at the plugs, chances are your mag is OK. As I recall, the points in the mag can be finicky on an early truck I once had. They need to be clean and gapped right on the money. Check the crazy simple things first. Is gas turned ON?--- All ignition connections clean & tight? Is spark lever retarded at start? A known good condenser? Then double check the ignition timing. The carb has a rack & pinion gear inside for choke and I've seen the teeth on the little pinion gear stripped off. When one pulls the choke button out, it isn't really pulling the needle down inside the carb. Please let us know how you're coming along with the '24 start up. The mag drive plate is important to be in good shape like you guessed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Did you remove and/or fiddle with the carb? I suspect a fuel issue. Are you certain the fuel bowl is getting fuel (unscrew the little cap on top of fuel bowl and look at the rod sticking out). Try pulling up on the rod with your fingers. If it's already all of the way up, it means no fuel in the fuel bowl. Have you tried pouring some gas into the vacuum tank? If the car has been sitting a long while and fuel is able to seep past the shut off valve, the tank will eventually go dry and it will take longer to get it started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 One other thing I forgot to add, if you did remove the carb from the intake mixing chamber you may want to double check that the two blots are tightened evenly. I failed to do this and ended up with a vacuum leak that was hard to figure out. I unbolted it and carefully tightened each bolt again and it then fired right up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McEwan Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 This is the one you bought recently in an earlier posting?Maybe you should check the cam and timing marks to make sure it was assembled properly way back.On a side note, I am in Newcastle and have a fully restored 1923 Dodge tourer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rameses32 Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Ok, bit of an update. I completely disassembled the magneto, cleaned it out, checked the winding and the condenser,put it back together and made a new fiber washer out of hard leather, the holes in the other one were oval and it was actually cracker in half. I tested the magneto and it has fantastic spark, even at a slow rotational speed. The engine still wouldn't start, it never even tried. So i removed the Carburetor, it was leaking and dirty, so I completely disassembled it cleaned it, and reassembled it. The intake was completely full of fuel, so I dried it out before re-installing the carburetor, and I also found the the needle adjustment on the carby was backed all the way out so I turned it in about 3 turns, hooked up the fuel line, I'm just gravity feeding it from a tank on the cowl. Hand cranked it twice and it fired up and ran perfectly, it idled great, everything. I shut it off by grounding the ignition wire and havent been able to get it started since, grrrrrr. I hand cranked it so much yesterday I can barely move today,lol. Still has beautiful spark, I just cant figure it out, it ran so perfectly and now it wont start again.CHarley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I would try dribbling a little gas over the carb air intake and then see if the engine at least coughs when you try and start it. If it does then you know fuel starvation is the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 SOunds like you just bought the car? If so when did it run last? Can the compression push your finger off the sparkplug hole? Are all the valves moving and adjusted properly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rameses32 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) SOunds like you just bought the car? If so when did it run last? Can the compression push your finger off the sparkplug hole? Are all the valves moving and adjusted properly?Yes, I just bought the car a week ago, it hasn't run in over 30 years, the engine was rebuilt 25 years ago and never started, so you could say it has never run. I have checked the engine inside and out, timing, tappets, all internal engine settings are spot on, good compression on all cylinders, like I said, the one time it did start yesterday it ran perfectly, I shut it off and it hasn't started since. I really think it is a carby problem because it has bright blue spark even when turning over very slowly. Oh, and I can hear the metering valve bouncing up and down in the carby as I turn the engine over so at least I know that is working.Charley Edited October 2, 2012 by rameses32 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rameses32 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Pulled the Carby off again, the intake chamber is just a lake of un-burnt fuel, I'll dry it out and tear down the carby again, see if I missed anything. Anyone know a setting to start with?Charley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 If the engine is flooding, the needle valve is either stuck, worn out or clogged with a speck of rust. It could also be a vacuum leak. I don't know the condition of your carb. At least plug the wiper line OFF at the fitting on top of the vacuum tank next time you try starting it. Put a short length of rubber tube with a screw in the end of it on that fitting. Let the wiper tube dangle for now. Setting up the carb is very tricky because it is unlike any other carb. You've got a metering pin inside the metering valve. They both can move independently within one another. The metering pin is known to break off the rack easily. The small thumb knob on the choke bell crank is the micro-tuning for idling mixture since the rack and pinion goes together in a macro way. Anyway, when you have the carb back on the engine, turn on the "gas", wait a few moments and with a small flashlight, look down into the air intake adjustment sleeve, right before it goes into the block,turn it open if it's not-- you'll see fuel running through it if carb is still flooding. Have you tested the float in hot water for leaks? ---here's a picture of a broken metering pin from the rack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rameses32 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 If the engine is flooding, the needle valve is either stuck, worn out or clogged with a speck of rust. It could also be a vacuum leak. I don't know the condition of your carb. At least plug the wiper line OFF at the fitting on top of the vacuum tank next time you try starting it. Put a short length of rubber tube with a screw in the end of it on that fitting. Let the wiper tube dangle for now. Setting up the carb is very tricky because it is unlike any other carb. You've got a metering pin inside the metering valve. They both can move independently within one another. The metering pin is known to break off the rack easily. The small thumb knob on the choke bell crank is the micro-tuning for idling mixture since the rack and pinion goes together in a macro way. Anyway, when you have the carb back on the engine, turn on the "gas", wait a few moments and with a small flashlight, look down into the air intake adjustment sleeve, right before it goes into the block,turn it open if it's not-- you'll see fuel running through it if carb is still flooding. Have you tested the float in hot water for leaks? ---here's a picture of a broken metering pin from the rack.Thanks for the information, I pulled the carby apart again, inspected everything, it all looks new, I put it back together, made a new gasket between the carby and engine, blocked the vacuum port, connected the fuel, made sure the fuel bowl filled up, and it stopped the fuel like it was supposed to. Cranked the engine a few times by hand with the throttle just above idle, nothing, enrichened it, cranked it some more, nothing, used the electric start for a while, nothing, primed each cylinder with a tiny bit of fuel, nothing, not even a cough. AAARRRRGHHHHH!!!!! I'm going nuts. I'm leaning back towards spark now, because it should have at least coughed once or twice, something, anything! I get a bright blue spark with the plugs out but they are 25 years old, or older perhaps they are failing under compression, I have no idea at this point, I just cant believe it ran so perfectly for 2 minutes and then never again.CHarley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I'm thinking timing or maybe a bad vacuum leak. I don't have the magneto so I can't help you with timing set up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) What's throwing me here is if the timing had slipped, (chain on sprocket), you would still get a cough or back fire unless the chain broke or sprocket let go on shaft. Remove one valve cover and crank engine to verify valves are moving! Is there anything you are doing different when you test the spark at the plugs and when you're starting the car? It only takes 3 things for combustion--spark, good fuel and compression. P.S., I doubt the plugs are failing under compression. The coil might. Edited October 2, 2012 by Pete K. (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rameses32 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 The timing is spot on, bring #1 up on compression, compression drops off, #4 exhaust valve just closes, breakers open, rotor is pointing at #1 terminal on cap. The plugs that are in it are Champion W-14, is that the correct plugs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rameses32 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Will NGK G-2Z plugs work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 As long as the threads on plugs are 7/8 X 18 US std., they will work. The difference with each plug is the heat range of the plug itself. A "hot" plug means the heat generated by cylinder combustion built up on the center electrode has a longer travel distance up in the plug to it's surrounding cylinder head threaded hole where the coolant is.--so the electrode stays "hotter". The Dodge had Champion's in it originally. I don't think your problem is at all, the plugs. I don't know the internals of the NGK G-2Z. Some of my old cars are still using 80 tear old plugs and going FINE. My '25 Dodge is using very old Champion's C-16 C's. They work well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billstewart Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 It could be getting to much gas and flooding it. That would stop it from coughing or trying to hit,Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyAus Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 You may be suffering from the same problem I had - a crook magneto. The magneto will produce what looks like a good spark at the plug gap but not under compression. This can be due to the windings breaking down when the going gets tough, a problem with the internal capacitor or a weak magnet. As a rough check, a good magneto should produce a spark at the safety gaps when the plugs and leads are disconnected. These are the two pointed brass screws adjacent to the slip ring (the bakelite and brass bit on the end of the armature which transfers the spark to the cap via the bottom carbon brush. These gaps are placed so the spark has somewhere to go if the plugs are not connected. Remove the magneto cap and turn the engine to check these. Another test is wave a screwdriver close to the slip ring while earthing its shank against the magneto body. A good magneto should throw a bright blue spark about at least 1/4" here.If all fails here I can put you on to a good magneto repairer in Sydney - he did mine and the car has never failed to start since (except when I forgot to turn on the petrol tap). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Have you checked the plugs after trying to start? If they are soaked with gas perhaps flooding is the issue. There was (is?) a tool called Gunson's Color Tune which is essentially a spark plug with a short, flat top, quartz see-through insulator. I used to use one on my MGB to get the mixture right by looking at the color of the flame. It could also be used to see if there is a spark at all under compression. If they sold these in Oz perhaps you can track one down. Ah but you would also need an adapter for the 7/8-18 to a modern plug thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Gunson | G4074 | Colortune Single Plug Kit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rameses32 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I checked the spark in the Magneto, The spark plugs throw a nice blue spark at .020, but the spark is no where near strong enough to make it to the safety gap pin in the side of the magneto, with a grounded screw driver I measured maximum spark to the collector ring to be 3mm, or 1/8". I think this is my problem, I think the spark is failing under compression. Any Opinions on this theory?Charley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Question is, will your safety gap even spark if your plugs are hooked up & installed? It's been too many years for me to remember about those mags. Do you have ANY printed information on the magneto? I think at least one of the Dodge parts vendors sell a book on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyAus Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 The safety gap will NOT spark if the plugs are attached. It is an alternative route to ground.That spark is not strong enough. Looks like you are up for a rewind. This is a good idea as you cannot trust an old magneto not to let you down at the worst possible moment.I can Recommend Peter Scott, 44 Ravel Street, Seven Hills NSW 2147 (02) 96241262. He went right through my magneto (rewind, modern capacitor, new bearings, recharge magnet) for, from memory, less than $400. Give him a ring to confirm your problem - he is the expert on magnetos. (Usual disclaimer - no connection rather than as a happy customer). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rameses32 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Thank you for that, I will definitely be sending my magneto down to him, even though the engine was rebuilt 25 years ago, it was done with used gaskets and the paint is old and crusty, so I will be removing the engine and stripping it and putting it back together with new gaskets, complete set, including Head Gasket is only $230 so it seems silly not to. While it's torn down I will send the Mag off for rebuild. I am just trying to get it running before tear down to determine if it needs anything else, and so far it needs a Mag rebuild. Update, tonight I got it started again, by hand cranking, the distributor cap is shot, I did manage to get the plug wires reattached in a more solid way, giving a much stronger and reliable spark at the plugs. It has been sitting for several days with the plugs, out so I know the cylinders were dry of fuel. It started up and ran for about 15 seconds then started to slow down until it died, to me it felt like it flooded, so I pulled the plugs out and they were saturated with fuel. The hand regulator was closed so that wasn't it, and I know the rack and pinion and needle valve are good, and so is the fuel bowl needle and seat. More head scratching, but I will figure it out. By the way, I love my new car:) But my shoulders don't, I should be skinny and fit by the time it is running correctly,lol. Thank you everybody for all your help and suggestions, we will get this puppy sorted out yet:)CHarleyThe safety gap will NOT spark if the plugs are attached. It is an alternative route to ground.That spark is not strong enough. Looks like you are up for a rewind. This is a good idea as you cannot trust an old magneto not to let you down at the worst possible moment.I can Recommend Peter Scott, 44 Ravel Street, Seven Hills NSW 2147 (02) 96241262. He went right through my magneto (rewind, modern capacitor, new bearings, recharge magnet) for, from memory, less than $400. Give him a ring to confirm your problem - he is the expert on magnetos. (Usual disclaimer - no connection rather than as a happy customer). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rameses32 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Have you checked the plugs after trying to start? If they are soaked with gas perhaps flooding is the issue. There was (is?) a tool called Gunson's Color Tune which is essentially a spark plug with a short, flat top, quartz see-through insulator. I used to use one on my MGB to get the mixture right by looking at the color of the flame. It could also be used to see if there is a spark at all under compression. If they sold these in Oz perhaps you can track one down. Ah but you would also need an adapter for the 7/8-18 to a modern plug thread.Thats exactly what it did tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Glad to hear you're making some progress Charley. One thing you might look at on the carb; it is possible to install the metering pin 'rack' gear at the wrong position on the pinion gear. This could have the effect of causing a much richer mixture. This is because the needle is tapered and when the dashpot piston is at its low position (idle), the metering jet will have the thicker part of the pin in the jet hole, thus a small area through which fuel can flow. As the throttle is opened, more air flow results in the piston rising and since the jet is affixed to the piston assembly, it moves up relative the metering pin. Since the upper part of the metering pin is smaller in diameter, the area between the jet and the pin gets larger, admitting more fuel. Have you tried to start it with no 'choke' at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rameses32 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I only enrichened it for a couple turns of the hand crank, then returned it to the closed (knob pushed all the way back in, (un-enrichened )) position, then gave it a few cranks and she started, like I said it ran for about 15 seconds then slowed down and stopped, pulled the plugs and they were dripping with fuel.CharleyGlad to hear you're making some progress Charley. One thing you might look at on the carb; it is possible to install the metering pin 'rack' gear at the wrong position on the pinion gear. This could have the effect of causing a much richer mixture. This is because the needle is tapered and when the dashpot piston is at its low position (idle), the metering jet will have the thicker part of the pin in the jet hole, thus a small area through which fuel can flow. As the throttle is opened, more air flow results in the piston rising and since the jet is affixed to the piston assembly, it moves up relative the metering pin. Since the upper part of the metering pin is smaller in diameter, the area between the jet and the pin gets larger, admitting more fuel. Have you tried to start it with no 'choke' at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyAus Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 This may help (from Dykes Carburettor Suppliment 1937). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24 Roadster Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Before going to the expense of rebuilding you mag you might try this. One way to check if the mag is your problem is to replace your mag with a coil. Maybe borrow one from a pre 70s car. If it starts then your mag is bad. If not look somewhere else forthe problem. Rebuild your mag or run with a coil as I do. What about it guys will this work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Miller Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 (edited) Rameses32, where are you located? Are you in the US? From the running commentary it does sound like a fault with the magneto since you should be getting some sort of firing by squirting a little gas in the cylinders. You say the mag is generating a spark when you test it but are you testing the spark with the mag bolted in place or are you taking it out to test the spark? I have seen two people on this forum whose magnetos inadvertently were grounding out when in place but had great spark when removed for testing, so make sure you still get a spark with the mag bolted in. I assume you are running an Eisemann G-4 and if you do need a rebuild and are in the US I can highly recommend Steve Belanger at Mainely Magnetos in Maine. About $400 for a complete rewind and condenser rehab and turnaround time is about 2-3 months. He's done two different magnetos for me and they have held up just fine. Also make sure your ignition wires are in good shape. That's pretty obvious but I would fit some new ones just to make sure, wire is cheap enough and at least you will know what you have.Bill Edited October 5, 2012 by Bill Miller (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian1925tourer Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 I think many of us have been here before, I would replace the petrol if it is more than 2 months old. Another thing the advance /retard lever on steering wheel works opposite on magneto, so lever down on wheel is retard, lever up on magneto is retard. Worth checking. Do you have the timing hole. If so use white paint to mark both lines, I use the first line so I get more advance. I found I needed half my allowance to start. Hope this info is helpful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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