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LOL Dei!  You don't need me.  We just went about this from a different perspective.  You are preserving your car for the future.  You approached your task from a restorer's view point.  And I can appreciate that.   I approached mine from a repair view point.  I'm not ready to restore my car.  I just want to drive it.  So, although I cleaned up the parts, I did not spend any time restoring anything.  I hope to pass each of my cars, one to each of my sons.    I just plan to have them in good running & driveable condition when I no longer am.  What they do with them, then, is their business.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said:

I just plan to have them in good running & driveable condition when I no longer am.

 

I so appreciate that John!

Finished up dinner with friends tonight and we were talking about how it would be nice to go for ice cream in the Buick again. Yes that is the new goal, get on the road and enjoy her. 

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21 hours ago, JohnD1956 said:

Did the rear shoes and cylinders today. It took a while cause I really do not have the space to work in my garage.  But when I took it for a test drive I immediately saw what others were talking about with hard to stop!  I may still have some air in the lines although I did have a firm pedal where I could just get my toes under it.  I also need to go back over the shoe adjustments, as I did not have the time to play today.  But as soon as I pulled it out of the garage I did not think the car would stop at the end of the driveway.  I felt like I was pushing the pedal through the floor!  That's some scary stuff!!!

 

But I just went around the block and exercised the brakes as much as possible.  By the time I got back it did feel better already.  But it's gonna rain tonight and our chapter has a tour tomorrow, so it will be next week before I can get back to it. 

 

If nothing else I do have the four old pairs of shoes if I need to ship em out to be relined.  But I'm holding off till I can get some miles on these to see if things change for the better.. 

John, I was hoping you found some better than those I tried.  Drive it and adjust often.  Pull drums and check wear pattern...if not at least 3/4 contact, get a brake caliper to check you drums.

If the shoes perform better when hot (mine stopped like a beast when very hot and driven hard), but still hard to stop when cold, you have the same Raybestos junk (or equivalent).

If you get some specified linings installed, it is best to have the drums turned and the shoes arced to fit.

I never had this much trouble many years ago where I installed some cheapest Western Auto shoes on scored  and tapered drums...they were a little squirrelly at first but settled to perform until worn out again.

Willie 

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I assume the issue here is the modern, non-asbestos 'organic' lining material used today, right?  Are shoes with semi-metallic lining material still available, or is that what you bought?

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The composition of the lining is unknown.  It did appear to have small metal strips in the material, but I don't know for a fact that the shoes contain metal. 

I did not take a picture of the shoes themselves but I thought the surface of the material was wavey, for lack of a better descriptive word.  By this I mean it had small peaks, Lots of small peaks.  I wonder if the initial braking applications are impacted because the shoe material is not perfectly flat across it's surface.  I imagine these peaks will wear off in short order of use, resulting in more shoe to drum contact.  But I am no expert on this.

 

I will run these for a while, and see if they get better.  I suspect Willie is right about the shoes working better when hot.  If so I'll know when I first take it out again.  But I am also thinking of taking up the adjustment quite a bit more, so that this initial run in period results in more abrasion on the shoes while running. 

 

If I need to, I'll drive to Syracuse to meet with the relining service to see what materials are available.

 

 

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9 hours ago, JohnD1956 said:

If I need to, I'll drive to Syracuse to meet with the relining service to see what materials are available.

 

What's the name of the shop you're referring to?  I didn't realize there was somewhere local (to me) that provides this service...

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 10/3/2016 at 9:21 AM, JohnD1956 said:

PBS Brake & Supply Corp.
6044 Corporate Dr
East Syracuse, New York
1-315-463-4541
1-800-252-2271
FAX 1-315-463-1017
parts@pbs-asi.com

 

Did those linings perform as expected?

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The foreign manufactured over the counter linings work very well.  I did have two issues.

On the pass side rear, I did not have the spring at the adjuster hooked fully.  This resulted in the adjuster disconnecting.  But once that was back and I adjusted the rears so the parking brake has 1/2 it's length till fully applied, the brakes work good. 

The only thing throwing me off is it does take a little more pressure to apply the brakes.  I attribute the need for extra pressure to the return springs.  I do not have a good photo but the new return spring hardware is considerably heavier gauge than the original return springs I removed. 

I have roughly 150 miles on the car since installation.  And the brakes are tight enough that it cannot be pushed by hand easily.  But I check each time I finish a drive and  there is no burning smell or over heated drums.

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While driving to that last show in Staatsburg NY a few weeks ago, I was reminded of a vibration in this car which was really the reason I stopped feeling comfortable on long trips.  I know it had the issue before and during 2003 when I drove it to Flint, and that was pretty much the last time I took the car a substantial distance. This vibration was subtle at idle, and pronounced at about 60 MPH.    It came and went while driving, sort of like a droning pulse.  A few days after that trip I had it out again and concentrating on the issue I noticed it was plainly evident at all speeds, not just 60 MPH.  So, I stopped and ran the idle up in neutral and sure enough, it was engine related.  For a week or so I pondered this vibration and concluded it must be the fan.  So I finally decided to drop the fan belts one at a time to see if that helped. 

Well, it turned out to be the power steering pump.  Took it for 10 mile ride without the pump hooked up and what a difference.  But it was a bear to steer so I reattached the belt, and the vibration was back immediately.  I decided It was time to get the pump rebuilt.

The first step is to get the old pump off.  The step before that is to get the pulley off the pump so it can be removed from the brackets.   The step between the two is to take a few aspirins from the headache of trying to loosen that damn pulley bolt.

With the counsel of Old Tank and Kad36, tonight I took a practice stab at one of my two spare pumps. Using a large set of water pump pliers, I was able to lock the shaft of the spare pump while it was on the floor.  Stepping on the pliers for a wedge, a few taps of the BFH on the end of my 3/8th drive breaker bar, the bolt on the spare pump came loose.  Even though this pump has been sitting for at least 35 or so years, the pulley came right off the shaft. 

Encouraged, but with the factory issued pump still on the engine, I knew I could not hold those pliers and handle the wrench and BFH at the same time.  So I took a used v belt ( yes, I still keep most all the old parts) and  I wrapped that old belt all around the pulley and between the brackets as tight as I could.  Then three raps with a 20 oz. BFH, on the end of my 3/8th drive breaker bar, and the bolt was loose.  It is a standard thread bolt by the way. When the bolt was half way off the shaft, I lightly tapped the pulley and was thinking I'd need to rotate it to tap the other side next when it popped off the keyed shaft. 

It was so easy I now plan to just hook up my spare pump and see if it's good enough to go.  If it is, then I'll take it back off and clean it up. 

 

 

 

Edited by JohnD1956
to straighten out what type of hammer I used. (see edit history)
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10 hours ago, JohnD1956 said:

"... lightly tapped the pulley and was thinking I'd need to rotate it to tap the other side next when it popped off the keyed shaft."

 

...and then I woke up!    :P

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You can spin the nut right off with an impact gun. When I pulled my replacement junkyard part, I couldn't for the life of me get the nut off the pulley after a week of soaking. Finally a bit ticked off, took the impact gun and... spin it off the first try no hassles and didn't even have my hand on the pulley. Works great btw. If you have wobble, it might just be the pulley got bent or out of round. Try swapping it first before draining oils?

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There isn't any wobble in the pump shaft of the old pump. And the eyeball test shows the pulley straight and in alignment with the other pulleys.  What I did notice was that the original pump seems to pump erratically.  I wanted to flush the steering box and lines before putting another pump on, so, I disconnected the return line and drained the reservoir as much as possible.  Then I spun the pump by hand to push more fluid through the steering box.  When I spun it by hand the fluid just dripped out the return line, till one point where the pump caught a prime and then it really pushed the fluid through.  That does not empty the reservoir though, so I sopped up the remains with paper towels and wiped the inside of the reservoir down.  Then I filled the reservoir half way with new fluid and spun the pump again.  Just like before, dribbles till all of a sudden it caught and then it pushed the fluid through. 

 

I did this several times, always stopping before exposing the pickup port of the pump.  Each time it was the same thing.  I guess this must have been why I had a erratic droning with the vibration. 

 

I already cleaned up spare pump #1 and installed it.   However, I do have to bleed the system as the fluid foamed up seconds after starting the engine.  I'll work on that over the next few days. 

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Well, cleaned up and installed spare pump 2. Spare pump 1 was very quiet for the few seconds I ran it.  But I think it has a seal leak and am not sure the pressure relief valve was working.  It would only take a few moments running when the fluid would foam up and it chattered like crazy.  It wasn't air in the steering box cause I followed the bleeding procedure sans opening the bleeder screw on the steering box side cover.  My side cover has the boss for the bleeder screw, but it appears it was never machined and installed.

 

steering box bleeder0001.JPG

 

To be fair, I believe spare pump 1 was the original pump for this car. And it may have been flooded.  When I opened it, it did have some scale and rust in the reservoir, which came right out.  But chances are the vanes in the stator were also rusted, and the orifices were compromised.  Spare pump 2 was clean insides, and when the fluid was put in it flowed good the way it should.

 

Spare Pump # 20001.JPG

 

Anyway I just wanted to note a few things regarding this pump.  It appears the original paint was Buick Green. There is black paint over the green, but I cannot remember when or where I got this pump.  Another note, the pulley is silver.  This is the pulley off pump 1, which is the one I think came with this car.  The top I used is the one from the pump that started this fiasco.  The cover for pump 1 was badly oxidized on the insides.  The cover for pump 2 looked worse than it was and I did not clean it till after I already had this one on here. 

 

So , on the road test, this pump was very quiet till around 60 MPH or so again. Then I had some vibration, but not anywhere's near the original pump I took off. And the power steering seems much better with this pump than the original.  I think I'll leave this one on and when I get the $$$ I'll send the original and spare pump 1 together to be rebuilt.

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8 hours ago, JohnD1956 said:

I think I'll leave this one on and when I get the $$$ I'll send the original and spare pump 1 together to be rebuilt.

 

Make sure you find a good reliable rebuilder that stands behind their work and is preferably local so when they say you did it, you can go after them in person.

 

Interesting about the Buick Green. Maybe it was attached to the engine before it was painted, and then they masked off the rest of the engine to paint the pump? Wouldn't be too far fetched, the starter I pulled off of a donor car also had Buick Green overspray. My replacement pump I pulled was stuck in the mud below where a radiator would normally sit so the outside of it was pretty gone at that point sans a little black pain on the side that was in the mud.

 

When I tried rebuilding my original pump, I guess I aerated the pressure relief valve because I couldn't get it to run right. I'm curious now if you take a pump with a known working relief valve and disassemble the unit submerged in ATF fluid, if you can rebuild it submerged and then wipe off the excess and run it that way? Buick5563 had the same issue with his pump rebuilds if I recall correctly. All I know is before disassembly, the power steering pump worked fine albeit a bit noisy from the bearing, disassembled and reassembled and it didn't work. I sent it off back east, got it back, put it on the car and it lasted maybe 3 weeks as it erode the back side of my pulley because they incorrectly installed a washer as the bearing spacer that, once worn through by the pulley, allowed the pulley to free float on the shaft and eventually erode both it and the shaft away. They painted it up real nice, though, better than I had. I have had zero issues with the pump I pulled out of the mud, though. My only gripe is that it's still rusty, sitting there in a clean engine bay. I've kept it as a reminder to not place my trust in the hands of those who claim to be experts.

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The PS bracket are supposed to be green, since they are mounted by a head bolt and two others that pass through the cooling system.  Hence it had to be installed before it could be factory tested, hence it got painted green.  Then the black pump would be added on later.

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I totally agree with you Msgr, but the green paint cannot be denied.  During cleaning it looked to me that the black paint was over the green, which all seems illogical.  Who would have taken the time on the assembly line to repaint this thing black? 

 

The good news for me is my car is not perfect, and I do not intend to make it that way.  I plan to paint the pump green, and the reservoir black, with the silver pulley.  Hopefully with a nice paint job there, no one will notice my peeling valve covers or oil coated frame.  

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I guess anything's possible. The more important question is; is this pump running the way the average pump does?  Obviously the pump puts out a constant flow and when the power assist is not needed, the flow is directed through the bypass valve. That is set to open at a certain pressure, and I wonder if the opening of the valve is whats causing the pulsing vibration? 

 

In the 56 manual it shows the fluid passage up to the point where the fluid enters the bypass chamber.  Then I assume, based on the pictures, that the fluid re-enters the pump, not the reservoir.   I am wondering if the pumps on other cars have this similar vibration and how strong it is.  I can feel this by laying my hand on the pump and raising the idle to around 1500 RPM.  In my case the vibration is fairly strong, but very short. Therefore, I assume that the vibration is the few tenths of a second just before the relief valve opens. In this pump,  it comes and goes regularly, it's not steady.  On the road, with this pump, I don't feel the vibration inside the car till I get to the 55-65 MPH range.  Is anyone willing to check this symptom against your car? 

 

I hate to send a good working pump out to be rebuilt, just to have it perform the exact same way upon return. 

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The only time I can say I experienced any pulse or vibration was right after I installed it. The pump took a few days to properly purge all air from the system, even after a thorough bleed. Afterwards, I have had zero issue with it. Also, the bypass does send fluid back to the reservoir. Take a look at your old pump, the manifold has two openings - one for in and one for relief out. If you feel adventurous and decide to remove the manifold and reservoir, you can get a clean look at the pressure relief valve in the hole closest to the pressure out line.

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Thanks Benjamin.  I might just take a shot at disassembling spare pump 1.  When I look inside my reservoir, I only see one opening for fluid intake, and then the return line from the steering box. It would be interesting to see the innards!

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I have Spare Pump 2 ( SP2) on the car now.  Been driving the car a little each day to make the pump run and see if the vibration would work out of it.  It seems better each day and I no longer feel the vibration in the steering wheel at idle.  Twice I drove it with no vibration but other times it always has at least some.  So I'm going to keep driving it for a while longer and see if it works itself out. 

 

Meanwhile, since Spare Pump 1 (SP1) seemed to run smoothest, I want to try it again. But first I need to determine if I have an internal issue causing the fluid to get whipped to a froth in a few seconds of running.  When I had it on the car I could spin the shaft by hand with little to no resistance.  But just a few seconds of run time and it was noisy as the fluid broke into a froth.  I wondered if the vanes on the shaft were stuck, allowing the oil to flow backwards into the supply path and reservoir. And after studying the manual, I decided to give this pump one last try. 

 

I got a flare cap for the outlet and poured enough PB Blaster ( from a gallon can) into the pump to cover the inlet and outlet ports.  It's been sitting since Tuesday. Today I was near it so I spun the shaft by hand, and it immediately built pressure.   Now I wonder if the by-pass valve is stuck.  So I'm going to let it continue to soak for another couple of days and then see if it's better. 

 

Just not completely sure how to flush the used PB Blaster out, but will probably just run a quart of PS Fluid through it. then give it another try on the car.

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Froth comes from air in the system.  The shop manual describes this.   When refilling the pump, turn the wheel from stop to stop, and then top off the reservoir.   No connection to the vibration issue.

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I understand that theory, but it cannot explain away the continuous breakdown of the PS Fluid in SP1.  I did follow the air purge procedure in the manual.  SP1 broke into a froth in multiple 30 second run periods after the air purge.  Meanwhile SP2 had a few air bubbles in the fluid after it's initial run, and has not broken into a froth since installation.   So something else is going on. 

 

Since SP1 has held the pb blaster while soaking, I cannot believe the pump itself has any external air leaks. And I know lines were tight while it was on the car cause there were no oil spills on the valve cover or exhaust manifolds during it's attempts to run it in.  Without disassembly I may never know what was happening internally.  I can't disassemble till I source the gaskets.  But shouldn't turning the pump shaft by hand, with the exit port capped, result in opening of the bypass circuit and return of the fluid to the reservoir? 

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Turning by hand won't do you anything.  The pump needs some RPS to get working.

 

Are you keeping the fluid level to spec?  I don't want to insult, and only ask because for years of driving my '54s, if the fluid was only a little bit down, it would suck air and froth up.

 

Good luck...

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I've changed the pump on my '56 only a couple of times in 40 years, and I can only add a bit to this discussion. I agree that the air seems to be harder to get out of the system than the manual seems to indicate. My car is also out in storage, so I can't check it out right now. I have never noticed the kind of vibration you describe on mine, except when the pump went bad several years ago, otherwise it has always been smooth and quiet running. I don't have the experience in rebuilding these, wish I could help you more, John.

Keith

 

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Thanks Keith and all.  It has been predicted that winter in this area starts this coming Monday, so I'm not going to rush anything.  I did have it out again today and it's good enough to drive as is.  When the holidays are over I'll go back to doing something further. 

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12 hours ago, JohnD1956 said:

It has been predicted that winter in this area starts this coming Monday,

That's the forecast for us on the North side of the border too. I'm going to try to get the '41 out for a nice cruise again too!

Keith

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  • 5 months later...

Took a step to relieve my apprehension over driving the 56 long distances. 

I'll have to paint them as they are bare metal right now, and then I'm thinking of some new tires...wide whites...(gasp!)  LOL

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1 hour ago, JohnD1956 said:

Took a step to relieve my apprehension over driving the 56 long distances. 

I'll have to paint them as they are bare metal right now, and then I'm thinking of some new tires...wide whites...(gasp!)  LOL

590b3e5aec1f5_05041710311.thumb.jpg.d20047b2ff029e59800129bc55868a3e.jpg590b3ea626336_0504171031a1.thumb.jpg.669615d37a97bf190879ab5696409e95.jpg590b3f0c7ca0c_05041710331.thumb.jpg.9b1464a26ee021a079f6bb8ef340f9cc.jpg

Details?

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You can get Les Schwab to powder coat the rims $25/ea. Just tell them you're buying tires later and then when you get them back, tell them you found some elsewhere... :ph34r:

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Stockton Wheels in CA.  They sourced a set of centers, disassembled from the original rims and welded the centers into new safety rims which are also built for Disc Brakes, although I am not converting from the drum brakes.  Have ordered 5 but only got 4 so far.  They strip em and ship them bare metal.  I took them to my service garage and opened the boxes right there where each rim was tested for balance and runout.  Worst case wheel requires .05 to balance.

 

Not the cheapest alternative, but safe rims are priceless to me.

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  • 2 weeks later...

After investigation of powder-coating I decided it was just too expensive. The pan hubcaps will just scratch it and in my area the price was $75. Per color, per wheel. Spray paints were only $25.00 for all the rims and since everything was blasted to begin with it made the choice real easy. 

0517171148.thumb.jpg.9b74b00734387f6d4c4f1950895320c5.jpg

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