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Ava, my grandfather's 1938 Dodge D8 Sedan


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Reference some of your items in post #75...

The cap you show is the oil fill cap. It is also a "Heavy Duty" design, made to filter the air flow through the lower engine area. This cap, along with the breather on the other side of the engine are the areas where the air inside the block by the crank shaft gets moved in and out of the block. These air movement areas are "filtered" on the heavy duty systems. One end on your car uses that oil filler cap that has the copper turnings in it which would be very lightly oil soaked at the time of an oil change, just like the air filter. And the other end is the "blow by road draft tube" that is on the opposite corner of the engine block. Look for a tube coming out of the block on the right rear side of the block below the manifolds and just ahead of the bell housing for the clutch. That is where the part I showed the photo of in post #73 fits. If the road draft tube is NOT a heavy duty one, it is just a tube with a 90 degree bend at the top. If the car is using the "Heavy Duty" filtering system (which seems to be the indication), there is that filter can used at the 90 degree bend instead of just tube.

Nice look to the air cleaner too! Who would have thought that the air cleaner would be the first restored part? Had to jump in some place though. But it does look sweet!

Photos will be needed to describe the connectors you are having trouble with on the side splash shields. These are not, best I can tell, parts that were used on the '36 so I am not much help with out seeing them.

I don't think I would use "1930's" WD-40 technique on the dash fronts and here's why. The fancy wood graining on the glove box door (and other wood look parts) is actually a decal called "Di-Noc". We know from other uses that WD-40 can be used to release the adhesive on labels and other things and since it is a petroleum based chemical it could possibly dissolve some plastics. The "Di-Noc" is essentially a very thin plastic sheet with a very thin adhesive on the back. It is possible that the WD-40 could attack both of those things. Either way - that would be bad. These parts were initially chrome plated and then the "Di-Noc" decal was affixed to make it look like it is a wood piece with a chrome trim edge and handle area.

You may want to do some testing or research as to how to "restore" these pieces before doing much other than a light detergent cleaning with a thorough rinse and slow dry afterward. If you have rust, you may be able to use a rust cleaner like "Evapo-Rust" or a thin mix of oxalic acid but again - BE VERY CAUTIOUS with these ideas. They do not seem to disturb paint BUT I am not sure how this decal would react. There may be an area of the dash that is covered or inconspicuous that you can try this stuff on but do take your time and test it out.

I am also thinking that if the penetrating oil does not seem to be doing "anything" with the block, you may want to try either of these rust removing chemicals, full listed strength, in the cylinders to cut through the rust. Be aware of course, they do not have any lubricating power as such so consider that if the block lets go and things start to move. you may want to get it all out as much as possible and then introduce regular oil as the parts start to move.

Just some thoughts. Let's hear from you all if there are other ideas out there.

Have fun. - Be patient!

Edited by 1936 D2 (see edit history)
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You know, when I look much closer at the photo of the glove box door (very nice photos I may add - I can magnify nicely), I see that the trim around the edge IS separate! It has a split at the top with a band covering the split! There looks to be a wrinkle at the top of the "woodgraining" at about 1:00 o'clock on the door's frame. So, it seems as though the decaled metal is separate from the trim! A bonus for restoration! You should be able to remove the trim ring and the latch handle cup and be able to work on the wood grain and the trim with separate processes!

Cool! It also may be possible then that the dash itself is just paint and not a style of woodgraining as is the case on the '36. That also would ease the restoration process!

In that case, once you have the trim, covers and gauges off the dash, maybe try the "CLR" treatment. Or possibly use the "Evapo-Rust" or oxalic acid. Any of those may be able to get the rust off the painted areas and allow for a 600 grit sanding then over spray with a clear polyurethane. Should look very nice without a bunch of expensive work at this time!

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On the woodgrain: The trim pieces on the glove box door are separate as is the center piece and the instrument cluster. The cluster piece with wood grain is actually one (cool) die cast piece. The wood grain is applied to the solid area that separates the dials. I do not know how the wood grain was done. It does not lift as a decal but rather flakes. On the piece in my hand you can't see it's wood grain - just flaking paint.

On the p15-d24 forum there have been some discussions related to how wood grain was done on an industrial scale back in the day - apparently there is no definitive answer?

I did use WD-40 on my dash without ill effects - maybe I was just lucky. To me it looks like when you see the rust pop through the grain it's too late.

Tom

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One idea I have had with regard to the 'stuck' engine is to remove the head and oil pan. Can you see the underside of the pistons? Disconnect a big end cap and with a suitable brass rod as a drift, carefully knock the piston up from underneath. With luck there won't be a ridge at the top of the bore to stop the top ring. Repeat the process untill the engine is free. You will want to replace the rings at least I would have thought.

As I said, just an idea.

Ray.

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Reference some of your items in post #75...

The cap you show is the oil fill cap. It is also a "Heavy Duty" design, made to filter the air flow through the lower engine area. This cap, along with the breather on the other side of the engine are the areas where the air inside the block by the crank shaft gets moved in and out of the block. These air movement areas are "filtered" on the heavy duty systems. One end on your car uses that oil filler cap that has the copper turnings in it which would be very lightly oil soaked at the time of an oil change, just like the air filter. And the other end is the "blow by road draft tube" that is on the opposite corner of the engine block. Look for a tube coming out of the block on the right rear side of the block below the manifolds and just ahead of the bell housing for the clutch. That is where the part I showed the photo of in post #73 fits. If the road draft tube is NOT a heavy duty one, it is just a tube with a 90 degree bend at the top. If the car is using the "Heavy Duty" filtering system (which seems to be the indication), there is that filter can used at the 90 degree bend instead of just tube.

Nice look to the air cleaner too! Who would have thought that the air cleaner would be the first restored part? Had to jump in some place though. But it does look sweet!

Photos will be needed to describe the connectors you are having trouble with on the side splash shields. These are not, best I can tell, parts that were used on the '36 so I am not much help with out seeing them.

I shall post pics of the offending fasteners.

I don't think I would use "1930's" WD-40 technique on the dash fronts and here's why. The fancy wood graining on the glove box door (and other wood look parts) is actually a decal called "Di-Noc". We know from other uses that WD-40 can be used to release the adhesive on labels and other things and since it is a petroleum based chemical it could possibly dissolve some plastics. The "Di-Noc" is essentially a very thin plastic sheet with a very thin adhesive on the back. It is possible that the WD-40 could attack both of those things. Either way - that would be bad. These parts were initially chrome plated and then the "Di-Noc" decal was affixed to make it look like it is a wood piece with a chrome trim edge and handle area.

You may want to do some testing or research as to how to "restore" these pieces before doing much other than a light detergent cleaning with a thorough rinse and slow dry afterward. If you have rust, you may be able to use a rust cleaner like "Evapo-Rust" or a thin mix of oxalic acid but again - BE VERY CAUTIOUS with these ideas. They do not seem to disturb paint BUT I am not sure how this decal would react. There may be an area of the dash that is covered or inconspicuous that you can try this stuff on but do take your time and test it out.

I am also thinking that if the penetrating oil does not seem to be doing "anything" with the block, you may want to try either of these rust removing chemicals, full listed strength, in the cylinders to cut through the rust. Be aware of course, they do not have any lubricating power as such so consider that if the block lets go and things start to move. you may want to get it all out as much as possible and then introduce regular oil as the parts start to move.

Just some thoughts. Let's hear from you all if there are other ideas out there.

Have fun. - Be patient!

I will try your suggestions as well on unsticking pistons.

I very gently cleaned the glove box lid with a mild cleanser and my bare hand. I could feel that the decal was soft and relatively porous so I am going to avoid doing much at all to it.

You know, when I look much closer at the photo of the glove box door (very nice photos I may add - I can magnify nicely), I see that the trim around the edge IS separate! It has a split at the top with a band covering the split! There looks to be a wrinkle at the top of the "woodgraining" at about 1:00 o'clock on the door's frame. So, it seems as though the decaled metal is separate from the trim! A bonus for restoration! You should be able to remove the trim ring and the latch handle cup and be able to work on the wood grain and the trim with separate processes!

Cool! It also may be possible then that the dash itself is just paint and not a style of woodgraining as is the case on the '36. That also would ease the restoration process!

In that case, once you have the trim, covers and gauges off the dash, maybe try the "CLR" treatment. Or possibly use the "Evapo-Rust" or oxalic acid. Any of those may be able to get the rust off the painted areas and allow for a 600 grit sanding then over spray with a clear polyurethane. Should look very nice without a bunch of expensive work at this time!

On the woodgrain: The trim pieces on the glove box door are separate as is the center piece and the instrument cluster. The cluster piece with wood grain is actually one (cool) die cast piece. The wood grain is applied to the solid area that separates the dials. I do not know how the wood grain was done. It does not lift as a decal but rather flakes. On the piece in my hand you can't see it's wood grain - just flaking paint.

On the p15-d24 forum there have been some discussions related to how wood grain was done on an industrial scale back in the day - apparently there is no definitive answer?

I did use WD-40 on my dash without ill effects - maybe I was just lucky. To me it looks like when you see the rust pop through the grain it's too late.

Tom

You are correct on the dash being paint. Here is a pic of a nicer dash:

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One idea I have had with regard to the 'stuck' engine is to remove the head and oil pan. Can you see the underside of the pistons? Disconnect a big end cap and with a suitable brass rod as a drift, carefully knock the piston up from underneath. With luck there won't be a ridge at the top of the bore to stop the top ring. Repeat the process untill the engine is free. You will want to replace the rings at least I would have thought.

As I said, just an idea.

Ray.

I am going to pull the head and oil pan anyway. If it hasn't broken free by then, that could be an option. Will probably use a wooden drift pin first.

Yes I was under the impression that it is not a decal but a painted ( for lack of a better term ) woodgrain affect as it is in my own car. Like D-2 said though always use caution

It's both. Painted dash, and decal on the glove box.

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A quick day, today. First four pictures are of the right front wheel well access panel. The loose piece is the bottom one. Then there is a few pictures of the hood clips which appear to be designed to be knocked out to allow for upper panel removal. I love the baby fire extinguisher, this one is somehow fully charged. It cleaned up quite well as you can see. Took some pics of the head before removing it, so I know where all the bolts and stuff should go. The oil filter is cool as well. I flushed the radiator, and it appears to be fairly clean to start with.

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As you can see by the pictures, I got the head off to survey the mess inside the engine. I didn't realize the exhaust valves were staggered like that. Interesting. Is the head gasket reusable? It appears to be pure copper. A couple interesting points; my work partner stopped by on vacation and pointed out the heater controls, which I found interesting. And I noticed the oil change sticker for the first time so took a picture of it, as it's interesting. As you can see, the engine is still stubbornly stuck, though I gave each piston a shiver with an axe handle driven by a small mallet, just to encourage things, if it will.

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Now would be the time to do a valve job, at least. Buy a new copper/asbestos head gasket and new head bolts. Use some anti-seize compound on the threads when replacing the bolts. Find the torque values and follow the tightening pattern. Spray the new head gasket with Ultra-Copper when installing it. Make sure you get the head "planed", or surfaced by a competent machine shop, should cost around $65. - $75. clean top of block and check very closely for any cracks especially on the exhaust valve seats and in between the cylinders. You may need to go further and pull the pan and remove pistons to check bore and rings. Now would be the time. Keep all parts in order the way they came out and their placement in engine. Don't reuse any gaskets. Go on and get that water pump rebuilt, they always seem to let go when you're least expecting it. I could go on and on, but I'll let you ask the questions. Best, Pete.

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This is Joe - I have the extra engine we spoke about earlier in the thread.

I wouldn't and besides you cannot reuse the head gasket. You need to buy a new one.

I would also be careful about the axe handle-to-the-piston method you wrote about. Those pistons are aluminum and you can very easily punch a hole thru them if you are not careful.

I had a 49 Plymouth a long time ago that was a running car until my brother shampooed the engine. Somehow, some of that cleaning chemical must have made it into the intake and into the cylinders. The car never ran after that and then the engine locked up. I soaked that thing with the head off for almost a year. My uncle and I even hooked the car up to his Suburban with a tow bar and put the car in gear - net result - skid marks in my driveway. That engine NEVER freed up. When a friend offered to rebuild it for me we had to use a 25 lb sledge hammer and 4x4's to drive the pistons out of the block. My buddy owned a machine shop and said he never saw an engine so "stuck".

I am not saying your engine will not free up eventually but you may have to disassemble it to do so.

Have you tried diesel fuel in the cylinders? A guy I met swears by it - not at it - and he says he has freed up many engines soaking them with diesel fuel.

From the looks of your pics the pistons/rings are frozen to the cylinder walls. That is why the fluids are not draining past the piston.

Another friend, yeah, it appears I have tons of friends but I don't, taught me a trick to turn the engine over manually. The best way, he said, and I tried it and it worked, is to remove the flywheel cover and use a very large screwdriver in the flywheel teeth and try to move the engine that way. You have direct leverage on the engine. Be careful not to snap any teeth off of the flywheel, though. I had a Buick that I couldn't turn the engine with a battery in it or with a socket and breaker bar on the crank pulley. I tried his method and bingo - the engine turned over. You can also drop the oil pan before trying this and spray the crank journals and the cylinder walls with oil,diesel,rust penetrating oil... this will help free things up AND lube everything, too.

Joe

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I would drop the head off at the machine shop and get it done, tell them to clean it up and magnaflux it before they do anything, this will tell you if the head is even worth doing. If there are no problems than let them do the heads, make sure you bring it to a quality machine shop in your area, I would be leery of places like Napa or some discount auto parts stores that offer a re-build service.

They may offer you money saving steps like knurling the valves which is a no-no. Many people will choose this option because its cheaper but it is not a long term repair. Let them replace any valve seats, does that have hardened seats? Check it out and make sure it does. Get them planed if need be. Both heads might cost you 150-250 bucks but I would not think any more than that and they will be done probably for as long as you will ever need.

Can you access the oil pan for removal? At this point since things are still not freed up I would start considering dropping the pan and then the crank. If you do this than you can place a similar sized object on the top of the pistons making sure that it is as close to the outer circumference as the pistons themselves and try to knock the pistons out.

I would start out lightly and then let soak a few days and work on it like this, if it starts that it really needs alot of force than chances are youve got a mess inside those cylinders and you might want to start thinking about a re-build more seriously.

Maybe dropping the crank is beyond what you feel comfortable with, its a big job, I have quite a bit of engine rebuilding experience myself but all engines are not the same, there are tricks and things that need to be known that are specific to particular engines in many cases and for instance I would not know anything about these in your case so I myself would be leery about attempting to pull the crank and have it go back together properly.

I could and would do it because I am confident I could figure it out, I would read lot and get on the phone to talk with similar engine owners but maybe you would not. I dont know your situation. You may want to consider pulling the engine and taking it to a competent re-builder.

Rebuilding the engine everything included will cost you in the thousand to 1500 range. ( including that head work ) Alot of money but again depending on your situation in the long run you may be better off. Have to factor in your time and the possibility that you may get it apart and become discouraged and just give up which is what most often happens in this hobby and that would be a shame.

You could still buy that spare motor but believe me when I say you are rolling the dice, you do not know what you are getting, you could be getting a high mileage engine that smokes or will shortly have problems later on down the road.

I see every day in my business used part being used, when it comes to engines and trannys the salvage yard will tell you in has X amount of miles and it come out of X year car, this is in most cases a dog and pony show, they dont know how many miles and they could not possibly care any less if they tried.

In my experience alot of private sellers are no different.

Re-build the engine in there. You will know what you have, the numbers will all match and you will know what you have:)

If you dont have the money to do that than save the money and dont try to make short cuts like replacing it with a different engine. Its an old Dodge, its sat this many years waiting for someone to do it right, dont be the guy that does it wrong.

Edited by 1930 (see edit history)
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Excellent advice for us all, in my opinion, Jason. The thing which would worry me about dropping the crank, especially on a six cylinder, would be working under the car unless I had access to a pit or car lift and trying to do it on my own would also be difficult because it is quite heavy to handle without pinching fingers and or getting dirt in somewhere on assembly. So, if it were me I would pull the engine and follow your advice from there.

I don't think I have heared of 'knurling' the valves - could you explain please? Probably just a language thing.

Cheers,

Ray.

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The metal tag in the last photo indicates a rebuilt engine, to the best of my knowledge. I am curious... What is the red stuff you are using in the cylinders? Why is #2 cylinder a different color? Rust or a different fluid maybe?

Looks like #6 could be free? It's not holding fluid anyway and the walls don't look too bad. You may need to remove the head gasket and build a clay dam around #'s 3 & 4 so that you can get them to soak too. Try not to get the modeling clay into the stud holes or water passages though. use small corks and put the bolts/studs back in to block the holes. You may want to find a different rust cutting fluid from what you are using now. Personal preference I guess.

I had a friend that had a Nash in similar condition to yours. He dug it out of an old shed. It had been there since the 50's. He used penetrating oil first. That didn't seem to work after about 3 months so he then tried a mix of diesel fuel and penetrating oil. After about 6 months he finally persuaded it to move. It actually ran pretty well once it was free!

The heater controls really are interesting! Seems like one of them can turn off the heater's water supply right from the control panel. That will be an interesting setup once it is all freed up and working nicely! Quite the aftermarket outfit.

Oh, by the way, I can't quite make out the first part of the mileage on the sticker nor the date. How does the mileage match up with the odometer?

Keep us informed. You are doing a great job!

Edited by 1936 D2 (see edit history)
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I just spent an hour drafting a reply to the above posts, and the forum deleted it when I pressed submit.

If I decide to rebuild the engine, I will probably do all the other, supporting stuff, first.

I need to reprioritize what I do with it at this time.

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Oh geez! That sucks!!! Had that happen only twice to me in the past but it sure is frustrating. I have noticed this new version of the Forum does "Auto Save" every minute or so. I wonder where it "saves"? Maybe you can get to it - find it through your profile??? Hmmm...

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I would drop the head off at the machine shop and get it done, tell them to clean it up and magnaflux it before they do anything, this will tell you if the head is even worth doing. If there are no problems than let them do the heads, make sure you bring it to a quality machine shop in your area, I would be leery of places like Napa or some discount auto parts stores that offer a re-build service.

We have a NASCAR track across the road; lots of engine shops in the area. I will do some asking around as to who does the best work on antique stuff.

They may offer you money saving steps like knurling the valves which is a no-no. Many people will choose this option because its cheaper but it is not a long term repair. Let them replace any valve seats, does that have hardened seats? Check it out and make sure it does. Get them planed if need be. Both heads might cost you 150-250 bucks but I would not think any more than that and they will be done probably for as long as you will ever need.

No idea about whether hardened seats or not. Need to be to run unleaded gas, so that is a must.

Can you access the oil pan for removal? At this point since things are still not freed up I would start considering dropping the pan and then the crank. If you do this than you can place a similar sized object on the top of the pistons making sure that it is as close to the outer circumference as the pistons themselves and try to knock the pistons out.

I would start out lightly and then let soak a few days and work on it like this, if it starts that it really needs alot of force than chances are youve got a mess inside those cylinders and you might want to start thinking about a re-build more seriously.

Here is where I need to make the decision; why go to all that effort, THEN decide to rebuild. Wouldn't it make more sense to yank the engine, and have it rebuilt/do it myself? Am just thinking of what I'd do if I were still an airplane mechanic. (believe it or not, these cars are a heck of a lot harder to work on than airplanes).

Maybe dropping the crank is beyond what you feel comfortable with, its a big job, I have quite a bit of engine rebuilding experience myself but all engines are not the same, there are tricks and things that need to be known that are specific to particular engines in many cases and for instance I would not know anything about these in your case so I myself would be leery about attempting to pull the crank and have it go back together properly.

I could and would do it because I am confident I could figure it out, I would read lot and get on the phone to talk with similar engine owners but maybe you would not. I dont know your situation. You may want to consider pulling the engine and taking it to a competent re-builder.

Rebuilding the engine everything included will cost you in the thousand to 1500 range. ( including that head work ) Alot of money but again depending on your situation in the long run you may be better off. Have to factor in your time and the possibility that you may get it apart and become discouraged and just give up which is what most often happens in this hobby and that would be a shame.

Actually, since you put a price on it, $1000-1500 is not that much, compared to the total cost of getting it turned into a reliable runner. My intention is not to baby this thing, but to put some miles on it. To me, the best thing I could do is run it enough to have to rebuild it again, while maintaining it well.

<snip>

Re-build the engine in there. You will know what you have, the numbers will all match and you will know what you have:)

If you dont have the money to do that than save the money and dont try to make short cuts like replacing it with a different engine. Its an old Dodge, its sat this many years waiting for someone to do it right, dont be the guy that does it wrong.

The metal tag in the last photo indicates a rebuilt engine, to the best of my knowledge. I am curious... What is the red stuff you are using in the cylinders? Why is #2 cylinder a different color? Rust or a different fluid maybe?

Looks like #6 could be free? It's not holding fluid anyway and the walls don't look too bad. You may need to remove the head gasket and build a clay dam around #'s 3 & 4 so that you can get them to soak too. Try not to get the modeling clay into the stud holes or water passages though. use small corks and put the bolts/studs back in to block the holes. You may want to find a different rust cutting fluid from what you are using now. Personal preference I guess.

I had a friend that had a Nash in similar condition to yours. He dug it out of an old shed. It had been there since the 50's. He used penetrating oil first. That didn't seem to work after about 3 months so he then tried a mix of diesel fuel and penetrating oil. After about 6 months he finally persuaded it to move. It actually ran pretty well once it was free!

The heater controls really are interesting! Seems like one of them can turn off the heater's water supply right from the control panel. That will be an interesting setup once it is all freed up and working nicely! Quite the aftermarket outfit.

Oh, by the way, I can't quite make out the first part of the mileage on the sticker nor the date. How does the mileage match up with the odometer?

Keep us informed. You are doing a great job!

The "red stuff" is a mix of all the penetrating fluid (WD-40, PB Blaster, Kroil and Mouse Milk) that I had on hand, some MMO and some tranny fluid. Noone around here carries anything but little cans of penetrating fluid.

This car is exposing just how fragile memory is. Everyone in the family remember it as a maroon car; in reality it is golden bronze-ish. Dad thought it had 36,xxx miles, I can see, now that I have looked close that the first "3" is actually an "8". The rebuilt engine tag also supports the "8".

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No idea about whether hardened seats or not. Need to be to run unleaded gas, so that is a must.

Yes. They ARE hardened seats. I don't remember when that started but I do know my '36 has hardened seats so I am sure your block has them too.

<snip>

The "red stuff" is a mix of all the penetrating fluid (WD-40, PB Blaster, Kroil and Mouse Milk) that I had on hand, some MMO and some tranny fluid. Noone around here carries anything but little cans of penetrating fluid.

I bought most of my fluids from a farm supplier called "Fleet Farm" around here. You may have something similar in your area. I understand "Harbour Freight" also sells "Evapo Rust" if you are going that way.

Sounds like that "mix" you have in there should work. But it is unknown how all that stuff chemically resides together. I hope one does not neutralize the other!

This car is exposing just how fragile memory is. Everyone in the family remember it as a maroon car; in reality it is golden bronze-ish. Dad thought it had 36,xxx miles, I can see, now that I have looked close that the first "3" is actually an "8". The rebuilt engine tag also supports the "8".

That sounds more typical. Your car made it through the War time. That, I'm sure, is another interesting story. Sounds like it was well used then, if stored in the '40's.

I am still curious about the stuff written on the oil change sticker. ;-)

</snip>

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Excellent advice for us all, in my opinion, Jason. The thing which would worry me about dropping the crank, especially on a six cylinder, would be working under the car unless I had access to a pit or car lift and trying to do it on my own would also be difficult because it is quite heavy to handle without pinching fingers and or getting dirt in somewhere on assembly. So, if it were me I would pull the engine and follow your advice from there.

I don't think I have heared of 'knurling' the valves - could you explain please? Probably just a language thing.

Cheers,

Ray.

Knurling the valves is slang, I guess it would be more correct to say knurling the valve guides, a process where they run a tool thru the guide, raises the metal within the guide to make a tighter fit or take the slopp out of the valves.

I would not either pull the crank with the engine sitting in its bay but I dont know what his mechanical ability is or how committed he is to take it as far as pulling the motor so I was just trying to offer things to consider.

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Quote.........Here is where I need to make the decision; why go to all that effort, THEN decide to rebuild. Wouldn't it make more sense to yank the engine, and have it rebuilt/do it myself? Am just thinking of what I'd do if I were still an airplane mechanic. (believe it or not, these cars are a heck of a lot harder to work on than airplanes)............yes it would make more sense, in my opinion you are pissin in the wind at this point but I dont want to say something that would discourage you further so I was trying to offer alternatives so that maybe you could at least hear it run and that would give you more motivation to keep going on it.

You have a major project and motivation is hard to come by when tackling something that big.

If it were my car and I found it with the engine locked up ( and I had the money and love for the car ) I wouldnt mess with even trying to un-lock it cause chances are you are gonna have at least one bad cylinder where the ring ( if that is what is stopping it from spinning ) has rusted itself to the cylinder wall and although I guess maybe you could possibly hone it out chances are you wont be able too ( if your luck is anything like mine ) and it will have to be bored and fitted with oversized something.

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Yes. They ARE hardened seats. I don't remember when that started but I do know my '36 has hardened seats so I am sure your block has them too.

<snip>

I bought most of my fluids from a farm supplier called "Fleet Farm" around here. You may have something similar in your area. I understand "Harbour Freight" also sells "Evapo Rust" if you are going that way.

Sounds like that "mix" you have in there should work. But it is unknown how all that stuff chemically resides together. I hope one does not neutralize the other!

That sounds more typical. Your car made it through the War time. That, I'm sure, is another interesting story. Sounds like it was well used then, if stored in the '40's.

I am still curious about the stuff written on the oil change sticker. ;-)

</snip>

I cant confirm anything but I would be leery about chemicals such as evaporust, they will more than likely etch the cylinder wall and you may be making some more work for yourself unless of course you plan on going thru it anyway.

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yes it would make more sense, in my opinion you are pissin in the wind at this point but I dont want to say something that would discourage you further so I was trying to offer alternatives so that maybe you could at least hear it run and that would give you more motivation to keep going on it.

You have a major project and motivation is hard to come by when tackling something that big.

If it were my car and I found it with the engine locked up ( and I had the money and love for the car) I wouldnt mess with even trying to un-lock it cause chances are you are gonna have at least one bad cylinder where the ring ( if that is what is stopping it from spinning ) has rusted itself to the cylinder wall and although I guess maybe you could possibly hone it out chances are you wont be able too ( if your luck is anything like mine ) and it will have to be bored and fitted with oversized something.

I am trying to figure out what you are saying here.

Are you advising to abandon the project completely, or are you saying to go ahead and get the engine rebuilt?

Right now, I am in the "discovery" phase of the project.

As a toy, spending money on this doesn't make sense. 1938 Dodges are as collectible as belly button lint. I knew this going in. But as a car I could drive around town, with a connection to my family, it's actually not that bad. For $5000 or so, I think I can make it go and stop, and have a place to sit inside. For $10,000, it would make a really nice car. It's probably work $8000 or so completely redone, so I know I'm not getting my money out of it, whatever I do. But I am looking at it as a long term project, which hopefully I can enjoy as I piddle with it.

Now would be a great time for someone to chime in, if they think I am off by a large margin in my thinking, though.... ;)

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Just a quick note, Evaporust works only on rust where there is NO oil or grease. It won't work through an oil film, I found that out! There is a product, found on-line in spray cans called "Gibbs Oil". They guarantee to un stick ANY rusted engine, it works! but one MUST follow their directions to the letter and seal the coated area with a rubber sheet or similar material for it to do it's thing. 120MM, I got my A&P license back in 1980, so one A&P to another, I know you've got the patience!

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I dont think you are waay off, depending on how nicely the car is done it would be worth easily double what you think to the right person whom would eventually come along and recognize a nicely done car. It would have to be very nice to be worth that amount though but it could be all day long.

But you would have to spend alot more money on it to get it to that stage, for the kind of money you are talking yes it could be made into a very nice driver but a long shot from showcasing on pebble beach

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Just a quick note, Evaporust works only on rust where there is NO oil or grease. It won't work through an oil film, I found that out! There is a product, found on-line in spray cans called "Gibbs Oil". They guarantee to un stick ANY rusted engine, it works! but one MUST follow their directions to the letter and seal the coated area with a rubber sheet or similar material for it to do it's thing. 120MM, I got my A&P license back in 1980, so one A&P to another, I know you've got the patience!

Thats good to know and now that you mention it I have heard of Gibbs but never used it. I have heard good things though

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Quote........... It is very complete, and the body is solid with on small rust through in the trunk,...........not many people whom start a project like this can say this, you are lucky to have such a good start.

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Im saying yank the engine and get it re-built, do it once and do it right

That is what my gut told me last night, once I got the head off. There are a lot of stuff I can do in the meantime. Like research who would take on a job like this.

Just a quick note, Evaporust works only on rust where there is NO oil or grease. It won't work through an oil film, I found that out! There is a product, found on-line in spray cans called "Gibbs Oil". They guarantee to un stick ANY rusted engine, it works! but one MUST follow their directions to the letter and seal the coated area with a rubber sheet or similar material for it to do it's thing. 120MM, I got my A&P license back in 1980, so one A&P to another, I know you've got the patience!

Yep. Have the patience, but also learn a certain economic "sense" if you will. I am leaning heavily toward just having the engine redone.

I dont think you are waay off, depending on how nicely the car is done it would be worth easily double what you think to the right person whom would eventually come along and recognize a nicely done car. It would have to be very nice to be worth that amount though but it could be all day long.

But you would have to spend alot more money on it to get it to that stage, for the kind of money you are talking yes it could be made into a very nice driver but a long shot from showcasing on pebble beach

I am looking at this now as two restoration projects. The first, being a mechanical restoration, where I attempt it on a systems level, and fix one system at a time. This will focus on making the car go, stop, have glass and fix lights and other electrical "stuff". I will either just clean the interior out and drive it "as is" or put a really cheap interior in it.

I will probably have the engine rebuilt, but will ask around more, first.

Then, as I am able to drive it around, I will pay more attention to details and bring it up to a better aesthetic standard.

If it never becomes a "museum piece" I will have achieved my mission.

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1930, You're the guy with the A&P. 120MM, keep plugging along---One thing I noticed in 120mm's pictures of the top of the block with head gasket, The gasket itself-- where it lays on the block, it seems the fire rings of gasket are exceptionally close together, telling me this engine has been bored out to it's max. I don't really remember if my '37 or '39 Plymouth head gasket fire rings being that close together, one was std. bore and the other was .040 over. Oversize head gaskets are purchased for larger size cylinders in many flat head engines, not only for a over-bore, but for heads that have had serious grinding done to them, either multiple grinds, or badly warped heads. If the head gasket is smaller than the cyl. bore, the piston will hit it. I would beg, borrow or steal an inside micrometer, or a "T" handle adjustable std. tool and find out what the story is with this block. It may be no good if it's a "run-out" and needs re boring. With a little bit of work, I think the engine is OK, bar no cracks in the cast iron, but they can be fixed too.

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1930, You're the guy with the A&P. 120MM, keep plugging along---One thing I noticed in 120mm's pictures of the top of the block with head gasket, The gasket itself-- where it lays on the block, it seems the fire rings of gasket are exceptionally close together, telling me this engine has been bored out to it's max. I don't really remember if my '37 or '39 Plymouth head gasket fire rings being that close together, one was std. bore and the other was .040 over. Oversize head gaskets are purchased for larger size cylinders in many flat head engines, not only for a over-bore, but for heads that have had serious grinding done to them, either multiple grinds, or badly warped heads. If the head gasket is smaller than the cyl. bore, the piston will hit it. I would beg, borrow or steal an inside micrometer, or a "T" handle adjustable std. tool and find out what the story is with this block. It may be no good if it's a "run-out" and needs re boring. With a little bit of work, I think the engine is OK, bar no cracks in the cast iron, but they can be fixed too.

Whats A&P ?

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That is what my gut told me last night, once I got the head off. There are a lot of stuff I can do in the meantime. Like research who would take on a job like this.

Yep. Have the patience, but also learn a certain economic "sense" if you will. I am leaning heavily toward just having the engine redone.

I am looking at this now as two restoration projects. The first, being a mechanical restoration, where I attempt it on a systems level, and fix one system at a time. This will focus on making the car go, stop, have glass and fix lights and other electrical "stuff". I will either just clean the interior out and drive it "as is" or put a really cheap interior in it.

I will probably have the engine rebuilt, but will ask around more, first.

Then, as I am able to drive it around, I will pay more attention to details and bring it up to a better aesthetic standard.

If it never becomes a "museum piece" I will have achieved my mission.

In my opinion this is exactly how I would go about it, I started a post saying pretty much this but deleted it because opinions are like you know what and everyone has one but again I would do just this, yank it, get it done, drive it and enjoy it, I say no go on the cheap interior though ( you car though ) I would rather drive it with the ratty and original.

Maybe later after you are driving and enjoying you can put a little more money in it.

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Whats A&P ?

Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic.

It means I can work on aircraft, but believe it or not, little actually transfers to cars.

I will mic the cylinders tonight. That might help in the going forward decision making.

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In my opinion this is exactly how I would go about it, I started a post saying pretty much this but deleted it because opinions are like you know what and everyone has one but again I would do just this, yank it, get it done, drive it and enjoy it, I say no go on the cheap interior though ( you car though ) I would rather drive it with the ratty and original.

Maybe later after you are driving and enjoying you can put a little more money in it.

The price of spending time and money on this car with my lovely bride's willing acquiescence is to get rid of the ratty interior. This, to me, is a cheap price. ;)

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The price of spending time and money on this car with my lovely bride's willing acquiescence is to get rid of the ratty interior. This, to me, is a cheap price. ;)

I just went thru all of your posts on this thread and I dont see any interior pictures, I am curious when you have a chance. Thanks

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I just went thru all of your posts on this thread and I dont see any interior pictures, I am curious when you have a chance. Thanks

Task #2 for tonight. Take pics of ratty (i.e.) nonexistent interior.

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