Ava, my grandfather's 1938 Dodge D8 Sedan

[120mm]

I would keep doing as you are doing and see if you can free up whatever is stuck, if not having any luck after letting it sit a few days ( and then maybe a few days more if not in a rush ) than you may want to consider pulling the head.

That's pretty much what I was thinking. I have time right now; and I may pull the head later anyway, but will try that first.

You are already doing the fuel tank so take a look at the fuel lines, are they junk ( rusty ) run something thru them and see that they are clear and do the same with fuel pump and carb.

While waiting for the penetrating oil to do its thing keep yourself busy maybe with other things like this.

Check the rad, does it hold fluids, disconnect the upper and lower hose, stick a garden hose in the rad and the block and flush it out.

The radiator was full of ancient antifreeze, so we know it holds fluid. Flushing isn't tough, though need to remember to not let water sit in it, as winter approaches...

Pull the oil pan, I bet you will find all sorts of nasty down there. Rinse it out with kerosine and set it aside until we are sure you can un-stick the motor.

Pretty much no matter what might be wrong with the engine to make it stick can be dealt with and for a whole lot less work and more than likely less money ( in the end when you consider all the details ) than replacing it so try and get that pinned in your head so that doing all of these other less exciting jobs will be more fun.

Theres alot of other things I am sure I am missing like pulling and finding new ignition components and cleaning up what dosent get replaced.

I'm assuming everything in the ignition system (rotor, distro cap, points, plugs, what's left of the wiring) needs replaced. I'm also assuming/hoping these are still readily available. I know there are a metric ton of these engines produced/still around.

Pull that air cleaner and rinse it out, is that oil bath cleaner, I am assuming it is. Dont know much about late model

It's oil bath, and the right side of the engine is coated to prove it. Grampa Herman has a lattice work of baling wire to give it support, though, and am wondering why he did that?

Consider draining the crap in the tranny and rear end and replenishing it with new, all this stuff takes alot of time and I bet if you were to take all my suggestions here you might be finished one week or two from when you read this.

If that dogone cylinder head isnt free by then you will at least know you tried your best and since most other things are taken care of you will feel better about putting a bit more time into pulling that head.

In my opinion though dont start dismantling too much at one time, take each and every project one at a time and finish it before moving onto something else.

Have fun

You've correctly identified my Achilles' heel with your last statement. I am the world's most enthusiastic taker a parter. Have told myself I will do one thing at a time on this.

[120mm]

On the stuck engine: Considering the amount of work you will have to put into the car, I would stop guessing and pull the cylinderhead now. Then you can evaluate the condition of the cylinder walls and also free up the stuck open valves pouring oil down the stems.

Question: The picture showing the passenger side of the firewall.....I see the two hoses to the heater but also a "can" with a valve(?) inside. What is that? Never seen one before.

Tom

Tom,

I'm certain the stuck open valve is because of FOD. If I can free it up, and get the machine running, I will reinspect and try rapping it with a wooden mallet. If that doesn't work, I'll pull the head.

Advice is about 50/50 right now on pulling the head or not. I have time to fiddle, so am holding off on the head.

The can you speak of, it hooks up to a silver painted tube via an accordian hose that takes in outside air at the side grille. I assumed it was fresh air for the heater/vent. Never really examined it closely.

If you look right above it, you'll see the bracket for a Dodge Brothers fire extinguisher. I removed it to save it from possible damage, but mine is still fully charged. I've found several cool things about this car. Like the original tool kit cover (mouse eaten, dammit) with the Dodge Brothers logo on it and snow chains in the trunk.

[120mm]

Standard "H" pattern.....reverse at the upper left.

Thanks!

[1936 D2]

You do such a good job of descriptive writing, I would suggest starting another "Wordpress" called something like "Grandpa Herman's Lady Friend Ava" or such. It would be a diary of your experiences over time with the car. You have an interesting start! Great read for future car enthusiasts!

[120mm]

You do such a good job of descriptive writing, I would suggest starting another "Wordpress" called something like "Grandpa Herman's Lady Friend Ava" or such. It would be a diary of your experiences over time with the car. You have an interesting start! Great read for future car enthusiasts!

Thanks. I just may do that.

[Sorensen_DK]

Tom,

I'm certain the stuck open valve is because of FOD. If I can free it up, and get the machine running, I will reinspect and try rapping it with a wooden mallet. If that doesn't work, I'll pull the head.

Advice is about 50/50 right now on pulling the head or not. I have time to fiddle, so am holding off on the head.

My primary concern would be rusted cylinder walls and possible damage if starting the engine. My donor car was parked and sat for 30 years. Engine turned (apart from stuck valves). I removed head and manifolds to make it easier to lift out the engine. It has the same milage as yours...all cylinders have rusted areas...your car sat for a long, long time.

In any case you decide what to do. I think it's really cool you saved another one from the rodders.

Tom

[Guest 1930]

Quote..........You've correctly identified my Achilles' heel with your last statement. I am the world's most enthusiastic taker a parter. Have told myself I will do one thing at a time on this..............Its not just you

[Guest 1930]

Quote......... Like the original tool kit cover............Would it be possible to send photos of what you do have to jhason2@yahoo.com

I usually ask this right off the bat but I have been sidetracked with some other re-search

[120mm]

Quote......... Like the original tool kit cover............Would it be possible to send photos of what you do have to jhason2@yahoo.com

I usually ask this right off the bat but I have been sidetracked with some other re-search

Am not sure exactly what this is. it has wires around the curved side and snaps along the straight side.

[120mm]

No photos this time, but I just spent part of this afternoon rocking Ava. It is slowly sliding out the door, but no unstuck engine, yet. I have patience and a lot of work to do, so am not worried.

I did manage to mess with the windows. I got a lot of broken glass cleaned out, and freed all 8 window mechanisms. 8? you may ask yourself. that's two pivoting front quarter windows, four roll down windows and two pivoting rear quarter windows.

With the roll down windows broken, only the passengers' side will actually go up and down. It takes a full sized and shaped window for them to function properly, so I rolled them down and left them down to save on the lacerations.

I also took apart the oil bath air filter, and oohed and aahed at the brand new looking filter element and inside. Looks like it just came from the factory.

I also figured out why everyone thought the car was maroon; Grampa never washed it, but he wore the paint off the window sills with his arm, which exposed the red primer. Also, hogs had rubbed against the body, and did the same. The only clean parts of the car were those two bits, and they looked reddish, so everyone just assumed it was maroon in color.

[120mm]

Quote..........You've correctly identified my Achilles' heel with your last statement. I am the world's most enthusiastic taker a parter. Have told myself I will do one thing at a time on this..............Its not just you

I love dismantling. Need to just stop and take it one bit at a time.

[Guest 1930]

I may be wrong but I believe you will find that to be your spare tire cover, just a quick guess though. Thanks for the pics, I personally like the original color, I like it because it is the color that it left the factory with and these factory tints have not been used in a long time and so it looks correct and in place.

I understand that it is not what everyone wants to see these days but it dosent take a genius in my opinion to understand why we really should not follow what the general population is doing nowadays.

I say dare to be different and maybe try and look at in a different way. You might be pleased with what you see after all.

[120mm]

I may be wrong but I believe you will find that to be your spare tire cover, just a quick guess though. Thanks for the pics, I personally like the original color, I like it because it is the color that it left the factory with and these factory tints have not been used in a long time and so it looks correct and in place.

I understand that it is not what everyone wants to see these days but it dosent take a genius in my opinion to understand why we really should not follow what the general population is doing nowadays.

I say dare to be different and maybe try and look at in a different way. You might be pleased with what you see after all.

Well, since I am cheap and fairly counter-culture, I am going to drive it around as is, provided I can get it running. Thanks for the tip on the spare tire cover. Too bad the mice got to it.

[Guest 1930]

Well, since I am cheap and fairly counter-culture, I am going to drive it around as is, provided I can get it running. Thanks for the tip on the spare tire cover. Too bad the mice got to it.

You will get it running if you want it badly enough.

[MikeC5]

You have a nice start there indeed. I have to agree that it may be better to take the head off and inspect those cylinders before you try and start it. Or if you happen to know someone with a bore scope you can borrow. Good luck with it!

[beetles]

Hi 4 foot (oh sorry, that should be 1200mm) , Good luck with the Dodge. It is a lovely looking model.

I bought a 33 in 2 tone green and I don't like green cars but in a short time I got to like it and if a repaint was in order I would do it the same coz that's how Dodge painted it and it would look wrong in my eyes even though few others would think so.

How did you get the 1200 mm tag anyway. Just curious,

I am a Bailey and in the Army in 1970 some wag called me Beetle Bailey and it stuck except that many added the 's' as in 'the beetles' so there you have it.

I often wonder about some user names and try to work out how they were coined while most are obvious>

Maybe we could start a new thread to here others.

I love your car by the way.

Regards Graham

[beetles]

OH SILLY ME ! your not any where near 4 foot. Just 4&3/4inches. Sorry.

Graham

[120mm]

Hi 4 foot (oh sorry, that should be 1200mm) , Good luck with the Dodge. It is a lovely looking model.

I bought a 33 in 2 tone green and I don't like green cars but in a short time I got to like it and if a repaint was in order I would do it the same coz that's how Dodge painted it and it would look wrong in my eyes even though few others would think so.

How did you get the 1200 mm tag anyway. Just curious,

I am a Bailey and in the Army in 1970 some wag called me Beetle Bailey and it stuck except that many added the 's' as in 'the beetles' so there you have it.

I often wonder about some user names and try to work out how they were coined while most are obvious>

Maybe we could start a new thread to here others.

I love your car by the way.

Regards Graham

120mm is in regards to the Main gun on an M1A1 Abrams tank. One of my former rides.

[1936 D2]

HA! I guessed right on the "120mm" name - (at least in my own mind).

I'm pretty sure the cloth item you have displayed in post #49 is a "cold weather grille front cover" or if rather thin, a "radiator bug shield" - either way, a rare accessory item. The wires keep the edges straight and flat, the clips on the sides go into the last outer side openings on the grille fins, and the snap is part of the mounting assembly. It has the Dodge grille emblem stitched on the front.

Keep the parts as a pattern and the metals for re-assembly, as some day you may be able to replicate that rare item.

See attached photo of a similar thing for '36 Dodges.

("1930" would still be interested in knowing about your original tool kit if one came with the car. Some day, photos of that stuff would be interesting too.)

Edited August 16, 2012 by 1936 D2 (see edit history)

[120mm]

HA! I guessed right on the "120mm" name - (at least in my own mind).

I'm pretty sure the cloth item you have displayed in post #49 is a "cold weather grille front cover" or if rather thin, a "radiator bug shield" - either way, a rare accessory item. The wires keep the edges straight and flat, the clips on the sides go into the last outer side openings on the grille fins, and the snap is part of the mounting assembly. It has the Dodge grille emblem stitched on the front.

Keep the parts as a pattern and the metals for re-assembly, as some day you may be able to replicate that rare item.

See attached photo of a similar thing for '36 Dodges

("1930" would still be interested in knowing about your original tool kit if one came with the car. Some day, photos of that stuff would be interesting too.)

I would say that is exactly what it is.

Since this is Iowa, and temps can get pretty low here, that would be a necessary item. Funny thing is, grandpa had a bunch of feed sacks in the trunk as well, and that is what they would've normally used then, since cardboard is the current thing we use.

[Guest bobostski]

Looks like your missing the crank hole cover. I hope you have it as it is a expensive part to repalace and hard to find. I've had one of these cars for 15 years and could answer any questions you may have.

[120mm]

Looks like your missing the crank hole cover. I hope you have it as it is a expensive part to repalace and hard to find. I've had one of these cars for 15 years and could answer any questions you may have.

Thanks for the offer. I'll be posting on here as I discover things.

As far as the crank hole cover, most cars I've seen don't have them. Since now I know what it looks like, I'll keep an eye out, but won't bother me if I go without.

[Guest 1930]

HA! I guessed right on the "120mm" name - (at least in my own mind).

I'm pretty sure the cloth item you have displayed in post #49 is a "cold weather grille front cover" or if rather thin, a "radiator bug shield" - either way, a rare accessory item. The wires keep the edges straight and flat, the clips on the sides go into the last outer side openings on the grille fins, and the snap is part of the mounting assembly. It has the Dodge grille emblem stitched on the front.

Keep the parts as a pattern and the metals for re-assembly, as some day you may be able to replicate that rare item.

See attached photo of a similar thing for '36 Dodges.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]150076[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]150077[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]150078[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]150079[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]150080[/ATTACH]

("1930" would still be interested in knowing about your original tool kit if one came with the car. Some day, photos of that stuff would be interesting too.)

He did or has been sending me e-mails and I am assuming still working on it, thanks for the consideration though

[120mm]

Tonight I started by asking gravity to assist my engine unsticking process. As you can see by the pictures, I put the rear tires on ramps with it in third. I figured if I could enlist Sir Isaac Newton for some help, there is no reason not to. I also took a suggestion and cleaned up the air cleaner. While it looked really nice on first blush, I found that corrosion had eaten some pin holes in the bottom of the oil bath. I'm wondering if it's worth repairing, or should I start looking for a replacement. BTW, all the gaskets to this point have been trashed. Are there commercial kits available, or should I just build my own? I've also attached some pics of the tools I found in the trunk of the car. I have no clue what to do with the jack looking thing. It does fit into the base, but haven't played with it yet and it doesn't look like a jack I've played with before.

[Guest 1930]

Air cleaner looks great, I would repair it, either solder it or seal it with an epoxy. You may find the same sort of problem with your oil pan.

Thanks for the other pics, Ill let Bob Bobotski answer the other questions if he will, he owns one of these cars so he would be a much better source of info. Looks like its coming right along though.

[MikeC5]

I bought a gasket set for my 25 from these guys and was very happy with it. Olson's Gaskets - Products

[R.White]

That bakery van is cute and the Erskine is a good story too. Thanks for the link, Mike, I think they would be great people to do business with. I found it particularly interesting because part of my Dad's job entailed building machinery for making all sorts of seals and gaskets; not just for for general use, but also the classic and vintage car market. The firm stopped making gaskets when the asbestos balloon went up.

Ray.

[120mm]

Air cleaner looks great, I would repair it, either solder it or seal it with an epoxy. You may find the same sort of problem with your oil pan.

Thanks for the other pics, Ill let Bob Bobotski answer the other questions if he will, he owns one of these cars so he would be a much better source of info. Looks like its coming right along though.

I figured I'd solder it, but then I looked at some of the excellent epoxies out there and changed my mind. Good advice on the oil pan. I'm familiar, but not intimate with oil bath air cleaners; does the big hollow chamber open up, or is it always just sealed? I didn't find a way to get inside it. Funny thing is, Grampa Herman had wired it upright to keep it from falling over, but once I figured out how to reassemble it correctly, it stands up quite well on it's own. It's missing a bolt which screws into the side from a bracket and has quite a few gaskets inside that helps it stand up. Plus, it has a compression joint at the base that wasn't being fully used.

I bought a gasket set for my 25 from these guys and was very happy with it. Olson's Gaskets - Products

That link is golden, sir. I will be sure to contact them.

That bakery van is cute and the Erskine is a good story too. Thanks for the link, Mike, I think they would be great people to do business with. I found it particularly interesting because part of my Dad's job entailed building machinery for making all sorts of seals and gaskets; not just for for general use, but also the classic and vintage car market. The firm stopped making gaskets when the asbestos balloon went up.

Ray.

My other grandpa, LuVerne, will roll over in his grave to hear that I "bought" gaskets. He was somewhat of a skinflint, and made everything himself. But Verne had a large array of different kinds of gasket material on hand, and frankly, I cannot justify buying the material just to be "thrifty". Not on everything, anyway.

[120mm]

Dumb question; what color was the air filter on this turkey? I cannot believe it was plain metal.

[keiser31]

Dumb question; what color was the air filter on this turkey? I cannot believe it was plain metal.

Black.

[1936 D2]

I am going to throw out a guess here... If that small round hole about 1/4" up the center section of the bottom, from the very bottom rim, is perfectly round - I would hazard a guess that this is NOT an oil bath air cleaner. The copper metal turnings in the top section are what cleans the air. That part can be washed out with kerosene, gasoline, or other oil solvent, lightly re-oiled and then put back on the car. The bottom part is just a chamber and also a receptacle for any oil dripping from, or sprayed out of the upper element. There usually is not much oil standing in there. Looks like in your case it was more water than oil! :eek:

If it is NOT a round hole, and you can see a lot of rough edge, it may then just be a rust hole and it IS an oil bath air cleaner. (But I suspect not).

It is a simple thing to repair these with solder and would be a typical repair for the time. It is more of a plumbing deal than a car deal to make that repair!

Oh, and John has it right as usual. It is the same satin-ish black that is used for all the other engine compartment stuff.

You know, I am not so sure if the Sir Isaac Newton thing will work. He also said that "an object at rest tends to stay at rest" too!

Edited August 17, 2012 by 1936 D2 (see edit history)

[120mm]

I am going to throw out a guess here... If that small round hole about 1/4" up the center section of the bottom, from the very bottom rim, is perfectly round - I would hazard a guess that this is NOT an oil bath air cleaner. The copper metal turnings in the top section are what cleans the air. That part can be washed out with kerosene, gasoline, or other oil solvent, lightly re-oiled and then put back on the car. The bottom part is just a chamber and also a receptacle for any oil dripping from, or sprayed out of the upper element. There usually is not much oil standing in there. Looks like in your case it was more water than oil! :eek:

If it is NOT a round hole, and you can see a lot of rough edge, it may then just be a rust hole and it IS an oil bath air cleaner. (But I suspect not).

It is a simple thing to repair these with solder and would be a typical repair for the time. It is more of a plumbing deal than a car deal to make that repair!

Oh, and John has it right as usual. It is the same satin-ish black that is used for all the other engine compartment stuff.

You know, I am not so sure if the Sir Isaac Newton thing will work. He also said that "an object at rest tends to stay at rest" too!

I think you are right. The hole is regular, and appears to be where a bolt screws in from a support to keep the air cleaner from falling over. And the guts are full of oily copper and there is this empty chamber in the bottom portion that appears to be there for centripetal force to remove additional particles.

Question I have is, why does the upper bit say this:

[1936 D2]

Ah. I was wondering about that - if there was a "fill" line someplace. So then I would say this is a "Heavy Duty" oil bath model. Not sure if it is specifically a Dodge product though. One of the other '38 owners can help out here. But it does then look like the upper half IS an oil bath style and the bottom rusted out part is just a receptacle for splattered oil from the upper half and mounting ring to seal it all to the carb. Nice set-up! Efficient.

If this IS a Dodge Heavy Duty air cleaner, then it would have been typical to have an oiled copper turnings chamber on the engine road draft tube also, right where it makes the 90 deg bend at the block.

[Guest 1930]

Just to keep in mind during your project, I like ( like really dosent express my true feelings for this stuff ) a product made by 3.M and its number is 8116.

A cartridge is a little pricey but if you dont use the mixing wand they give you but instead squeeze it straight out and mix it by hand it will go a much longer way.

I have used it to fill pin holes many times like this. You would be amazed at what you can do with this product with a little experimentation.

[120mm]

A short day today; I can't stand to let bare metal sit out and oxidize so hit the air cleaner with primer and paint. Nothing fancy, just keeping the rust off. Plus it's the first refinished part I did. Used some epoxy stick on the rusted through bits. And btw, those bits were in the upper, or oil part of the standard Dodge Heavy Duty air cleaner. I am looking through my Shop Manual, and this is definitely the factory Heavy Duty air cleaner. There was even a very faint etching of the sticker on the top plate and you could just read the lettering. No paint though....

Upon remounting it, I see why Grandpa used baling wire to keep it upright. With the interior gaskets shot/missing, it has not a hope of staying on with the simple crimp style connection. I will fix that with some shims and proper gasketing, I think. It was missing a bolt from the bracket to the air cleaner, and I just used one off another part. These Dodges only used like 3 kinds of bolt. Very efficient.

My oil breather doesn't look like the above unit. It just sits on the vertical air breather pipe, which comes from the crankcase and makes about a 10 inch run to a cup, and the air breather just pushes down on the cup using spring tension.

Someone earlier asked where the valved can on the passenger side firewall runs to; the answer is, it runs to a monster size car heater. We've seen as low as minus 40 degree F (which is, coincidentally, where the Celsius scale meets the Fahrenheit scale), and I imagine Grandpa Herman wanted his feet warm. Don't know if that was a different option on Dodge's or not. I gently cleaned off the glovebox, and opened it up to discover that it was a mouse nest box. The only thing of interest there was a generic admission ticket to somewhere. The mouse nest was all insulation.

I finally figured out how the door locks work. Amazing! Very elegant solution. All of the interior cloth is gone, damaged, destroyed, and worse, it smells very, very, very bad. Since one of my goals is to share this with my lovely bride, I am not going to attempt to save any of it, but would like to reproduce it's simple elegance without spending a ton. Especially the cool hand loops on the door frames, and the seat loop on the back of the front seat.

I also removed the abomination of a search light from the window frame. It was a cobbled together aftermarket piece of crap and replaced the mirror. Now, I need to find a mirror that looks right, or even one that is correct. As long as the mirror isn't horrific, I would be happy with something that isn't original, but looks like it could be original, if you get my drift. I also need to plug the hole it made in the window frame, and will probably employ some epoxy trickery to accomplish that.

One other thing: I soaked the jack in penetrating oil yesterday, and it went from being a rust frozen lump to working perfectly today. I still do not understand fully how it works, though I imagine it is friction operated, but it is one slick and simple jack. I made it go up and down until I understood it's operation completely. I need to sand blast it and repaint it, I think.

[Guest 1930]

Its is a bumper jack, would attach underneath the bumper, I am not sure that it was original for the car and I would not attempt to use it as they were always un-safe and the bumpers on your car might not stand the stress at this point.

I dont think I remember seeing a prettier glove box door by the way. Thanks for the pics, how would anyone go about restoring that I would not have a guess

Have some fun with it and spray a rag of WD-40 and wipe it down, I bet it will just be beautiful

[120mm]

Its is a bumper jack, would attach underneath the bumper, I am not sure that it was original for the car and I would not attempt to use it as they were always un-safe and the bumpers on your car might not stand the stress at this point.

I dont think I remember seeing a prettier glove box door by the way. Thanks for the pics, how would anyone go about restoring that I would not have a guess

Have some fun with it and spray a rag of WD-40 and wipe it down, I bet it will just be beautiful

I will. I am a bit chagrined with the recalcitrance of the stuck engine, but this project is going to be fun.

I have one other question; the top access cover in the right wheel well just won't come along. One of the hood clips took a moon bound trajectory when I sheared a bolt attempting to loosen it, is there a trick to keeping the lug bolts from just spinning without damaging the hood clips?

[Guest 1930]

I will. I am a bit chagrined with the recalcitrance of the stuck engine, but this project is going to be fun.

I have one other question; the top access cover in the right wheel well just won't come along. One of the hood clips took a moon bound trajectory when I sheared a bolt attempting to loosen it, is there a trick to keeping the lug bolts from just spinning without damaging the hood clips?

Im afraid you will have to dummy it down a bit for me please, I do not understand some of the words in the first paragraph and am not sure what you are talking about in your second.

Ok I googled recalcitrance and it says no such word but it did show...... Recalcitrant......which defines

Having an obstinately uncooperative attitude toward authority

Now I just need to figure out what obstinately means and I think I will be half way there

Edited August 18, 2012 by 1930 (see edit history)

[120mm]

Im afraid you will have to dummy it down a bit for me please, I do not understand some of the words in the first paragraph and am not sure what you are talking about in your second.

Ok I googled recalcitrance and it says no such word but it did show...... Recalcitrant......which defines

Having an obstinately uncooperative attitude toward authority

Now I just need to figure out what obstinately means and I think I will be half way there

Sorry.

In order to get to the valve covers, the shop manual calls for removal of the right tire, and the right access panels in the wheel well.

The bottom panel is bolted to the frame and is easy to get out.

The top panel has lugs that go from the engine compartment and are fastened with nuts on the wheel side. I'm assuming that the lugs are supposed to stay put and the nuts move, but the opposite happens. You can pop the clips off the lugs, I think.

[Guest 1930]

Sorry.

In order to get to the valve covers, the shop manual calls for removal of the right tire, and the right access panels in the wheel well.

The bottom panel is bolted to the frame and is easy to get out.

The top panel has lugs that go from the engine compartment and are fastened with nuts on the wheel side. I'm assuming that the lugs are supposed to stay put and the nuts move, but the opposite happens. You can pop the clips off the lugs, I think.

Ok I would not know anything about this than, it sounds like a similar set-up as on my truck but prob. not quite the same, you may have to wait for another 38 owner to hopefully chime in and looking at Bobtowski posting history I guess we may not hear from him again until maybe 2013 or so

Pictures always help and with those I am sure it could be figured out

Edited August 18, 2012 by 1930 (see edit history)